Re: Chapter 15???
 

hey bill i think it is time for you to retire!!!!!! Its getting old and all you do is complain!!!!!!!!!!!!! Incase you have not gotten it yet nobody! Let me repeat that................. Nobody cares that you think the rules are unfair !!!!!!! Could you hear that ? Wait turn up your hearing aid!!!!! I dont care what you think and from reading this post most people dont either!!!!!! Lay it to rest and move on to something else that is not complaining.

Re: Chapter 15???
 

[jimi..hey bill i think it is time for you to retire!!!!!! Its getting old and all you do is complain!!!!!!!!!!!!! Incase you have not gotten it yet nobody! Let me repeat that................. Nobody cares that you think the rules are unfair !!!!!!! Could you hear that ? Wait turn up your hearing aid!!!!! I dont care what you think and from reading this post most people dont either!!!!!! Lay it to rest and move on to something else that is not complaining.]

Jimi,

I believe that you are a cowardly, disrespectful POS, who doesn't use their real name to post..

Ed is some of the above, but at least he uses his name........

Bob

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

That's no joke, and the benefit of the cars with ground effects proves that...another topic for another thread.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bob.I've read a lot of your posts and agreed with some of them and not others.I haven't
gotten to deep into any subject on Classracer,
gave my opinion and then tryed to give some levity after that.
This red light thread is different.If Dedman was an anyway affected by this rule as a S/SS racer I could see his un ending posts.He is a bracket racer.He says he bracket races.He
does not race a class car in the Lucas Oil sportsman series.If he wants to bust NHRAs balls in the Summit Racing Series,more power to him.Why should he try to get rules changed in a series he's not a participant in?Answer that for me.
As far as labeling me,I could give 2 $hits less.I'm a big boy and I've been called worse.Like you said,at least I use my name,unlike Bill's new no name supporter.or I should
say athletic supporter.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Isn't T/SA a bracket class ??? Surely not a class car.....what only TWO of them in the nation ? You and some guy from Missouri named Bob Shaw !! :-)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

John Kelley, sometimes the more you post on here, the less inteligent you seem.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

John,theres more than that for your inquiring mind.Cap't Jack,Billy Nee's Nees' Pieces,
Billy's new GP,I believe the Siebenecks can run T and others.Get your facts straight before you make your snarky remarks.
And now with the new class runoffs it doesn't matter if I'm the only T car.I'll run all the other single class cars.Tune in to Drag Race Central at Englishtown.If I win class I'll send you the box the Wally comes in,newspaper and all.

Re: Chapter 15???
 

Bob, I'm pretty sure I know who Jimi(B/SA) is. I think he runs an old Mopar in B/SA.

I think it's B, but maybe it can run A/SA and C/SA too.

I know this is shocking news to you.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bill, before this gets carried away. I would really like to know how many times in the last 10 seasons this "unfair" situation has occurred during all the rounds of competition. I'd be willing to bet big money the probability is less than 5%.
I don't know if you have done the research or not. I do know that in order to be taken seriously by the competition committee, you will need to present some sort of empirical data to support your arguement. If the probability isn't at least 20%, I don't see any reason why NHRA would regard this as an issue.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Chuck.I'll bet it's less than 5%.How many times,if there's a spot of over say 1 sec. do you see the faster car leave right after the slower guy bulbs?Some guys see the red and decide to leave right away instead of standing on the 2 step/convertor.Sadly this whole thread was a waste of time and energy.But I'm sure someone won't agree.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Chuck,
Regarding the "5%" you bring up...

I am not just referring to the fact that you can lose a race to a car that should not have won, if the rules for red lights were identical to breakout rules (worse infraction loses.)

That is ONE issue, and is a legitimate one, I feel; Why should people be racing under TWO sets of parameters (First infraction for red lights, and worse infraction, for breakouts) when there's no longer a reason for that kind of inconsistency?

Can you tell me?

However.... that is a part of the problem, but not THE problem.

The real problem (and though it's related, it's different) is:

The rule, itself. And, what it brings about.

The current red light rule makes it possible for a second-to-leave (quicker-handicapped car) to be awarded a"round-win" after having done NOTHING for it, but to stage his car.

There is NO WAY a first-to-leave car can EVER enjoy that advantage.

