Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bobby, how about it ain't gonna happen? I most always leave first, and don't see a problem like it is. Why would anybody think they are going to change it?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I raced my 55 Chev SS/PA for 20 years leaving and red lighting first on a clean tree. Learned to usually cut a decent light...usually green.
The "First" rule seemed unfair. "Worst" made sense. Last couple of years
I have been fortunate enough to race my 2012 SS/AAA Super Cobra Jet usually leaving last. The first red light rule benefit has been completely balanced by the learning curve of leaving last on an unclean tree. Timing/delay of tree/ visual distractions are new challenges I am learning to overcome. The rules as they currently stand seem to be reasonably fair from my new perspective.This will not change when I race the 55 Chev.
Other differences between the two cars are for a different topic...both are totally fun!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

This is just a hypothetical so no one said it is getting changed but in the interest of fairness it should technically be changed because from what I read, they originally wanted it to be worse red light loses and the only reason it is the way it is now is apparently because they did not know how to write a program for it back then. I promise I will stop when a valid reason pops up!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Dial heads up, that way the worst red light looses, Problem solved.
Chuck

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If we are going to change long standing rules accepted by the vast majority, how about this one? Allow drivers on Social Security and Medicare to run a tenth under their dials? Only fair. At this age it's harder to turn your neck around at the stripe to find the other car. At least as many would go for this as the red light rule change. :-)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I'm on the same thinking as you are, the rule was set that way back in the day when they could have only one lane spot the other, it was one lane was the spotter lane (which was the faster car) and the other was the spotted lane.(slower car) Now that there are computers that can do almost any programming you want, there is no excuse not to have worse red light rule changed. Not everyone can afford a $100K vehicle so that they don't have to get a spot. Here's another reason for the rule change, why is the tree blocked from the other driver? Unblock the tree so that there is a distraction for the faster driver, there were no blocked tree's when there was a 5 bulb tree. There was all sort of distractions for the faster car back then. They faster cars shouldn't have both ways.

Casey Miles
248H "F" NHRA Stock

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Do you guys not think the slower car leaving first is a distraction in itself? Do you guys not think that in the case of a large handicap, seeing the other car leave and your side hasnt even started yet not make a driver anxious and cause red lights? Do you not think, like someone else pointed out, that if the slower car red lights the faster car may go ahead and leave as well since the race is won and he or she has no reason to sit there on the two step? Everyone knows the rules when they decide what class or car they decide to build, its not like you built a car and then found out the rule after the fact.
Chuck

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Well said!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Chuck, You are right. Claude Ruel

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Here's a crazy idea.

Everybody leaves heads up. Let the timing computer figure out who wins.

First/worst red light issue goes away.

Sure, finish will be staggered. No fans watch at the finish anyway.

The finish line "game" goes away since you can't tell who's taking the stripe early.

This means, no reason to be sideways on the brakes going through the lights. Dial tight and run it out. It's racing again, not a game.

Who would like this?

-Insurance companies. Less risk of a fast car breaking and hitting the slow car ahead. Maybe we could cut some cost for the tracks. Maybe they could pass that on to the racers.
-Slow cars. Red light debate goes away.
-Some fast cars because they don't have to worry about 80 mph of closure going through the lights. The slow car is way behind.


Who would not like this?
-People that can't dial their car or the car is inconsistent.
-Fast cars that like the first red light advantage.
-People that are skilled at driving the stripe, "holding 2" or whatever.
-People that like the "financial commitment" (read keep it expensive so I can buy my win) will not like it because there will be more slower cars starting class racing.
-People that just can't handle change. That isn't something to just dismiss, we are all against change to some extent.
-People that are really successful with the current system. (hmm. 1 winner, 59 losers.....)

I'm not talking a rule change here. I'm talking run this around, get some input, maybe try it at some local brackets for Top/Mod/Street eliminations for a night winner.

Maybe Mike Beard could put it in one of his big bracket races on a Thursday before the big event or whatever. Maybe make it a side event as part of next year's NCN. Could be a good promoting gimmick. Of course, Mike is good at driving the stripe so he probably won't like it...

