Re: Factory experimental
 

Do you guys remember Prostock in the 70's with the factoring for the Hemi, the canted valve motor, the inline valve motor. the short wheels base the long wheel base, Etc.
Well that all got started with the Grump griping about the hemi's (not saying the man wasn't a genius at drag racing). And the hemi's coming back at them with wheelbase. etc.
It got to be a mess remember the Tiajuana Taxi? (I personally liked it better back then)
It's not new by any stretch of the imagineation that the factories maniplulate the numbers back before you could change classes or add or subract weight. the weight breaks were usually right on an even number the 1970 challenger r/t convertible fell right on 8.50 at 440 horsepower. Coincidence???? I think not.
On the GM side, Bobby Warren woud get factored and just change body style. What about the Ford pencil cars?
This whole thing is nothing new it's just an updated version.

Re: Factory experimental
 

This conversation always seems to deteriorate with personal agenda items with the overal good of the Sportsman racing considered LAST.
Bracket mentality on one side adds its concerns and "Right to race" idea held by racers from the edges of the rule book and Spec sheets.
People ask for the "RIGHT to race" this or that combination and are allowed to do so. People push their issues. Cheap combination to race at a NATIONAL event, A points meet or wherever. Some want to win class over similar cars by being smarter, better driver or .... Then the MONEY card is played.
Can ALL the racers be made happy? A resounding NO is the answer. NHRA looks at ITS GOAL for Sportsman racers and just DO IT. That is what the racers miss is they are doing just that. They own the tracks , hold the events and racers KNOW the rules, Know how it progresses and with computers can just keep stirring up sentiment Pro or Con NHRA.
SRAC was an example. Formed It . Didnt like what it had to say . IGNORED IT. Until a new owner or financially powerful group forms a group with THEIR agenda and SET RULES and FORCE conformity to them dont expect NHRA to listen...seriously.
Now everyone is upset because new blood is coming into Stk or SS. Many 1/2 stories or 3rd hand information. Poor motor choices by the factory, poor tech expected.
What has changed? NOTHING People just have computers..
I hope someone can encourage a change from the top. I know Len tried.
Maybe the Factory input and enticement will help for a while....

Re: Factory experimental
 

Len is correct, the American Muscle class concept was proposed to the NHRA as a place to showcase the new Camaro, Mustang and Challenger using current production power plants. This class was however intended for Super Stock not Stock. The push from the big 3 for such a class had died off a bit since GM racing has cancelled its Stock/Super Stock 09 Camaro program and Fred Simmonds has retired.
I still just don’t see why the NHRA would create a special class in Stock for the Mustang when they fit naturally into A/S & AA/S. The 425 HP Modular Ford motor is 330 cu. in. and that’s a far cry from the 427s it may be racing against. It has been classified by the NHRA and they also see no reason to add a special class because they are Stock. These are not paper or pencil cars as you can plainly see in George Wrights earlier post. Until this combination show a clear cut superiority at the races (not hear say or rumors) I think the case is closed.
I race a GT/EA Grand Am with an injected motor. There are still guys complaining about having to race against injection. The US car manufactures have been using injection exclusively for more than 2 decades. Might just make more sense to separate the 40 year old cars from the new cars by the racers that don’t think they can compete with the new. Nostalgia? What made Stock so cool in the 60s were new Stockers of all brands racing against each other. I don’t remember ever seeing any 40 year old stocker in the 60s at any National Events.
I wonder why anyone would edit their thread. Last night after I got home from Varsity Fords Cobra Jet delivery gathering I read a post indicting Ford has given these Cobra Jets to selected racers for free. I posted :
________________________________________
FREE??? Someones handing you a line of s***. a CJ Mustang is 70K and no one got anything for free!

