Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Got it Bruce.
Thanks

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Ford was first followed by Chrysler. They both packed the horsepower on most of the combinations. GM is following their lead. They are no more bogus than the combinations by Ford and Chrysler!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Are none of you guys with new cars willing to write letters to NHRA or the manufacturers? Makes me think you like beating up on the old cars. You do realize you have unfair advantages don't you.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

You honestly dont think that you have held an unfair advantage over other older combinations with your LT1?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

What are you talking about? Our motors are so underrated that there is no one but me running my combination and only one other person running Andrew's motor. When I first started with my motor 20 years ago it was a 11.40 car in F/SA. The 400 Pontiacs , the 390 Fords and the 340 Chryslers are easily as good as our motors. Before you open your mouth you should have at least a clue what you are talking about.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Greg, I believe what Gump is referring to is the abnormal amount of HP that were taken off your Combo's. E/S is a 10 lb Class correct? That would be 350 lbs you get to take out. Have there been any other Combo's that had that much HP taken off?

You also mentioned that the "390 Fords" were easily as good, but a while back "they couldn't out run a 327 Camaro in 1967". So which is it??
Confused in Texas....lol

RJ

Merry Christmas Buddy

Go Irish!!
Sorry Chad

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

RJ, my motor which is the 71-72 combination was rated at 330 in 71 and 255 in 72 and is now 315. Andrew's motor which is the 70 combination was factory rated at 360 and is now rated at 325. These two combinations are by far the highest rated old small block Chevys that anyone runs. My comments about the 390 pertained to 1967 and not today. We feel like we have good combinations but Andrew and I both have been out run heads up in the past year by a Pontiac and a Chrysler.

Merry Christmas to you and GO IRISH!!!!!

Oh, by the way, I can't believe a man of your advanced age is actually building a new car.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

At least it came in a car with a VIN# on it.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Now who sounds like a broken record. Do you actually think our motors are better than the 400 Pontiacs or 340 Chryslers? I absolutely do not think I have an unfair advantage.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

You honestly think any advantage Greg holds over combinations he competes directly with even remotely compares to the advantage the LSx 427/425 COPO holds over the old 69 427/425 L-72 Kevin and I run? :rolleyes:

Those COPO 427/425 engines hold at least 100HP advantage over the 427/425 L-72 that has 25-30 years of guys like the Sorenson brothers and McGlasson/DeArmond developing them.

Show me where Greg holds anything remotely close to that.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

So are you saying that they are not at all underated? You didnt get any gift? If someone went out and built your combinations and ran hard all year long, they wouldnt get HP? I will say honestly, that I dont care at all about your combination. It is up to the other guys in your class or any other class to push things if they want to. I will say that I really hate all of the 1000 ft qualifying that goes on.

My first love was a 1969 GTO. Before the new factory cars were announced I was looking at building a GTO. Eventually I will build several. Not because I think they are the best combination, but because I think they are cool.

As far as the whole VIN thing goes, I think that you guys are your own worst enemy. I really doubt that any of you are writing the NHRA to complain about all of the aftermarket parts that have been allowed over the last few years. If you had refused the any valve job, aftermarket rockers, any valvespring changes (etc.) I would maybe sympathize with you. A cool part of Stock used to be pushing the stock parts to their limit. Every once in a while a race was decided by those limits. It sucks when you lose that way, but to me, it is no worse than red lighting.

When I started racing Stock I purchased a 1995 Formula new from my local Pontiac dealer. At that time I sold or trashed about half of it. Right now I am finishing my 2010 Camaro. I started with a BIW, because there is almost nothing stock about Stock any more. I never asked the NHRA for anything, so I guarantee you it isnt my fault that a VIN is now irrelevant.

As far as the 427/425 combination goes. I would suggest that as delivered the number is pretty fair. I think that you can get quite a lot more out of it but it will take work and money just like any other combination. It is nowhere near as out of wack as a lot of the brand-X combinations. I cant speak for the other COPO combinations.

I think that GM has done their best to deliver an honest Stocker based on todays rules.

My record will probably stay broken.......

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Our own worst enemies? Says who? Can you new car guys do anything more to ruin Stock? What could that be? I know, you're going to ask the oem's for the universial RR500 turboshaft option if we continue to speak out about this little cabal. To be honest big guy we have nothing to lose. You guys have taken all you can get. For now!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

now, now, now, Lets not go putting this load of @#$%/ blame on people who wish to participate with a new car.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Well let's see, there is plenty of blame to go around!