To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
Winston Churchill

Let the flames begin....yeah, I know it's crazy...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

:-)........he must be sound asleep !!!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

It would look like time trials over and over....and some think explaining bracket racing to fans is hard, imagine trying to explain two random cars going down the track and the one arriving 4 seconds later being deemed the winner. "he was closer to his dial in"....ummm, yeah that would pretty much kill dragracing as we know it.

Just for the record, I too think it should be worst break out, worst red light. How about worst across the line? LOL! I barely touched the centre line but you came into my lane so you lose?
I'm not gonna lose sleep over the way it is, but technically, yeah it should be worst light too.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You make good points. I thought about the time trial aspect as I was writing it, but thought, well, maybe somebody else will come up with an idea.

I figure the spectator part of drag racing is dead anyway. I know, we all want people to fill the stands so we can win money to pay for our hobby, but I think that is just wishful thinking. Maybe I'm wrong, I would really like to think so.

Racing just isn't a business. If you have sponsors, that is an advertising/marketing business that uses racing as a venue/medium, no different than marketing companies that put their message into papers, magazines, TV, radio or whatever.

I was not trying to get people all worked up, but maybe just stir some thinking. Racers are the cheatingest, conivingest, clever take-advantage-of-the-rules, people on earth. They are the most innovative and creative.

That is one of the things that makes America great.

Consider this. IF we spent as much time trying to figure out a way to improve the sport as we do trying to get an advantage with our race cars, there is no limit.

Have some fun with it. Craziest idea wins!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

My opinion: both drivers should get an equal shot at the tree, the win light should not go on until both cars have left the starting line and would basically simulate a heads up start with no handicap.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Great idea!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Sorry Jeff but the top end Is the most fun part of racing, most class racer already hate Nintendo racing, this will open it up for some boring racing. since I started this crazy post, I've come to realize that all being equal the system works. The guy who leaves first gets a clean tree, the second racer has to wait with the anxiety of a squirrel crossing the street in rush hour traffic. I like leaving first. my opinion after a long soul searching,leave it alone. Claude Ruel

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Claude...your giving up after only 74 pages???



Quiter!..... LOL!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Not really, given the fact that most everyone is using blockers nowadays on their helmets and/or sun visors. That distraction is easily eliminated. But that's subjective so worst case scenario, the fast car finally has one "con" to deal with, big deal.

I don't go on my two step until my top yellow comes on and I suggest you and every other racer do the same. However, I can't tell people how to drive.

What's the point of this sentence? Everyone builds a fast car to take advantage of a lopsided starting line rule? Or you built a slow car knowing you were being shafted by a lopsided starting line rule? Please specify.

Regardless, if the rule changes how many people are going to trade in their fast car for a slow car to take advantage of this new rule that makes a drag race a tad more fair for both competitors? None. Everyone loves to chase and anyone who says otherwise is yanking your crankshaft.

Starting line rules that benefit faster cars: No deep staging, first red light loses, and crosstalk in the bracket super classes (what a joke).

Starting line rules that benefit slower cars:

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bobby, That's all because the fast cars have the numbers now...even before all the A/FX cars came in.
Every poll (whether formal or informal) always comes up in their favor, as one would expect.
I'm still waiting to hear why a slower moving cars shouldn't be allowed to deep stage,..working inside the narrow parameters of the current setup.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I don't understand the need for deep staging? I know the advantage regarding slower than actual et. What in the world moves too slow to cut a decent light? My 3/4 ton '99 Suburban can do that.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ed,my friend....Maybe this will explain .
Take your Suburban to a test and tune night and ask for a 5 tenths pro tree. Or better yet ,get a track person to unscrew the first two ambers.
This is what the fast cars see..blocker or not.

Go in shallow , stand on the converter and let us know what your reaction times are.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Mark, we don't race off a pro tree. What does that have to do with anything? You can bump in deeper without the pre stage going off.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You do if you use blinders...like several of the consistent winners do.

Bumping in is somewhat inaccurate...Turning off the top light? Not so much .

