Re: Factory experimental
 

The first or worst red light isn't even close to the same thing as what could happen here, sense these new cars are going to affect the AA thru B classes then it should concern these guys, but if you really want to rock the boat then go ahead and kill stock by making all cars be newer than 2000 then poor old Eddy and Bushwacker can feel the pain these guys are going to feel.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Here's a link to an article with pics of John Calvert's new car:

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/forum/c...tang-1911.html

Re: Factory experimental
 

Here's a video of what looks to be Calvert's car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX604vEP5PI

Re: Factory experimental
 

13 2008 Cobra Jet Mustangs were delivered by Varsity Ford today. All 13 are NHRA legal for AA/S and A/S.

http://9500rpm.com/shelby/varsitycj01.jpg

http://9500rpm.com/shelby/varsitycj02.jpg

http://9500rpm.com/shelby/varsitycj03.jpg

http://9500rpm.com/shelby/varsitycj04.jpg

http://9500rpm.com/shelby/varsitycj05.jpg

Re: Factory experimental
 

so 1/4 of these cars went to one dealership? yea that seems right

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce/Alan,

I'll lay even odds that these cars will be begging for their own heads-up class in short time. You have to give Ford credit, they have really outdone themselves this time....talk about overkill!!! All I can say is, "good luck getting these cars down the track at full steam!" I'll believe it when I see it. These cars will have to have at least a 10.5" tire and that means their own class.
I was just getting started on one of those paper cars that Larry Hill loves so much... that project just got ****-canned.
Good luck racing these guys till they get their own class and unfortunately that won't happen till one or more of them hits the wall out pass the 300' mark. It should be interesting to see how that supercharger responds to blimping the throttle at the stripe.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Chuck, I give Ford and Roush all the credit in the world, they've created an impressive monster. I really look forward to seeing them race. I just think that much like the T-Bolt, and the HemiCuda and HemiDart, among others, they should be the class they fit, not just dropped into a class because they want to be there.

And if Chevy came in with a 650+ HP (under rated)LSx stuffed in a light Camaro, I'd want it in a class it belonged in. In fact, Chevy did a poll about the Camaro in Stock, and the majority voted for an LSx that actually fit AA Stock, as opposed to one of the big supercharged 650HP engines. Of course, that may never come to pass.

Re: Factory experimental
 

The Challengers?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Allan wish I could have got that post # 428 .. The Orginal Cobra Jet .. Wow I got a little Ink too. Just reading guys . Sure would like to have a chance to drive one with the right trans .. Stick Shift .. Let's here more .. Red Le Blanc

Re: Factory experimental
 

Red, I really think you are one of the guys Ford should have stepped up to help with a new CJ.

Re: Factory experimental
 

FREE??? Someones handing you a line of s***. a CJ Mustang is 70K and no one got anything for free!

Re: Factory experimental
 

1664SSJA do you own a race car ??????????????
if so what class?????

Re: Factory experimental
 

He's in the "I used to race S/S" class.And that's fine.But there comes a time when anyone without a stake in this should just read and let it go.Before anybody says I have no stake in this situation I,and
everyone else who pays to run Stock is affected by these ringer cars.Wher they qualify determines who I end up on the ladder.
This is just hypothetical but if these cars end up running wild through AA and NHRA loads them up with HP (where it 's obvious they should have never been allowed in the eliminator) if I was an AA class racer
I could very well lose a championship,top 10 national and or divisional position.NHRA would just say
"Never mind".
You might not agree with me but like Alan R. and most others we use our real names.I guess the no
namers either are embarrassed to use their names,or maybe there are warrants out against them.
Either way,grow up.That includes Party Guy you nitwit.


Ed F.

Bushwacker:What the hell is with you're obsession with the first foul rule.I've raced for 30 years and most of the time I've been the first leaver.It's never entered my mind to bitch that thats unfair.I'd be more concerned about a lazy Nat'l tech dept. who wont straighten out the AHFS.That's the real problem.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Thanks ED for clearing that up I didnt think he had a dog in the fight

Re: Factory experimental
 

let em run no more bitchen. wish i could by a cj even if it is a furd still legal thow

Re: Factory experimental
 

I was hoping to get the 442 post.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I went to a Drag Expo today and there was quite a bit of discussion through out the show on these cars.Stock Eliminator will FINALLY be getting some media coverage I think.This is good for everyone involved in Stock Eliminator.Add a little weight,and get out of AA/SA or AA/S.I can run in F/SA at 3950 with my car.The weight actually makes the car more consistant.I do think that a 700 horsepower supercharged car in Stock is ridiculous,but be glad that NHRA hasn't allowed John Force to run his Funny Car in Stock Eliminator........................................ .....YET!