Why did the post I was responding to get edited? Just a couple of post earlier the FREE word was being used and now it’s gone! This thread has lost all its credibility and I think I’ll just read it for the pure entertainment value as it is pretty much a joke and filled with untruths. If you are 100% sure the new Mustang is going to kick your butt then keep posting BS like you have. I guess whenever the Challenger shows up the same guys will be at it again. I wonder if a thread to get rid of the whiners would be cool, on second thought it would most likely get edited as well.
Well I’m done trying to post the facts; I’ll just read and have fun doing it. It was great to see Len Imbrogno is still reading this stuff, Len, give me a call sometime and we can get caught up! In the mean time you can keep in mind one of the signs of getting old is the reluctance to accept the new. Do you still listen to 60s music? I do but it’s oldies just like the cars you think your fighting for. Time to face it, it’s 2009!

Re: Factory experimental
 

Amen to that, good post Mike.

Re: Factory experimental
 

463 posts with people upset over a car that has NEVER competed at an NHRA event. Be interesting to see how far this one goes after Pomona.

Jim Foley
STK1220

Re: Factory experimental
 

Good Post MPR.... It is time for fresh topic and outlook.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Sorry..but i think they will allow those to everyone instead of a new class... Talk to you later Chuckie

Ford has allready got(bought) the exposure..I dont see Chrysler running thier legs of to go out against these Fords with thier current combos...

Re: Factory experimental
 

I watched 3 of the 4 Hajek cars run yesterday. When they get these cars hooked up, they will be trouble. They haven't yet.

Re: Factory experimental
 

MPR,
This case is anything but closed. We fully understand evolution and we fully understand how the nhra process for classification is supposed to work.

There are a lot of people who are concerned about these cars. nhra can create a class in the wink of an eye. No problem for them - why are you so against such a minor change? There was some very minor house cleaning of several posts that were way off topic or contained taunting language. The post you referenced may have been one of those.

The Cobra Jets tested on Friday, in a closed session, at the same track and we were told that one immediately went under the national record. No one has recanted their comments. They may have traction problems but they have already demonstrated their performance. Give them the opportunity to perform on a good track with a National event prep and both nhra and Ford will have some explaining to do.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce, Where are you getting your information?
John Calvert was in Ca on Friday .Gary Stinnett was driving in from Kansas.
It was cloudy and rainy here on Friday.
Those cars weren't within 2-3 tenths of the record on Saturday

Re: Factory experimental
 

Mark,
Sounds like I was given some bad information because I certainly wasn't in Arizona. I will accept reponsibility for what I post here. And stand corrected if wrong, but I just spoke to one of the folks who was supposedly in the loop and he said not a drop of rain hit the ground on Friday. He will try to contact the person who gave him the information and re-confirm the Hajek car's test results from Friday. I will post when I hear his response.

Sent over by a friend: http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...az0261?when=-2
It was described to me as a Chamber of Commerce Day. Please notice the zero rain total for the day.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Just reading this but had to clarify one thing...........So each of the racers who will campaign these new cars paid $70,000 dollars for one of these?

Re: Factory experimental
 

NO. The MSRP was 70K. Brent Hajek reportedly paid close to half a mil for the two at B-J.
He has since bought a few more too. He'll sell you one for 200K

Anybody?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Wow, a 200K stocker? Makes your Mustang a bargain, Mark. Newer cars are gonna be expensive but even this seems a little over the top. Racing is no different than any other endeavor, those that have the money and power, WILL have the money and power! Another cliche, if your at the top of your class, you'll not remain there forever, "sooner or later, someone bigger and stronger will come along and knock you off that perch". That may well be what happens with these newer cars. Is it right, wrong or fair, that's not your or my decision, it just is what may be about to happen.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Only one Cobra Jet was auction off at Barrett Jackson. It was one of two pre production units. That car is not being raced at the Winter Nationals. Brent also bought 10 of the 50 regular production Cobra Jets. 4 out of those 10 Cobra Jets will be raced by Calvert, Ronzello, Waldo and Stinnett. There are actually 54 Cobra Jets, 2 prototypes, 2 pre production and 50 regular production units.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Pre-production car seems like an investment. Not really interested what was "sold" at B-J. Been there twice and I know what goes on behind the scenes and what these TV cars actually sell for. Don't know Hajek. What I was wondering is did any stock class racer actually pay $70,000 for a car to build and race? Thanks George for your reply. I have seen your cars and know the level of professionalism and detail that they present.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Brent Hajek owns the 4 cars. The four drivers are just that, drivers not owners.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Here is a post on Yellow Bullet about the cars going to theWinternationals with pictures explaining a little bit about the cars:http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...=103594&page=4

Re: Factory experimental
 

Because Ford sent a letter saying the cars have been detuned to 335HP like the original CJs.
That site reads like a press kit release from FOMOCO.

