Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Speedracer,

You can not attempt to asess HP on "situations." That is why we have rules. nhra can't have an established system of rules and then say oh what the heck this guy looks like he should have gone slower than that so we are going to go outside of the system and give him a whack. It is that kind of old school thinking that allows nhra to get over on us. It is nhra's job to enforce the rules fairly and that includes giving advance notice of any changes to those rules. When you think about it, that is their only real obligation to us. Well, rules and a safe place to race. I'll leave it at that.

Michael,

You keep coming over an butting into nhra business but I guess you have your points. Just because you have noted that it has been mentioned before about all of the power improvements allowed by nhra does not dilute the impact of those improvements. And yes nhra is trying to put the horse back in the barn after firing it up with high dollar feed.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

NHRA Stock and Super Stock Horsepower Factoring System

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11/22/2000


As the 2000 season comes to a conclusion, final data input has been completed for NHRA's new Automatic Horsepower Factoring System for Stock and Super Stock categories. Prior to its implementation, racers are asked to review the proposed new system as outlined below and provide feedback. The system is based on actual run data from qualifying at NHRA national events. The data-based format will provide the ability to automatically calculate average performances for any class and/or engine combination in Stock and Super Stock.

The system will begin building the 2001 database at the AutoZone Winternationals in February with the first automatic adjustments going into effect in late May.

"As many racers are aware, there are a few combinations and indexes that are currently so far out of line, we will make some adjustments prior to the start of the new season," said Len Imbrogno, Director of Sportsman Racing.

NHRA tech officials are currently preparing the list of those to be adjusted and will publish the list the first week in December for racers to review.

Details of the new system are as follows.
1. Horsepower increases/decreases and index increases/decreases will be automatic.

2. Only National Event Final Qualifying sheets will be counted for horsepower adjustments. All other national event runs, as well as divisional and national open runs, will not be included.

3. Runs of 1.25 seconds or more under their respective index, as well as runs .25-second or less under their index, will trigger an evaluation. (The use of 1.25 under for both Stock and Super Stock is the result of both eliminator brackets having the same overall averages. Also, the 1.25 number may appear liberal to some racers, however, it is a starting point from which a change is possible once the system is in operation).

4. Upon evaluation, the database of qualifying runs will be used to calculate class average, and engine family average. If the class average or engine family average is faster than 1.00 second under index, or slower than .50-second under the index, a change will be initiated.

5. The horsepower adjustment will be based on a stepped percentage of horsepower as follows:

INCREASES REDUCTIONS MODIFIEDS
1.25 - 1.34 under = 1.25% .50 - .41 under = 1.25% 1.25 -1.34 under = .05 sec index
1.35 - 1.44 under = 2.25% .40 - .31 under = 2.25% 1.35 -1.44 under = .10 sec index
1.45 or greater = 3.25% .30 or less = 3.25% 1.45 or greater = .15 sec index


All adjustments are rounded UP to the nearest full horsepower, even if the fractional portion is below .5 horsepower. For example, 2.15 horsepower becomes 3 horsepower. The quickest run is used to determine the adjustment percentage.

6. In cases where an adjustment renders a particular vehicle ineligible for the Eliminator, exceptions will be granted to permit the vehicle to carry extra weight. A hypothetical example: Certain model Camaros, with a 460-horsepower 454, will be unable to make GT/AA if any horsepower is added to the engine, because of the rule that states that no more than 250 pounds can be added to the original shipping weight in SS/GT. In this instance, NHRA would permit the vehicle to carry more weight in order to remain in competition.

7. Even though adjustment is automatic, adjustments will only become effective three times per year: May 21, August 6 and January 1. For instance, if a Stock engine records a run quicker than 1.25 under at the Mac Tools Gatornationals (March 15-18 in Gainesville, Fla.), the adjustment will not become effective until May 21, the Monday after the Matco Tools Spring SuperNationals in Englishtown, N.J.

8. Adjustments will be effective for the specific car model being evaluated. For instance, if a 220 horsepower/283 receives an adjustment because of runs made in a Malibu, it will only get horsepower in the Malibu, not the Impala.

9. Horsepower reductions for vehicles that do not have a run on the database will still be handled through written requests. Requests will be reviewed and any reductions will be effective on the same three dates as automatic adjustments. Requests must be received no later than 30 days prior to a review date, otherwise they get bumped to the next review date.

Any questions or comments should be directed to Jim Skelly via email at JSkelly@nhra.com, via fax at 626-914-7551, or in writing to Jim Skelly, NHRA, PO Box 5555, Glendora, CA 91740-0950. Racers are encouraged to give their input.