"New car folks" includes everyone who is involved in this Stocker sham. This includes the oem's, nhra and the guys who make it all possible - you know, the guys who are plunking down all the money. None of this would work for nhra and the oem's if the new car guys were not there putting up the dough to take advantage of their generous programs. Wouldn't you agree?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

[ame="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rAlTOfl9F2w"]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rAlTOfl9F2w[/ame]

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Can the same ten guys just shut the F*** up for one day about old vs new and under factored combos. You ***** clowns are like little kids, just shut up. Its not even fun screwing with you guys anymore. And has for the four or five complainers that don't race, but want to chime in. BUILD A STOCKER or SSer, or don't talk.

Greg if you ran your car all out at races like the columbus sportsnats this year (where you gave up class to keep from getting HP) people may take your complaints a little more serious.

New rule Kenny no one can post about new cars unless your over 75 years in age or you went to 4 or more national events last year.

D. John, I love Mr Crabs he always knows what to say.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

The number as delivered is fair? So because it will only run 1.10 under from the factory it's not underfactored? You put a 3 speed and converter in one and go 1.40 under without taking a valve cover off! I don't care what kind of car it is, that shouldn't be possible.

Honestly, I would get no sense of accomplishment qualifying at the top of the sheet at 1.00-1.10 under in one of these cars. Now, if you build one right and run it hard, that's good. Some people are doing that with the new cars, and I respect that, but there are all sorts who aren't.

As far as not running my car out and getting horsepower, it would be crazy to do so. I don't have the luxury of outrunning my competition by multiple tenths where won't matter if I move up a class or two. If I go 1.10 under a couple times this spring, then go to Columbus in July, and run Randi Lynn heads up spotting her 70 lbs? No thank you.

You may not have fun screwing with us anymore, but I damn sure enjoy screwing with you!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

The Comp guys would love to see you jump in.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Andrew when you get ready to come to the big boy races you just let us know. And if you don't know what big boy races are just ask your dad he quit going to them a few years ago.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Charley,

This issue isn't going away. nhra is beyond hope and the oem's keep feeding these bogus cars into the system and we will keep up the discussion. So get used to it "big boy."

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Hell I have a hard enough time getting time off school to race divisionals. I've already began working on dad for Indy this year though, and if I do well enough at the Indy and Norwalk points races we'll be in Chicago.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Curious... What would you guys suggest the 2013 supercharged 5.0 be rated at?Currently it is 500HP. I'm not asking class because its factored at AAA which is top of the heap. But what would you consider a fair HP rating for the car?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Wouldn't it be nice if that was the only combination they had pushed into Stock

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

That was actually a serious question. What do people believe is a fair and honest rating for my car? 450-475-500-525-550-575-600-800?

What abou the other combos? What is a fair and honest rating in the eyes of the peers? What would you have rated them at if you were putting them in the guide? Again not talking class just HP?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Bruce the only issue is you guys crying all the time. All you guys are doing is beating a dead horse. We have two old cars and you don't hear us crying. When we bring dads LT1 car to the track in C or D we get killed by new cars. If we bring our 80s wagon out in O we get killed by under factored 4 cylinder turbo fords. But yea no bitching out if this camp. Life is not fair Bruce, I know this is a new concept for you but that is how life works.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I must be missing something. Maybe you could post something to back that statement up in regards to the 427/425?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Mark, that isn't to bad of a book actually. There are several books out there that are great. Mark, I do appreciate the book.

Leaders are readers and readers are leaders.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Absolutely, says I.

I didnt do one thing to change Stock. It was already changed when I purchased my COPO.

I didnt ask for or want any of the latest stuff that has been handed out. I was also for FX classes, but now that pretty much any Stocker is an FXer I really dont know what to say.

You allowed the new parts without a fight. The big three released new Pony Cars. They built versions based on the current rules just like they built combinations to fit the rules in 1969.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Gump,
A revisionist eh. You were for the FX cars? When?

You were up to your eyeballs in begging Chevrolet to get the Camaro into this mess. Have you forgotten all your posts on this subject? Chevrolet said for several years that they were not coming out to play in this mess and you and others kept after them. So yes you deserve as much of the credit for this mess in Stock as anybody else.

