Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I explained it in this thread a long time ago. I also addressed the reason it is not going to change. The faster car has a substantial advantage not only at the starting line but all the way down the track.
That's not theory, that assessment comes from direct personal experience.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bill,
Without a doubt, you are absolutely correct on this assessment. That's exactly what I did. Twice. Once in SS and once in Comp.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Wow, thanks for your honest reply, Scott.
We need more of that here.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bill,
I did a quick survey of pairs of stockers at national events in competition. Out of 1730 pairs of stockers going down the track in competition, the faster car "advantage" (if you really want to call it that) only happened 24 times. That's less than 1.4%.
You asked why the NHRA hasn't addressed this issue, well, there's your answer. How excited can anyone get over something that happens less than 1.4% of the time?
To be honest, I'm a little disappointed. I just lost another justification for spending a stupid amount of money on always being the faster car every round.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You are talking about two entirely different things. As far as Bill's argument, the facts are very interesting in that the faster car pairings across the entire eliminator field don't support Bill's worse red light argument. However your reference to having the fastest or close to the fastest car in the field (A,B,C,D) is another issue altogether. A SS/A or B car has a much bigger advantage when paired against a SS/O car then a SS/K car would. The speed diffential of an oncoming SS/B car is much harder, and sometimes impossible to judge than someone you can see creeping up on you. The higher horsepower cars are also less susceptible to weather and altitude changes than the smaller engined cars. And the list goes on.

When I strongly believed that the faster classes had a big advantage, I pulled out 4 years of National Dragsters and noted how many times in Stock and Super Stock an A,B,C or D won the event or was in the final.
I bought my Corvette and started making my move from SS/K and L to SS/A and B the next week. I was runner up at my first National event with it in Memphis.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Xx

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

HALLAUJAH!!!

The King of the impertinent post is gone...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Chuck,
I DO appreciate the effort you put into researching this, and I am glad for your results... I have said all along, that the results you researched, the number of times the car with the worse offense was let off the hook, IS meaningful, but that is not the reason I wrote all this.

My contention is this: Until the (new) "worse red light" goes into effect (maybe never)
You will have inaccurate, skewed, results from a research effort like you just went to a lot of trouble to prosecute BECAUSE the second car to leave had NO reason to try to cut a light. He could leave ANYTIME... he ALREADY had won the race.

There are lots of instances wherein the two cars racing may be "close" Class racers, in that, one may be an L/SA and the other, an M/SA with dial-ins only hundredths apart, and the second-to-leave (quicker car) may not be able to tell before he launches the car, that the other car red lighted, but more often, there's enough time between the green lights that he can. In those instances, he may relax his launch and have a reaction time that is nowhere what it would have been, had he been pushing it, like it was still a race.

In that instance, his probability for a red light goes way up. That scenario doesn't happen with close dial-ins, utilizing the current rule.


When they withold the red light until both cars have left the line...

Only THEN, will we have true "EQUAL RED LIGHT JEOPARDY" and the playing field willl be truly level.

What we have now, skews the chances, overall, in favor of the quicker car.

I still believe that the "free ride (and commensurate advantages that go with a first red light system) should not be a part of starting line protocol for Handicapped racing, under any circumstances, (where the first to leave is not there by choice, but by necessity.)

And Jeff, in regards to the advantage" that the second-to-leave car enjoys with this system, I say shame on NHRA for allowing such a flawed system to persist for so many years.

Until "EQUAL RED LIGHT JEOPARDY" gives an advantage to NO ONE, there is still work to be done on these rules.

I built an H/SA '57 Chevy sedan delivery back in 1966. The 4-speed Hydro I put in it was not anything that ever came down a GM assembly line (in a Chevy automobile.) I knew that when I had to make my own rear motor mounts.

NHRA outlawed that combination, although I had built it to (hopefully) beat the 2-speed Powerglides.

I didn't figure I had anything to complain about when NHRA outlawed that combination, in about 1971. It was a never-never drivetrain out of pickup trucks that was never put (OEM) in a passenger car.

This, I feel, is the same deal. NHRA never intended the red light rule to be a permanent way of handicappping non-heads-up races, but they couldn't fix it at the time. (The breakout rules they fixed...)

Now, they can.... and they need to.

Just my 2-cents....

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Very well said Bill! Kudos! Jim:D

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

So Jim,you going to email or call Glendora and pitch old Bill's proposal?Mark declined,
he says he's not a currant NHRA member.I assume you are.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I don't know Ed. I might. Or I could let Bill write it up and I could submit it. Or I could work with him and several others and send in a proposal. Who knows. Jim

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

ED,

I thougtht you were outta here. No such luck, huh"

Did you READ THIS????

"More likely, it will put a fork in the whole idea,because, NHRA is now run by bean counters who only understand ONE THING: The bottom line."

Having to come up with a million dollars a year JUST to feed the two top druids (Uncle Tom and his accomplice) in the face of declining revenues that are the result of the general economy, declining car counts, poor attendance, LOTS of anti-NHRA sentiment, and gas and Diesel fuel prices, they (NHRA) are likely not in the mood to enact a rule that is NOT going to earn them a red cent, EVER, while costing them whatever it takes to get the proper software installed and working on all those NHRA computers. Add to all that, the likelihood that the poor bastard that would have to make a decision on this rule, would undoubtedly have the classic "deer in the headlights" eyes, after trying to figure it all out...

No, to hit NHRA with a petition on this idea at this time, would be suicidal.

Even if they supported the idea 100-percent, they're VERY UNLIKELY to make such a change, given fiscal conditions and their foreseeable financial future.

Petition???

Not a good idea. A good way to BURY it, probably.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about it.... LOL!"

How is YOUR "reading comprehension???????????"