Re: Factory experimental
 

MPR,
I believe Alan was referring to the 4 Hajek cars that have been farmed out to some very talented racers.

Re: Factory experimental
 

He will pull the chute at 1000ft. :)

Re: Factory experimental
 

Chuck R.,
The automatic CJ's seem to be doing ok on the 9 inch tires.

I went to an outlaw race last fall and saw a bunch of crazy guys going 210 on 10.5 tires. These CJ's have the best folks working on them and I bet they will get them sorted out.
Thanks.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Everybody has to make an honest attempt to stay on topic and no taunting posts.

This old thread has become a big diesel truck and we have to keep it between the lines.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I'm sorry but I don't believe there is one class out there that doesn't have that one killer combo that no one could hang with heads up. Usually it is a very odd combo inwitch they are there own worst enemy so they never take a hit. I'm a N/A V6 pickup and I run P/SA. My one killer combo I would never want to run is that Turbo 301ci V8 Pontiac Firebird. No matter what the factored HP is does anyone think a Turbo 301ci V8 sportscar should fall in with V6 trucks and station wagons? The best thing that could happen with these Mustangs is let them come out and get some heads up races even better still with each other. It will all shake out. Just think how madd yall would be if they would only let one of these out instead of a dozen. Like it or not this is bringing the MFGs and public back to sportsman racing. I'm a Chevy guy but hats off to Ford on showing interest in more than John Force(with his hemi powerplant) or NASCAR.

Re: Factory experimental
 

With all the talk about getting the power down. Are they running the OE ECU's? I believe our 01 GT had traction control of some sort. Push button deal on the dash to disengage. If it's in the oe computer (ala e-shift) can it now be legal? Evan any input on traction control in Ford OE ECU's?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce, I do not remember saying anyone got anything for free. I think the closest I got to saying that is saying Ford should have helped Red LeBlanc get one.

Re: Factory experimental
 

We have more HP than you. The excess weight really hurts parts. The guys with the Corvettes are bending rear suspension pieces running minimum weight in A. Talk to Calabro and Fasano about that. None of us could run B, at least not without killing drivetrain parts.

Stock will get about 10 extra minutes coverage from this, all year, if one of those cars wins a big race. NHRA couldn't care less about Stock getting any coverage. Stock gets maybe 30 seconds or so in the Sportsman show. We made a very small splash on the coverage for the Gators, they showed us when they came back from commercial, called the owner/driver by name, and showed a big wheel stand. I think that was the only mention of Stock I saw other than showing a quick shot of the winner all year.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Dealing with the TOP/STK and Jr/STK I have to congratulate FORD for continuing their dedication to Drag Racing and pushing forward in the economic climate everywhere.
This is STK and SS chance to re take a part of the "SHOW" at NHRA and other events. NHRA will bend its rules or change them to get these cars a place to race as even THEY see the "SHOW" value of Heads Up Sportsman racing. NHRA needs it financially again to hope spectators will come to see these cars race show up and pay admission. If a wise man is in the business he will exploit it.
Between the BIG 3 they need to get a Camaro and a Challenger that can fit the same class together without a 500 lb ballast problem to be sure the "SHOW" can be complete again.
Racers need to work with this "SHOW" idea if at all possible for the benefits that will be there for everyone.
Look at FORD, they even stepped up to give a Prize for a ford winner. More sponsors to come back or support this new car show.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Alan,
You're right. I just checked again. MPR's post came right after one of your posts and assumed he was responding to your post. Wrong.

Re: Factory experimental
 

This is not about these cars not being Chevrolet cars. There are plenty of the Chrysler cars that are getting bulldozed by this. Not just the 396, 427, and 454 Chevy cars are taking a hit on this. What about the Hemi cars and the Max Wedge cars? Yes, they'll get blown away by these new cars. What about the guys with the old style Fords who don't have the cash get a new CJ or Roush car, and some backing to go with it? Or don't want one?

As much as anyone might want to make this a problem with a favorite brand, it simply just isn't. It's about a new car coming in to an established class it does not belong in and running over everything in sight, regardless of brand.