Doesn't matter if it's a B/SA car racing an A/SA car, with a handicap differential of .012-sec... if the first-to-leave car red lights, the A/SA car goes to the next round without EVER having to face the same red light jeopardy that the first car faced.

How can anybody with the ability to analyze ANYTHING, on a comparative basis, think that's fair???

It was implemented in 1963, as a matter of necessity but that doesn't apply any more.

1. With the electronics (NHRA) has available, nowadays, it's a situation that is totally unnecessary. With today's technology, the 'tree's computer can withold the first car's red light until BOTH cars have left the line, compare the infractions, and declare a winner, just like the breakouts are handled.

2. EVERY race (heat) that is run, unless it's a heads-up race, embodies the possibility for this inequity.

So, it may or may not result in a "first red light" victory for the second car to leave, but the potential is ALWAYS THERE. THAT is the inequity that the first car faces that is unnecessary, unneeded, and unfair... (and, outmoded.) The potential for unequal red light jeopardy.

The actual wins that a first-to-leave car might be awarded because the second-to-leave car bulbed worse, may be a low percentage, but the second to leave car NEEDS to face equal red light jeopardy every time he's involved in a handicapped race, or there exists the potential for a "FREE RIDE", for that second car to leave.

This "FREE RIDE" is something that flies in the face of rules parity, and as long as the potential for it still exists, there is no parity. Or, fairness.

The worse red light rule simply guarantees that EVERY CAR will have the same chance to red light. Every time.

Anything less is favoritism.

If any of that can be proven wrong, please do so...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

There are instances when two competitors race under two parameters. For example:
1) SS is allowed trans brake with auto trans yet stick racers do not have same advantage. The trans brake user is afforded some adjust ability towards a better light.
2) Some classes are awarded a more favorable index factor than competitors with the same weight per HP factor. One example is SS/J vs. SS/JA.

Is this fair Bill? Oh, I forgot, this wouldn't affect you because you do not partake in the Class you have your nose in.

Once again, while you repeat your mantra dozens of times, You do not respond to my inquiries unless berated to do so. So once again, why are YOU not taking this to NHRA? Your commentary suggesting your calls would fall on deaf ears because you do not have an active license is meaningless. You have identified yourself as an active NHRA member (which surprised me) and receive ND publication. So you have as much voice as the minions you are trying to recruit. As their leader, lead!
You remind me of the whinny *****'s that complain about our country and politicians yet can't get off the couch to vote.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I find it almost comical that no one here opposed to Bill's thoughts have been able to give him ONE good reason why this rule should not be changed! What some of you are doing to him is medically called a form of Offensive Thought Repression Syndrome (OTRS). What that means is a person is offended by another person's thoughts but doesn't understand (or can not process) why he is offended to said thought. The result is he lashes out by saying things such as "shut up" or "you suck" or something demeaning but unrelated to the subject of the thought. This type of syndrome is seen in politics more often. You get the idea though I hope.

It's probably these types of answers and attacks on Bill that made me think about the "Worst Red light" instead of the "First Red Light" rule. I have not heard (read) one good intellectual, factual, non-emotional answer to his proposal! Where am I wrong here? JIm

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff, if you really believe that your two examples are unfair then I would encourage you to proceed, as you have told Bill to do, and attempt to change them. Start another thread and discuss it with other racers. Get some input. HOWEVER, what do those examples have to do with the situation Bill has brought up? Regardless, please stop the name calling! It's childish and beneath you. Jim

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jim, take a step back. A lot of the responses Bill gets are his own fault. He's not lily white as you seem to think. There's plenty of condescension and accusatory nature in his posts. After a while, the whole thing gets tiring.

Add to that the fact that we have so many much more serious issues facing class racing, and some people grow quite weary of an outsider (perceived or real depending upon your view, since he has ZERO intentions of racing class) with something of an attitude and agenda of his own attempting to force change on them.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Alan, I agree with you, you probably know I have had several heated discussions with Bill myself. And I know as well as anyone on here (you also) that sometimes it is difficult to retain your composure when you are constantly being called stupid childish names.If people would stop taunting him he would probably stop posting.I would say to those who are tired of the thread, stop reading it! Nowhere does it say you can't discuss more than one issue at a time on the forum. There is no reason to continue the childish banter and name calling. Be civil. If you disagree with Bill, state that and your reason (if you have one) and move on. Let Bill do what ever he feels he needs to do. Are you guys going to Atlanta? Jim