I assume you read the foregoing, Mr. Fernandez....

The danger is, once a petition has failed, it would take an act of congress ever to reverse that....

Ed knows this.

NOT a good time for a petition. Read that again. I just want to make sure you understand so when you push harder for one, it will be obvious what your motives are.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Looks to me like he got stuck in neutral or jumped into reverse.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

OK Bill I've gotta ask. I understand your position on the starting line redlight inequity but do you advocate fixing a potential breakout correction at the finish line? Example: Car A fouls by .002 and car B fouls by .005. Under your revision is car A now the final and undisputed winner? (barring crossing the centerline) At the other end car A runs out by .005 (gets there first) and car B runs out by .001 Since the total combined infractions (.007 vs .006) would give the win back to car B... is that what you advocate? How would you treat a single breakout run that possibly was a result of chasing a worse redlight? (Car A runs out by .002 and Car B runs dead on (doesn't break out) but has a worse (.005 to .004) total infraction.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Why don't we just go back to the way it used to be in the '70's at US 30. Both cars redlight or break-out, they both lose. Double red in the final, both get 2nd place money. Saves money in the long run.

Oh yeah, we can also go back to paying only 4 places. Round money is for sissies.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bill's proposal has nothing to do with breakouts.
Both car leave the line...Worse red light comes . Win light comes on in other lane...Race over...Not that complicated.
Maybe it is?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You didn't get the intent of that post.That stone was meant to have Bill Dedman on it.
FYI.I still think you're a nosey body inflaming this issue where there's no implications for you,period.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Nope Wilcox, you obviously don't know me. I'm just idling through the pits on my way up to the staging lanes.Jim

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Wow....Still trying to give a guy that loses a way to win? He/she has the same opportunity. Cut the best light and run closest to the dial, wins 100% of the time.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

WOW! you still posting the same thing? Glad to have your input, again, and again, and again! Real informative! Thanks.Jim

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You're welcome.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Wow is right ...
Better keep this going, Bill .. There's still people here who don't understand it

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

No, I understand it perfectly. Please don't drag me through it again by reposting the "loser logic"... It's pretty simple.....I disagree. Maybe I'm too old or too stubborn. This would be like you trying to give me a hundred reasons why I should like Obama.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Oh and just to disprove your theory, what happens if you touch the center line? Just one example. Jim

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Obama? You certainly wouldn't have to worry about ME doing that!!!! (shudder)! Jim



.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You know, you're right, Jim... people who can't come up with a single reason why this first red light rule should NOT be changed, come on here and post anyway, with statements about politics, far-out possibilities, character assassinations, and ANYTHING to divert attention from the fact that they are unable to come up wih ONE legitimate reason, why this antiquated, unfair rule should be allowed to stand another day.

It gets downright comical... but, the truth is, it's not funny.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You know Bill, you and I haven't always agreed on everything on this board but I have to say I have your back on this one. This is a chance to correct a 48 year wrong and to make things more even, hurting no one! I have found that there are some people will oppose you just because they can. I don't understand why. Jim



.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Okay , now we're getting somewhere. Another honest post.
Thank you

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Here is what some bracket racers have to say about this subject.:eek:

http://drr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/t...2/m/1377086106

Jeff

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I don't understand it either Jim.

Thanks for the support. It's refreshing... :)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jim,beware.....................................

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Interesting reading, thanks for the link Jeff. Jim;)



.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ha ha ha! I get it. I have been warned! Jim:eek:


Oh and a great movie, even better book!

.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Been camping with BSA this weekend. I see that Bill just slid past my "this is who gets harmed scenario" and tried to spin it to "why not build an AA/S car"
Bill, when I ran D/S, my car was typically at the events I participated was fastest car in D/S, C/S and at least half of any B/S field. And that would usually cover the same classes with an auto trans in it. So I'm not sure what the math is but I would guestimate that my car was in the top 10-15% of the event. And I built an AMX because I liked the specs and that would include the 97" wheelbase. I studied the NHRA Stock classification guide and engine blueprint guide (which I spent $400 on from NHRA as this was not web based at the time I bought the car). And I'd bet I had more research into what to build than a great majority who "just happen" on a race car for class racing.
So in this example (and I KNOW I'm not the only one with these smarts in NHRA racing), I built what I thought would be very competitive with the idea that I would leave second a part of that scenario. And the same logic is following me as I transform the car to SS/H status. Trust me, I don't expect to be leaving first on too many cars.
So you asked for an example of who would get hurt. I gave one. Then you resorted to the fairness doctrine. That tells me no amount of logic on the other side of the fence will be considered.
And I liked the response (who?) which asked about a double red-light / breakout situation. Mark Yacavone said the race was over once there was a red light winner declared (first or worst). Then that surely doesn't sound fair because if we have to play fair, it should be all the way down to the finish line! Make it so both racers AT LEAST GET A CHANCE TO PROVE THEIR PROWESS AT ET PREDICTION!
That's it, I'm done. It was nice not having internet access while in the forest this weekend!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff, You can get all the dial in practice you want now, even if you red light..Run it right out the back door. That is ,if you want to put a hit on your combo LOL
Just think about all the extra practice you'll get when Bill gets this changed.
You'll have to hit the tree every single time, even if you think that SS/PA left a tad early .
Don K will get so much practice, he might become a Touring Pro one day, Right, Don ?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Lets just go back to the Flagman and this will all go away...........

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff,

I run SS/HA and I rarely get to leave 2nd. Most of the cars in super stock and modified run faster than mine.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

And almost as up-to-date as the rule we're trying to get changed to something more current.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If you don't go to the HRAs, how are you going to get it changed?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Think I'll wait until they send a letter (if they ever do !!!) to NHRA, then I'll use my advisory board to let them know that I don't want the change.