The idea of "wait for them to get factored, wait for the AHFS to get them" just does not work. Everyone here knows how long it takes the AHFS to get around to a new combination and bring it in line. Sometimes it takes 5 years or more, and sometimes it just doesn't happen at all.

Yes, factory involvement can be good for the class, and for the sport in general. But not when a factory takes advantage of the situation and sends a ringer in to completely eliminate competition. It does not matter what factory. There was a time when sanctioning bodies did not tolerate or accept this behavior, and some still do not. However, some sanctioning bodies have been consumed by greed, and no longer have any real regard for the grass roots of the sport.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Guys,
These CJ's don't represent any great change in the way nhra is going to run their "show." This deal looks to be a cash'n carry deal. Sure nhra will publicize the CJ's but there will be little exposure for the rest of the category. Top Stock and Junior Stock are prime examples of what can happen to a class when the fast cars take over. It dies!

This CJ deal is different than finding out a killer car has slipped through the cracks of the ahfs. Currently, a killer car in any class may be 20 horsepower soft and prehaps nobody saw it coming until a racer looked at the sheets and said wow this looks good. More power to him/her. And usually there are only a couple of these killer cars sprinkled around the country and they are raced by blue collar sportsman racers. No, this CJ deal is about a car that can roll off the trailer and run below a very tough national record on it's first attempt at a serious test'n tune. This car is not 20 or even 30 horsepower soft. It is 80 to 100 horsepower soft. It is so soft that Ford won't produce any horsepower numbers in writing. They are marketing an ultra high tech, Injected/Supercharged car and don't want to produce a dyno sheet for nhra to see. Nobody should be able to walk into nhra and say well the car may be a little bit soft but the ahfs will correct the numbers. That would be a fraudulent proposition and should never be allowed. And these cars will run all over the country; with more of them coming out this fall. Like most of the racers on this site, I can't wait to see them run in person. Some of these CJ's have a great team owner who wants to run these cars all over the country and I'm darn happy to have him, but he needs to run his cars in the right classes. Running these Rockets against 40 year old cars just doesn't work and I think the public will figure that out as well. Ford and nhra will come away from this current deal with a lot of bad press. Obviously nhra and Ford can do pretty much what they want but both should be careful about what they are asking for because they may just get it.

From what we have learned so far, this car has been able to slip bye nhra's vetting process or nhra is going plug this car into regular classes without seriously studying it's performance. It's not a difficult excersise to put these cars into classes where they can be evaluated and yet still enjoy all the pleasures of class racing in Stock Eliminator.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I have to get back into this to bring up a point that hasn't been made yet. I am the worlds worst businessman so maybe someone on here can enlighten me on this. Why would GM or Chrysler dare to jump into Stock with a new model when they are almost guarenteed to get their brains kicked in by the Cobra Jet? I have heard that the race Challengers aren't being built, is this correct? If so, why aren't they? Could it be that their SRT8 6.1 Hemi which is carrying a HP rating of 420 would look downright lame against a 4 valve supercharged car rated at 425 HP? To me, NOT building them looks like GOOD business sense! It seems smart to wait for the Hurst Challenger with the supercharged 6.1 to go against the CJs. The problem with that scenerio would be what can they rate the Hurst cars at when the rating on a base 6.1 is already 420? Maybe 425? I don't think that even Compton would buy that one! What about GM? Let's see, we can build a base 6.2 2008 Vette but it's at 430 HP! That's right, look it up, the BASE car is in the guide at 430 HP! I've raced some of the WORST combos in the guide (by choice) and I gotta tell you that even I wouldn't race a 2 valve, cam in block, naturally aspirated 376 ci motor against a 4 valve, overhead cam, blown, 330 ci motor. Where I'm going with this is I don't believe that Fords entry into Stock with this obviously WAY under rated CJ is going to help bring GM and Chrysler back into it. It's just not good business sense to go racing and get creamed!

Re: Factory experimental
 

To Alan and Bruce's point, creating a specific class for the new Mustang, as well as a race version of the new Challenger and Camaro, was exactly the concept that was looked at prior to my departure from NHRA. As a matter of fact, there were several meetings with representatives from all three manufacturers and they were all on board with the concept. The class was to be called "American Muscle" and allow the three American manufacturers a chance to showcase their latest performance cars. This type of a concept would most likely breath a renewed interest by the auto manufacturers in promoting products they actually sell and as Dick Butler stated, would give Stk and SS "a chance to retake part of the show".
Not sure what happened to this idea, but perhaps NHRA could take another look at it going forward.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Its called you left Len.