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Pretty simple: The one that cuts the best light and runs closest to his/her dial, wins 100% of the time. What is not fair about that. I'll call that "Winners Logic", and as I stated before, I believe that each of us class racers intend to cut a good light and run close to the dial each and every time we run. Now, this is what I'll refer to as "Losers Logic", Oh Sh--, I went red and lost......OH maybe, with a lot of luck, the other guy will screw up more than I did!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

How many times have I heard it said "I'd rather be lucky than good any day"! Jim



.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Again, what does that have to do with Bill's proposal? That being equal red light jeopardy for both cars.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jim, we broke the orange car earlier this year, the green car is down for some adjustments and minor repairs, and the other stocker is getting some serious TLC and refining. We hope to have two cars at Bowling Green for both the Open and the NitroPlate Combo. Other than the Bowling Green combo, we have not been out this year. We hope to change that after next weekend. It'll be later in the year before the orange car is ready to go again.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

OK. I do love that orange car!!! Jim




.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

LOL, it will return. We just hurt it pretty bad trying some new stuff. We're working on it, the transmission and converter are done, the heads are in the shop. We've just got a ton of stuff on our plate, with three cars, and two houses being remodeled. Hopefully, this month will get us to the point where we can start a real comeback and finish the season on a high note.

You really should make the trip up for the Open at Bowling Green, it's always a great race, a good time for all. With the Open, and the NitroPlate $5K to win Combo, we should have a great car count, and the people at Bowling Green have been great to us.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Are you suggesting that because NHRA is in the business of giving technical advantages to some cars, but not others, that should negate the efforts to equalize the rules regarding
red lights? What has one to do with the other?

NHRA can, and WILL do whatever they want, to hand out goodies that may or may not increase an individual car's performance, but that has nothing to do with the utilization of rules for red light protocol that affect everyone, equally.

Get another, more appropriate analogy; that one doesn't work.

Here;s a question for YOU:

WHO would be damaged, strategically, or, in any other way, by the implementation of a worse red light rule?

I am trying to figure out just what it is that you object to so vehemently, about a rule that would not cause a change in anyone's driving practices, would be virtually unnoticable to fans, would be the same rule for EVERYBODY, and would harm nobody's racing program. It's reason to exist is that for the first time, EVERYBODY would have the same chance to red light.

You have chastised me for not answering some of your questions from time-to-time.
Don't be guilty of the same thing, with this one.

Who would be harmed by the change to this rule?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

More to the point...
"Is this fair Bill? Oh, I forgot, this wouldn't affect you because you do not partake in the Class you have your nose in."

No, it's not fair, but we are talking about procedural rules here.... not "FAIR" in other venues.

The subject of this thread is matters pertinent to red light rules.... if you want start a thread about something else, have at it... but that's not "us."


Your comment that, "Once again, while you repeat your mantra dozens of times" ... LOL! I repeat it because you don't seem to comprehend when I say, "I run a Bracket car, which follows the letter of NHRA law when red lights are prosecuted. That makes ME, Bill the Bracket Racer, a victim in exactly the same way it does you, Jeff, the Class Racer whenever there's a first red light issue.

Get it? Your comments, like, "this wouldn't affect you because you do not partake in the Class you have your nose in" make me think that you don't.

Your "red light experience" is EXACTLY the same as mine. Why WOULDN'T I want it changed? Why wouldn't YOU, for that matter...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

This has been entertaining reading for sure but maybe the moderator could move this thread to the bracket racing forum so some of the S/SS racers won't have heart failure. Work on getting it changed in bracket racing first then the others will follow. :eek:

Jeff

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I always liked to work on my car and my driving so that I was good at it, damned good at it. I don't believe in luck. Luck is where preparation meets opportunity. I believe that you have an active role in your destiny. I always took the attitude that as my opponent, I was going to do my best to take the round away from you. If you prevailed, you earned the win. I'll choose good, damned good over random luck anyday.

David Nickens is a good friend of mine and helped me immeasurably in Comp. I remember the first points meet we ran together. We were looking at my computer print out in his trailer and he said "You need get it right because in the 3rd round your gonna run one bad S.O.B." I said "Who's that?" He said "Me".