And as far as the specs for these new cars, they were dictated by Ford and then Mopar came in and now Chevrolet . nhra simply swallowed and took what was given to them. So you guys have alot to be proud of. You're all cocky now cuz you can run your little factory hot rods all over the little guys but what happens in 7 or 8 years? History is what happens. And your names will go down in infamy for bringing on the demise of a truly great community of racers. And we'll be here to remind you. If you like it or not. Enjoy yourself.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

"Victor showed up at Rockingham with this car at 8:30 Friday night and we made four runs with the car.

“For the little bit of time we had to test, and to go out there and win class, and do as well as we have done is a big statement for GM. It’s got a lot left. We haven’t had a lot of test time to get everything dialed in.”

http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-...n-stock-action

“This has been real good. We couldn’t be more pleased with how the car has been running,” Patterson said. “It’s still got the stock GM tune-up just like it came with when we picked it up two weeks ago. We’ve made some changes to the suspension and, so far, we couldn’t be happier.”

http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-...ts-to-the-copo

Final of CC/SA at Indy
David Connolly
60': 1.306
330': 3.833
660': 5.995
MPH: 113.37
1000': 7.867
1320': 9.646
MPH: 112.01

Todd Patterson
60': 1.294
330': 3.819
660': 5.958
MPH: 116.26
1000': 7.815
1320': 9.540
MPH: 121.01

Looks to be a mid 9.30 against a low 9.40 run if they ran them out.

"3:22 p.m. Weather conditions: air temperature 83 degrees, relative humidity 43 percent, barometer 29.16 inches, adjusted altitude 3,121 feet, track temperature 120 degrees."

http://dragracecentral.com/DRCStory....r2012#indextop

Is this enough backup for you?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Andrew these guys are a bunch of dickheads including Charley. They couldn't play on a level playing field if their life depended on. It.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Both cars your quoting are NOTHING like they came from Chevy.
There is NO WAY that is the stock GM tune! Or engine,cam, gears, trans, vert, axles, driveshaft and the list goes on... They will not 1.3x 60' stock!!!

The COPO cars are fast from chevy, but again NOTHING like Cazzette or Patterson.

I'm not arguing, it's just apples and oranges comparing what comes off the floor and the cars your talking about. They are more like a BIW ground up build. More like 200k car.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

So they were completely lying about using the stock GM tunes and doing absolutely nothing to the engine? Clearly they don't have the 1.80 low powerglide in them still, that is what I said, different transmission and converter. Why would changing a driveshaft or axles have any effect on the car whatsoever? They come with aluminum driveshafts and Strange 35-spline axles.

They had these cars for less than two weeks before Indy, not really enough time to do many in depth modifications, especially seeing as Cagnazzi was worrying about 2 pro stock cars as well.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

When you have money like that 2 weeks can be two years. Less rotating mass makes you go faster.


Like I said BS that is the stock tune!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

So, you're calling Patterson and Cagnazzi liars?


By all means, walk up to them and call them liars. Please, post your adventure to youtube so we can all enjoy it.

The new COPO cars do not come off the showroom floor, and those are real COPO cars, I've seen them both. They are not body in white builds.

Oh, and GM gave NHRA the rotating assembly weights, so your rotating mass goes out the window.

Evidently you didn't see Mike testing the original COPO car right after the 2011 PRI Show. I was there when the guys at ATI gave him the converters for each engine.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

We're not talking a few thousandths lol, there is absolutely no reason to change axles or driveshaft. But that's not the point.

These engines have not been apart (well they probably have been by now, but not then). Part of that shows how well they are built from the performance parts catalogs in the first place, but it also shows that there is absolutely no way in the world they should be rated the same as the old 427.


Well maybe you should ask Mr. Patterson if he was lying or if Competition Plus misquoted him.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Good god!

Not calling anyone a lier!

Never mind carry on!

By the way I own car 33 and will be racing next year. See you at the track.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Yes, Ross, you are. Cagnazzi and Patterson said they were running the factory tune up, and you claim they were not. That is pretty damned clear, you claim they are stating things that are not true. Pretty much how Webster defines the word "lie", or the word "liar".

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Ok then tell me why Dave Connolly says in the interview at sema with GM. (I will find the video when I get to a PC, on a iPad) I pulled up to the line and the tires come up, the way it came from chevy.
Here is the video hell it even says tuned by Brian Macy... Turn up the sound. That car has a three speed and a lose vert.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91mgz6b7AU&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]2012 COPO Camaro Testing - Victor Cagnazzi Racing, Dave Connolly and Brian Macy - YouTube[/ame]