Re: Factory experimental
 

OBTW, all of the hype about Garlits racing a Challenger in Stock? It ain't happening unless they hurry up and get the Challenger in the guide. No guide, no race.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I wonder if there was an internet forum back in the mid 1950's. What we would be looking at? All the flathead guys screaming about those evil overhead valve motors?
In the 70's we had 2 years a go fast racing. In division 1 there was the Hershlow and Morlock Pontiac firebird super duty 455. (You could not get parts for the motor without a vin number). It was factored at some rediculously low number. And could run a week under. They were not in our class but, this was go fast racing. They had a stock eliminator race every week at Englishtown. And the only time we stood a shot at winning was when they were not there.
We belly-ached about them a bit (everybody did). But we worked our butts off and learned a lot of invaluable info. Now REMEMBER I said worked our butts off not spent our butts off.
Back then nhra had a 10 year rule on stockers. Think about how many stockers there would be now if they had kept that rule in force. Then I could see a true top stock (rwd cars) and a jr stock (fwd cars)
The Mustangs Camaros and Firebirds etc. would be running each other. and the SLOW (turd) cars could run each other. That would have cut the number of classes (to make a lot of you very happy} Kept factory involvement ( 10 year rule).
I'm not advocating a change like this but this is what could have been. All this complaining could lead to something you really don't want.
It seems like easiest way to beat someone is on the keyboard, not on the race track. When I ran the turbo cars, people lambasted them (and still do) I posted exactly how to make them run for very little expense. No black-magic, hocus pocus, hide it in the trailer stuff. Still many of you said I shouldn't be allowed to race. Even though my car was more "stock" than any out there. It was fine to come rolling into the track with a $100,000 "A" stocker in a tractor trailer rig. But "Arties" $2000 car should be banned.
I think these "new" cars will dominate the class for a while. Didn't the LT 1's do the same?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Art,
You are right they will dominate for awhile. How long is awhile? None of us know. 10 or 12 years later and the Lt1's are still tough. Why shouldn't a car be properly factored from the beginning? And you can bet your bottom dollar that the racers from the 50s would have been all over the Internet if it had been available to them. Human nature hasn't changed.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Alan, Billy and Len,
All very good points.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce what I was refering to was that when the overhead valve cars came in to play the sport changed, multivalve heads and compressed air are here to stay. They aren't a passing fancy. Do you realize how many street driven (for real) 9 second cars are out there
A couple of days ago I bought a shortblock from a guy with a Neon, he was from Florida, I am from Georgia, So we met in the middle. The car he drove to bring the motor to me is his daily driver, it had a cage and a parachute, as well as a NO/2 bottle. I thought this was one of those showy type cars. WRONG . Well he runs mid 9's at 145 mph That isn't going to happen easily with the 2 valve N/A cars.
Just like the overhead valve motors took over from the flatheads. It seems like we all want progress but only if it suits our needs.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I don't know how many times I've seen "work harder on your combo" spouted on this forum. I guess if a statement like that applies to someone that is a few tenths off his competition it should apply to everybody that is a second off this new Mustang. Maybe that will be NHRA's argument?

Regardless of who needs to work harder or what the HP rating of this Mustang or even the Challenger should be, the fact is none of these cars are regular production vehicles available to the public for street duty. That has been the premise for NHRA Stock Eliminator competition since day one. If Dodge & Ford want to offer these special vehicles for street use with EPA & NTSA approval, fine, let 'em race in Stock. But since the manufacturers have by-passed all the stringent requirements for street certification, then these vehicles shoould be mandated strictly to Super Stock. No different than the Hemi Darts & Barracudas, SS/AMX and other factory race cars of the past. Some vehicles such as ZL-1 Camaro's were street approved so they should be allowed in Stock.

And I guess the argument should be that all factory SS packages of the past should now be allowed in Stock Eliminator. Looks like that is where the bar is now. Wonder if NHRA ever thought of that?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Art,
"we all want progress when it suits our needs"?? No, I think most of us want equitable progress. We are not trying to be selfish. Check the blue print sheets on the 425/500 motors; if you haven't already.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Wow! I agree with Jeff Lee! It MUST be cold in Hell today!