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

OK Jim and Mark,since you seem to like Bill's proposal why don't you either get a petition or send an email or call to HQ and make a proposal to change the rule.You might as well since he won't.
Maybe it will finally put a fork in this thread.
.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Mr Ed. You read my mind. I was contemplating the same response. I just wasn't sure when I wanted to jerk the noose.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ed, I never said I felt strongly about it changing the rule. I said that with my current car , I can put up with it, whether they ever changed it or not.
All I'm trying to do is stimulate meaningful dialogue. I think we may need another 3-400 posts to get there..
Besides, I can't petition anybody. I'm not even an NHRA member.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

More likely, it will put a fork in the whole idea,because, NHRA is now run by bean counters who only understand ONE THING: The bottom line."

Having to come up with a million dollars a year JUST to feed the two top druids (Uncle Tom and his accomplice) in the face of declining revenues that are the result of the general economy, declining car counts, poor attendance, LOTS of anti-NHRA sentiment, and gas and Diesel fuel prices, they (NHRA) are likely not in the mood to enact a rule that is NOT going to earn them a red cent, EVER, while costing them whatever it takes to get the proper software installed and working on all those NHRA computers. Add to all that, the likelihood that the poor bastard that would have to make a decision on this rule, would undoubtedly have the classic "deer in the headlights" eyes, after trying to figure it all out...

No, to hit NHRA with a petition on this idea at this time, would be suicidal.

Even if they supported the idea 100-percent, they're VERY UNLIKELY to make such a change, given fiscal conditions and their foreseeable financial future.

Petition???

Not a good idea. A good way to BURY it, probably.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about it.... LOL!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

And what would that accomplish?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

There are more bracket racers than S/SS racers. Get the bracket crowd to back the change and the others will follow. For the most part S/SS is a bracket race until two cars in the same class face each other. Just sayin'.

Jeff

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Well played Jeff, well played.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bracket racing by guys smart enough to make one run fast enough.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

So true. S/SS racers have to stay within a set of rules that a regular bracket racer doesn't. They have to be smart or have deep pockets or both.

Jeff

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Not always smart enough.......Mostly its how deep their pockets are in todays world.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bill,
I HAVE stated who this would negatively affect. I thought I made it pretty clear. It revolves around a guy building a car per the rules for an ADVANTAGE. Smart racers build cars that way. Racing is not all "cumbayaa" or however that word is spelled. Anybody that doesn't look for an advantage is a fool throwing his money away so I don't want to hear "it's a personal agenda". Nobody has ALL the advantages but when you stack enough of them up, you have better chances of winning. And winning is what this is about. And yes, that is not always fair.
I'd re-write it all or maybe you should look up the post I made regarding this but I have to get back to work. All I know is I made the post and you either did not see it (doubt that) or chose to ignore it. As it didn't fit your mold, that would seem plausible.

And my post about class index differences and tranny breaks was not to re-direct this thread. It was an illustration that there ARE "unfair" (perceived or real) situations in racing and this issue of first or worst red light is not exclusive. If I cared enough, I would take it direct to NHRA. And one day I will. I will post it here along with my letter(s) to NHRA. I stand on my own two feet and am not easily deterred.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Oh man! I must have missed it also. I have read every one of the posts you wrote. I can't for the life of me recall the part about your stating exactly who the rule change would hurt! I know I and several others have asked continuously but I sure can't remember you or anybody else clearing that up. I have better things to do than to sort through 52 pages of posts looking for a non existing post. Please restate your answer for us idiots. Take your time. Maybe you can sway me back to your way of thinking! Thanks. Jim

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff, our "problem" in communicating about this issue is that we have two different mindsets regarding how the game is played.


You are content to maximize your chances of winning using the rules as they have been in effect for the last 48 years. In that vein, I don't understand why you don't campaign a A A /S car, which would never have to leave first. As long as you're going to squeeze the last drop of advantage out of this system, why not take it to the limit?

I am not content to operate under a system that gives an advantage to anyone... unnecessarily, and would prefer to see it changed to one that is fair to everybody, regardless of class.

Just two answers to the same question.

Right now, it looks like your system will continue to work for you for a long time; I don't see this first red light rule being changed anytime soon.

Good luck with that.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

As far as your bringing up trans-brakes and indexes, I was only half right. The trans brake issue IS a rules-based subuect, but the Index situation is not. I guess one out of two ain't bad... :)