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Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Im not against stock racing being a performance based class,,,,it SHOULD BE,,,but all Im stating is that there need to be some realistic way to make nearly everyone happy,,,,,its is true, there are not enough heads up runs,,,,,,,,,it is true, with all the additions in the last few years, the indexes are a little soft and the AHFS dont work like it was intended


Im not sure what is triggering this change,,,I did a limit research,,and I dont see any slow S/SS running .10 under winning any money

no matter what you change ,unless they outlaw every class but one,,,,this class will alway be a bracket class,,,it doesnt matter if I change my dial in or they set it for me in the tower,,,it alway will be bracket racing

In our sport,,,(bracket style racing),,,MONEY ruins it,,,,,so be carefull,,,,,I see it easier to beat the good bracket racer then the guy that has you covered by .30,,,,,,,,and that seems what this wanted change is all about,,,,,,keeping the bracket racers out...dont make it so expensive that ordinary Joe cant afford to do it


I have an idea,,,,,maybe it souds stupid at first but think about it before you reply


what about throwing the AHFS out the window,,,,,,,no points or money for where you qualify,,,,,,dump that money into class run off wins...maybe give a few points for winning class and only have a HP review every 3 years...right now..there is absolutley NO REASON for one to go quicker,,other than bragging rights,,,,and at least with a 3 year review and more money and points for winning class,,,,it would be some incentive to go quicker without the imediate worry of having to throw an extra 100 pounds in the car,,,,,,,

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Here is the 2003 version that states all runs count. Am I reading this wrong or did it change again after this clarification?

Beginning in 2003, as a result of racer input, the AHFS will now be based on the fastest run by competitors in qualifying and in class and final eliminations.
This says







Automatic Horsepower Factoring System explained
1/31/2003


Entering the 2003 Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series season, one of the more significant issues being discussed among NHRA Stock and Super Stock racers is NHRA's Automatic Horsepower Factoring System (AHFS). The AHFS was designed to mathematically evaluate horsepower ratings of Stock and Super Stock cars objectively based on actual on-track performance. By far, the NHRA technical department and the Stock/Super Stock Horsepower Committee receive more calls and e-mails about horsepower-related issues than any other.

Since its inception in 2001, the AHFS program had been based on actual run data compiled from final qualifying at NHRA national events. Beginning in 2003, as a result of racer input, the AHFS will now be based on the fastest run by competitors in qualifying and in class and final eliminations.

During the NHRA Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series season, horsepower reviews are done in three periods: national events 1 through 7, 8 through 15, and 16 through 23. Each period is compiled individually; data is not cumulative.

After every national event, final qualifying and eliminations data is sent to NHRA's information technology department, where a central database is maintained. A copy of the run data is then forwarded to the Stock/Super Stock Horsepower Committee for review. The committee must then analyze the run data and note any runs of 1.15 seconds or more under the index, therefore triggering an automatic review.

The following elements are then applied in evaluating possible horsepower adjustments for cars that run 1.15 seconds or more under the index:

Any run of 1.15 seconds or more under the index at NHRA national events triggers an automatic review. Upon reviewing the data, the committee looks at the engine average and class/engine averages where the combination is available. If the engine family average or the class/engine average is found to be faster than 1.00-second under, a change will be initiated.
In reviewing runs of 1.15 seconds or more under the index, the database of all qualifying runs for the engine combination being reviewed are put through three screenings in search of an engine/class average faster than 1.00-second under. These reviews include the following:
Engine family average for the specific engine combination being reviewed. All cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed are included in this screening.

Class average in the class utilizing the specific engine being analyzed. The class/engine average of the specific combination in the class that triggered the review is studied.

Body style of the engine combination being reviewed. Adjustments are only in effect for the specific car model being evaluated. However, in many instances the body style is classified by the OEM auto manufacturers' definition of "platform;" i.e., the Camaro and Firebird body are both based on the same platform and therefore considered the same with regard to body-style classification. In some instances, more than one body style will trigger a review.

The screening phase of the horsepower review is a rather laborious operation and must be done manually because no program exists that can differentiate and/or recognize a specific combination from the varying possible classes, engines, and body styles. As one Stock racer noted, it took six hours to gather the data required for him to personally review his specific combination.

To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is an evaluation in Stock for the 305-cubic-inch, 215/241-horsepower, fuel-injected Camaro during races 16 through 23 in 2002:

Two K/SA Camaros running this combination ran 1.214- and 1.187- second under the index, triggering a review by the committee. As per the procedure outlined above, the overall engine family average is analyzed first. Upon reviewing the engine family average made by the 305/215/241 FI combination, 10 runs had been recorded by Camaros (2 in K/SA and 8 in L/SA) with a total engine average of .945-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 1.00 under, the combination did not warrant a horsepower adjustment.