Ed F.

Re: Factory experimental
 

4 Cars 2 Sticks and 2 Auto My guess is AA/SA AA/S A/SA A/S why dominate 1 class when you can dominate 4 !!!!

Re: Factory experimental
 

C'mon Ed, mustangs or not, those are beautiful cars. And a factory coming into it so hard like this?

When they showed the drag pack challengers on here a year or so I was drooling, not because I'm a mopar guy but because the thought of factories getting into it again would be awesome. (plus they are beautiful cars too.

C'mon! BUILD THE CAMARO STOCKER CHEVY!!

Re: Factory experimental
 

The Challengers dont seem to have Pinocchio writing spec sheets to NHRA,the Mustangs are beautiful,expensive
SS cars.

Ed F.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce, It DID rain in Glendale in the morning. I wasn't at Speedworld, which is about 30 miles away. It stayed overcast,with humidity at 3 X the norm. Same thing Sat til about noon. The point about the weather is that it was slow on Saturday and probably even slower Friday. I don't know for a fact that those cars didn't go down the track on Friday. I don't know who would have been driving them either.
If those cars were de-tuned after Friday, they were still spinning the tires on Saturday.
Seems hard to believe they could have been 2-3 tenths faster.
I'll find out if they went down the track on Friday, and will report.
I'm just reporting what I know.
This is the "no spin zone"

Re: Factory experimental
 

Mark,
I don't think either one of us is trying to spin anything. Obviously, I was many miles away and unable to confirm in person. So I have relied on very reliable folks to give me information as it becomes available. I was told that this was a closed session (nobody but track employees and the folks who were testing were allowed to be on the grounds) on Friday and that the track was well prepped for the folks who were testing. I would imagine the track was not as good on Saturday which I'm now told was a regular test'n tune session. I don't know which car was being tested or who was driving. I was told that the crew was jubilant when the time slip was made available to them. I'll work on it some more as well.

Re: Factory experimental
 

The thing that really bothers me about this is that it's obvious that Ford did this with hp numbers they knew were bogus and that's like stealing. The other thing is that NHRA let them get away with it without protecting their own members from unfair competition. I was about ready to buy a new Ford Edge, I think now I will look at GM's.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Greg,
So who was stealing when they set the LT1 (305 factory) to 275hp and the LS1 (310 non ram or 325 ram air factory) to 305? NHRA or GM?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Chuck, If you remember Pontiac was the official car of NHRA when the LT1's first came out. I had to run against them in my 67 Camaro with a 350 power glide. You talk about making a car irrelevant. The failure of NHRA to properly factor these cars led to creation of the fuel injected classes. After 14 years and 66 horsepower the LT1's are no better than a lot of combos but look how long it took that to happen. At least the Firebirds and Camaros were regular production cars and not aftermarket built racecars with motors that don't come in anything else. Do you think we should go through another scenario like the LT1's or the Ls1's? I don't.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Chuck,
Do you think it is okay to do it again, now, because it happened in the past? Two wrongs make a right?

How about we try to stop, or at least slow, the down hill slide?

Re: Factory experimental
 

I agree with Chuck.

Greg, please let me understand you better. Are you are saying it's not OK for Ford to under-rate a vehicle (which has been done since the inception of our beloved class), but it is OK for GM to claim a car that was never built (1998 LT-1 F-body)? Or clearly under-rate the LS1? Is this not cheating the system (for the purpose of manufacturers championships points)?