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

X1000 Mark!
Adjust the car to change the reaction time, not yourself. If your consistant with a .600 light, then change air pressure, go deep, etc are all things to bring it down towards .500. If you want to try leaving at the end of this bulb this week and bottom of that bulb next week...uh, yeah, you won't get far. Some vehicles can be changed enough with stage rpm etc to make the difference, most slower cars can't.

As far as things that benefit fast cars, what about the auto timer? Low power U car can sit on the converter a lot longer than a screaming A car, so now you have to get in quick so the fast cars don't cook waiting for a slow car to stage? Another "subtle" advantage given to the "$$", oops, I mean, "fast" cars.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Mark, if red lights aren't a problem, why In the world would anyone want to use a blinder? That's the whole point, right? I certainly would not use one if I didn't have problems going red.
I still do if I don't keep my launch RPM turned down to 3000, (my car runs quicker leaving over 4000, but I can't get a green light), low air pressure in the rear tires, and my Trans brake button spring stretched to slow it down. Night racing would sure be better with no blinder.
If you think all the race winners use blinders, ask Scotty Richardson to see his.
Many guys that win races adjust their lights by how many "bumps" going in.
And, if leaving EARLY enough is the problem, how can you be the first red? :-)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Blinders are more for consistency than just because of red lights.

You can buy valve bodies that will slow down car reaction so you can leave higher.

Night racing? Different story

I did say several racers for a reason (not "many" or "all" ).

Take a look at the top of the SS points


I don't understand this

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If you can't make it leave early enough without deep staging that kinda makes going red moot, right? I would not expect a rule change.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

On the contrary..It's easy to go red, often, if you have to move up in between bulbs.

I don't expect a rule change either..
As I said earlier..It's the numbers.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Mark is making great points and I know I agree with him. However, driving style can be debated til the second coming. This thread is not about where you should stage your race car or what launch rpm you should leave at, it is about a lopsided starting line rule that benefits the quicker car in a drag race, plain and simple. Let's not get off course.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

"...it is about a lopsided starting line rule that benefits the quicker car in all handicapped drag races."

In all other races, (which would mean heads-up) nothing is lopsided. Both drivers face an absolutely equal opportunity at leaving the starting line too soon.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I have done this since 1960, and the lower class guys have complained about getting the short end of the stick for something or other as long as I have raced. When we had flagmen, it was 25' per class spot was not enough for the lower class cars, there has always been something.

I'm a slow car here in Div 4 SS, I always leave first. We are running over with 8 second hood scoop cars around here.

If I go red, I know screwed up. I don't care what the other guy does. As I have said before, many guys don't just sit there on the 2 step after the slower car goes red. Why would they? If I'm spotting a slower car, I'm not going to wait to leave if he goes red. Those guys going red when you do does not mean they would have gone red if you had not.

They aren't going to write new software to change a rule for a few unhappy guys. Most of us live with the rules we have. Knew what they were before we started.

Have you lost a lot of races that way? Were they long or short spots?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ed, I'm not an unhappy person about the 1st red light, I just look at it that programming can be changed since it couldn't be when they first came up with the xmas tree as a starting device. It's progress, same as the new factory cars in Stock Eliminator.

Casey Miles
248H "F" NHRA Stock

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Good point Casey lol. Ed, actually my friend/teammate Jamie Schoenly GT/KA was -.012 to his opponent's SS/GA -.040 red this weekend at the D1 LODRS so Jamie got the loss. However, I can still accept the fact that his red could have potentially distracted the faster car and caused him to go red also. If the rule was changed the other driver would not have seen the red because the tree divider would extend all the way down. This also gets rid of the whole "why should I stay on my two-step.." because you would never know the other guy red lit until you left the line.

I know this scenario does not affect us but think about a crosstalk race where both drivers leave off the same bulb, why on earth would this not be worst red light? Did the slow car's red distract the fast car's delay box? Faster drivers actually set up a little more conservative on the delay box to take advantage of this.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bobby, I don't watch that bracket crap using cross talk. I had no idea how that worked.
Extending the divider couldn't cost that much. Be an easy cure. I always leave first, but never worried about it. Don't remember ever having a double red light round.