The next step, per the procedure outlined above, is a class/engine review. The class of the car that actually triggered the review was K/SA. The class review revealed that K/SA had a class/engine average for the combination in question of 1.201-second under, therefore surpassing the 1.00-second-under requirement and signaling a horsepower adjustment for all 305/215/241 FI Camaros.

An important element to note and one most often misunderstood by racers is that although a K/SA Camaro affected the change, the L/SA 305/215/241 FI Camaros that run this combination also received a horsepower adjustment. The reason is that a specific combination can run in more than one class based on NHRA rules; therefore, all cars with the specific engine combination and body style will be affected.

Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the Stock/Super Stock Horsepower Committee must determine how much horsepower needs to be implemented. The committee has devised a sliding-scale formula based on a percentage of horsepower rather than a set amount.

As noted by NHRA Stock/Super Stock horsepower analyst Curt LaShure, "If you take an H/FS car with a horsepower weight break of 27.5 pounds per horsepower versus A/SA at 8 pounds per horsepower and gave each only five horsepower, A/SA would get a bargain."

Horsepower percentage adjustments or index changes are as follows: Under Index Increase Index Change
1.150-1.299 1.25% -.05
1.300-1.399 2.25% -.10
1.400-1.499 3.25% -.15
1.500 or greater 3.25% -.15 (immediate change)


Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run for the combination being reviewed is used to determine the adjustment percentage.

In 2002, the Stock/Super Stock Horsepower Committee began reviewing runs of 1.50-second or more under the index as soon as such runs were made. Runs at divisional events and National Opens are included in the 1.50-second-or-more-under analysis. This was done to better react to any out-of-line indexes or under-horsepower combinations. Therefore, at all such events, a 3.25 percent horsepower adjustment or index reduction will be initiated immediately. The decision to adjust horsepower or to reduce the index will be at the discretion of the Stock/Super Stock Horsepower Committee.


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Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

The first "final" version of the AHFS was put on the nhra site on 12/11/2000. nhra changed the1.15 under rule to national events only after polling all the racers with a majority saying they did not want the -1.15 number to be used at open and division races.

In the version listed above the ahfs is implemented for the the first round of class. The first round of class is always our last round of qualifing. It does not state all runs will be evaluated at national events.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Jeremy writes:
>> NHRA has done many thing's to make the Bracket Racers happy. (...) I don't think they will be happy until they have all of Stock and Super Stock and performance will be gone.

I'm a bracket racer, and I supported the notions of combining categories, whether it be sticks & autos, full pound weight breaks, or whatnot. Most of the dissenting opinions about that came from "real" class racers! I'm never been one of the really fast guys, so it would hurt me as much as anyone else, but I understand some of the bonuses that could come from fewer classes and more heads-up runs... and like many people are talking about, more heads-up runs likely contributes to a more effective AHFS.

Bruce writes:
>>You keep coming over an butting into nhra business but I guess you have your points.

Thanks, I think. Opinions either make sense, or they don't. I think people forget that I am partners on an NHRA-legal Super Stocker, and own an NHRA-legal FWD car, which I will hopefully have back on track next year. Many people seem to forget that I have raced NHRA, and I'm also the one that started NHRA.com along with Phil Burgess, and the one that started the NHRA Division 1 website. Tidbit of trvia: Len Imbrogno used to race, and he used to work for IHRA. There's a wide range of experience.

I choose not to regularly compete somewhere and regularly complain about it. That's not just sanctioning bodies. There's a local track that has an awesome facility, but they run an incredibly slow program, and their announcer didn't inform & entertain. My gf refuses to go to that track with me anymore. I made some simple suggestions as to how they could dramatically speed up the program, draw (and keep) more spectators. Nothing changed, so instead of complaining, I just took my business elsewhere. I do have a vested interest in ALL of class racing, and when NHRA's program suits me, I will actively support it.

Suggestions and constructive criticism are far different from saying, "This sucks!" I appreciate that many folks have expressed opinions here and offered suggestions. Even if we don't all agree with one another, people are thinking and trying to be helpful.

Bruce writes:
>> Just because you have noted that it has been mentioned before about all of the power improvements allowed by nhra does not dilute the impact of those improvements. And yes nhra is trying to put the horse back in the barn after firing it up with high dollar feed.

I agree.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Don't want to get involved with Bruce and Lens bickering or dhould I say discussion. I'm just trying to make sense of this whole HP AHFS thing and the constant clarifications/changes. I took the liberty to cut and paste three different versions that I could locate in the archives and have been published by NHRA Tech Dept. as officialy "explained."

This is the current version taken from the NHRA website today:

A few things I noticed:

1. The counting of ALL CLASS runs has been deleted or "Clarified" from this version.

2. There is no mention of altitude runs in any of the versions.

Shouldn't they be converted to sea level and used for averaging too? I'm not sure if this would be good or bad

3. Seems like "Family of car type" has broadened to include any car with same engine and trans.

I'm not sure if this was the original intent of the AHFS.