BTW, the Ford Edge is great vehicle and at last check Ford is offering X-plan-type incentives for any NHRA racers who want to purchase a Ford. You can contact Jesse Kershaw at Ford Racing for more details. What is GM or Mopar doing for racers?

Remember, it is still the NHRA's party and it can re-factor a combination as it sees fit. So, if this car is really that fast NHRA can act accordingly. We can type all we want but it is moot until the cars run in Pomona.

Evan

Re: Factory experimental
 

Evan I' m saying exactly that. When they put this new Mustang out with bogus numbers it's like stealing from other racers who have to race against it. One thing you are right about is that NHRA can do what they want without any transparency or without regard to how it hurts their own members. How it affects their organization as time goes by remains to be seen.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

One other thing is that who cares if a Firebird is a 97 or 98. It's basically the same car.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Now that just doesn't make sense when you clearly admit GM did the exact same thing in your next post.

And what difference does it make if it is an "aftermarket built race car" as you claim. Didn't everyone who has an LS1/LT1 take them to the "aftermarket" and make them into a racecar? Who cares where the work is done? They built the required number as per the NHRA rules. And we all know there are countless cars out there with engines that were not available from the factory. This is not one of them. They were available in all 50 cars as per NHRA rules. When one actually gets down the track then you might have an argument on the HP factor, but nobody that can do anything about it will be listening. You should know that better than anyone.

Jim McBean

Re: Factory experimental
 

First the new Mustang idea is good for the sport if used wisely by NHRA.
Arent they part of the plan for a racing Camaro project(cancelled by economy) and the challenger by Chrysler to compete again in one class?
Why wouldnt NHRA put them by themselves? no chevies being built to race, no Chryslers yet? They are ready to run and need tested against something? See how it changes with Challengers arriving.
Body in White Camaro may be produced and used yet.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Check, the LT1 was NEVER 305 HP in anything. it was 300 in the vette but had a different cam and better breathing. It was 275 93-95 and 285 96-97. The LS1 cars WERE factory rated at 305 hp. get your facts straight before you start accusing stuff. I don't have one of those cars and I will agree that 305 was a very soft rating for the LS cars, however that IS what gm advertised to the public

Link to LT1 engine specs
http://www.lt1engine.com/tech/lt1-en...n-power-specs/

Re: Factory experimental
 

Jim I don't think that rating the LT1's at 275 hp was right either, or the LS1's at 305. Just because that happened shouldn't be justification for this bogus hp rating on the mustang.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Greg Hill:
"One other thing is that who cares if a Firebird is a 97 or 98. It's basically the same car."

Evan,
You are quick to complain about NHRA allowing a new front end on the LT-1 Firebirds and Camaro. I think we have other issues that are more problematic than this. Explain to me how this is a performance advantage. As for the new Mustangs I think they look great, and I have nothing against them; they are in the books so they get to play despite what anybody says about them.




Jimmy Hidalgo, Jr.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Guys,
Pro or Con Factory Experimental, Number 500 will be the last post for this thread; providing it is on topic and does not taunt. It was one hell of a ride. We have had a very spirited debate and everyone has had an opportunity to express their views.

Thank you to everyone who participated in this debate and especially to Kenny for providing a place for all of us to air our opinions.

Good luck in 2009

Re: Factory experimental
 

Chad,
Not accusing anything, you just back-up my observation that we were 'officially cheated' by NHRA for underrating the LT1 and LS1. But that was Ok since Pontiac was the 'official' sponsor and they threw those cars in with us. Now that 'maybe' Mopar and Chebbie has backed out of the American Muscle class because of the financial situation, Ford has not. And this is what Ford has advertised to the public for these cars. So apparently NHRA decided to throw them in with the rest of the classes. They probably did that so they wouldn't have to add a new class for one car and it would be better racing if they ran other cars instead of just each other. You disapprove because it affects you ... sorry about your luck ..

Re: Factory experimental
 

Okay, let's close it down and wait a week and a half and see what happens at the track.