Automatic Horsepower Factoring System (AHFS) explained

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The AHFS is used to review and evaluate runs in Stock and Super Stock for possible horsepower adjustments. The review is conducted twice per racing season. The two reviews are compiled individually so the data is not cumulative. Runs included in the AHFS database are limited to final qualifying runs (Q data) and final elimination runs (E data) at NHRA national events only. (At events where class eliminations are run, rounds beyond the first round of class are not included in the AHFS database. Only the first round of class is part of qualifying and therefore is part of the "Q" database.) The "Q" data and "E" data files are the official data gathered by the NHRA timing system and processed through the NHRA Information Technology department. NHRA "Q" data and "E" data are the only data files used for the AHFS.

The first review period includes data from national events 1 through 12 and the second period includes runs from events 13 through 23. The following procedure is used in reviewing run data:

Final qualifying and elimination runs of 1.15 seconds or more, under the index, at NHRA national events will trigger an automatic review. (The combination must make at least two runs of 1.15 or quicker before a review is triggered to prevent a "one time fast run" from triggering the system.) In reviewing runs of 1.15 or more under the index, the database of runs for the engine combination being reviewed are put through three screenings as listed below. The screenings will look for an overall engine family average or class/engine average faster than 1.00-second under. Runs of .50 and slower are not included in calculating the engine or class/engine averages:


Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed are included in this screening.
Class/engine average where engine is run: The class/engine average of the car running the specific combination in the class that triggered the review is studied.
Body style and transmission type: Also considered in the above two screening processes are body style of the engine combination being reviewed and transmission type. Adjustments are only in effect for the specific car model being evaluated. The body style are generally classified by the OEM auto manufacturers' definition of "platform", i.e., the Camaro and Firebird body are both based on the same platform and therefore considered the same with regard to body-style classification. In some instances, however, more than one body style will trigger a review. With regards to transmission type, if the class average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for classes with the type of transmission triggering the change. However, if an engine family average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for all transmission types.
If either the engine family average or the class/engine average are found to be faster than 1.00-second under, a change will be initiated.

To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock class for a 305-cubic-inch, 215 factory rated horsepower, fuel-injected Camaro during a review period:

Two K/SA Camaros running this combination ran 1.214- and 1.187- second under the index, triggering a review by the committee. As per the procedure outlined above, the overall engine average is analyzed first. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the 305/215/241 FI combination, 10 runs had been recorded (2 in K/SA and 8 in L/SA) with a total engine average of .945-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 1.00 under, the combination did not warrant a horsepower adjustment based on overall engine average.

The next step, per the procedure outlined above, is a class/engine review. The class of the car that actually triggered the review was K/SA. The class review revealed that K/SA had a class/engine average for the combination in question of 1.201-second under, therefore surpassing the 1.00-second-under requirement and signaling a horsepower adjustment for all 305/215/241 FI Camaros.

An important element to note and one most often misunderstood by racers is that although a K/SA Camaro affected the change, the L/SA 305/215/241 FI Camaros that run this combination also received a horsepower adjustment. The reason is that a specific combination can run in more than one class based on NHRA rules; therefore, all cars with the specific engine combination, transmission and body style will be affected.

Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower increase:

Under Index Horsepower Increase Index Change
1.150-1.299 1.25% -.05
1.300-1.399 2.25% -.10
1.400-or greater 3.25% -.15
(immediate change)


Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage.

Runs of 1.40 or more under the index will be reviewed and adjusted as soon as such runs were made. Runs at divisional events and National Opens are included in the 1.40-second-or-more-under analysis. This is done to better react to any out-of-line indexes or under-horsepowered combinations. Therefore, at all such events, a 3.25 percent horsepower adjustment or index reduction will be initiated immediately. The decision to adjust horsepower or to reduce the index will be at the discretion of the NHRA Tech Department.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Rich,

You're doing a good job. You are trying to add to the discussion and I appreciate that. Can you please cut'n paste the most recent version of the AHFS from the Lucas Site. That way we can make a comparsion of the different versions of the ahfs.

One other very important point - we have been unable to locate Wesley's grouping of combinations on any nhra site until he released the adjustments July 10, 2007. That is a huge problem for us because we never know what combinations he will add or delete from these groups between review periods.

We really have to sort this mess out and stop this got' ya rule making business. Whether it is intended or not that is the net affect.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Rich,

Man you are fast with these damn machines. You posted the most current version of the ahfs while I was plunking along on my last post. Thanks.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

The words "final qualification runs" and "final elimination runs" do not mean that actual final run in each case does it?

Pardon me for being a stickler for the wording.

It does not say all elimination runs or all qualification runs.