Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

For the hell of it, I went and looked up the Indexes as of May 7, 1990. I think this shows the current 2008 Indexes are, indeed, soft.

SS/A 9.80
SS/B 10.00
SS/C 10.25
SS/D 10.35
SS/E 10.45
SS/F 10.55
SS/G 10.65
SS/H 10.70
SS/I 10.75
SS/J 11.00
SS/K 11.20
SS/L 11.40
SS/M 11.70
SS/N 12.05
SS/O 12.30
SS/P 12.60

SS/AA 9.85
SS/BA 9.95
SS/CA 10.15
SS/DA 10.30
SS/EA 10.45
SS/FA 10.55
SS/GA 10.65
SS/HA 10.75
SS/IA 10.85
SS/JA 11.10
SS/KA 11.35
SS/LA 11.65
SS/MA 11.95
SS/NA 12.25
SS/OA 12.50
SS/PA 12.75

GT/A 10.10
GT/B 10.20
GT/C 10.30
GT/D 10.45
GT/E 10.60
GT/F 10.70
GT/G 10.85
GT/H 10.95
GT/I 11.05
GT/J 11.15
GT/K 11.25
GT/L 11.40
GT/M 11.50

GT/AA 10.25
GT/BA 10.35
GT/CA 10.50
GT/DA 10.60
GT/EA 10.75
GT/FA 10.90
GT/GA 11.10
GT/HA 11.15
GT/IA 11.30
GT/JA 11.45
GT/KA 11.55
GT/LA 11.65
GT/MA 11.75

SS/AS 9.75
SS/BS 9.85
SS/CS 10.30
SS/AM 9.40
SS/BM 9.60
SS/CM 9.80
SS/DM 10.00
SS/EM 10.20
SS/FM 10.60
SS/GM 10.60

A/S 11.09
B/S 11.29
C/S 11.47
D/S 11.62
E/S 11.76
F/S 11.90
G/S 12.00
H/S 12.09
I/S 12.28
J/S 12.43
K/S 12.67
L/S 12.81
M/S 12.95
N/S 13.05
O/S 13.19
P/S 13.47
Q/S 13.76
R/S 14.05
T/S 14.48
U/S 14.77
V/S 15.39
W/S 15.96

A/SA 11.17
B/SA 11.37
C/SA 11.51
D/SA 11.66
E/SA 11.80
F/SA 11.95
G/SA 12.10
H/SA 12.24
I/SA 12.38
J/SA 12.53
K/SA 12.73
L/SA 12.82
M/SA 12.96
N/SA 13.11
O/SA 13.26
P/SA 13.54
Q/SA 13.89
R/SA 14.13
T/SA 14.67
U/SA 14.96
V/SA 15.71
W/SA 16.80

These were the Class Indexes from eighteen years ago. Since then, with all the aftermarket this, replacement that, and other rule changes allowing the cars to be much quicker than they were back then, most of the Indexes are at least a tenth (or more) SLOWER with all the new rules. And you still think the Indexes are not soft in 2008?

BTW, here are the current-day Indexes, for comparison.
http://www.nhra.com/stats/indexes_ss.html
http://www.nhra.com/stats/indexes_stk.html

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Mark , Of course, not with all combinations. I'm talking about cars that are underfactored to begin with.

Example 1, 78 400 Firebird. We ran 11.80's on a 13 flat index , 10 years ago @ 260 hp . Those cars have been hit several times ,but now run in the low elevens @ 280 plus hp .Without the AHFS, they'd still be in L/SA.

Example 2, There was a V/Stock car in an IHRA final recently, right around the index.
I know of atleast one turbo combo that has already been 1.80 under ( of course, not at an NHRA event)

Some of you guys are missing the point. I don't care if it's 1.80 under or 2.20 under. it's still ridiculous

No index reductions and no HP hits? How long before you just call this Bracket Two or maybe Affirmative Action Eliminator ?

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

The current racing system in Stock and Super Stock, as it stands, does not require or encourage you to run wide open 100% of the time. There's NOTHING about a low qualifying position that pays, except the possibility of #1 getting a bye. Only class eliminations and the occasional heads up run require you to run wide open, and even then you might not have to, depending on your competition. So, no, not running wide open is not even manipulating the system. Neither is moving to the most advantageous class.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

I agree, there isn't an easy answer to what many perceive to be a problem. If you lower the Indexes, say, two tenths across the board (five tenths is to much, IMO) and leave the triggers (-1.15 twice for a look and -1.40 for automatic), then that plays into the fast guys/girls hands...allowing them to run flat out with no, or reduced, penalties. If you lower the Indexes two tenths, and reduce the triggers to -.95 and -1.20, then you still have the same problem that some currently do not like, which is being unable to run flat out in Class Eliminations, or heads-up runs, without a potential penalty of HP adjustments. I don't think it is the intention of some (at least not me) to chase the little guys/girls out. I'm just pointing out the fact that in the past two decades, we have received a multitude of rule changes to allow us to go faster, and yet the Indexes are Slower than before the new rules (and not all rules have been for the better...the -.50 rule for bye runs to win class, Class Winners not automatically placed in the field, but that is another story in itself). Even if the indexes were reduced two tenths, it would only affect a small, minority population of Stock and Super Stock cars.

(I'm not professing to have the answer to the problem...just tossing some opinions out there.)

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Just because you can BUY HP doesn't mean you automatically go fast. I know some smart people who've run fast in the past who were NOT real fast in a new (to them) combination despite having a high HP big $$$ engine.

I'm not saying money isn't a factor. I'm not even saying big money store bought engines aren't a factor. I'm saying they're not the all conquering factor people are making them out to be.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

That's all fine and well.

The problem here is Stock and Super Stock are not intended to be entry level classes. What is required even to run .6 under with a decent combination is beyond what the average entry level racer is capable of. ESPECIALLY if want to promote "do it yourself" as opposed to "go buy it" race cars.

Stock MAY have been intended to be entry level a couple of decades or so ago, but those days are GONE and they aren't coming back, either.

Now, Super Street might be entry level. I say might because of all the throttle stops and delay boxes, among other things.

But Stock is just too technical an exercise for the average entry level racer, and it ain't JUST the index that does it. Further, LOWERING the indexes 2 to 5 tenths won't make that worse, and RAISING the indexes won't make it better, either.

The plain truth is that Stock is enough of a technical exercise that you need to have already been running a FAST bracket car SUCCESSFULLY pretty much on your own, both in terms of knowledge and money, before you are close to ready to go Stock racing. And even then you have a steep learning curve to negotiate. At least if you want to be fast and capable of winning. Stock and Super Stock are a couple of steps UP from bracket racing. It all goes back to the phrase "if it was easy, everybody could do it".

You will NEVER keep big money out of racing, it just isn't going to happen. It always finds its way in if someone that has big money wants it to, and someone with big money always wants it to. It doesn't matter what form of racing it is. I've been SCCA racing, truck pulling, tractor pulling, dirt and asphalt circle track racing, mud bogging, mud dragging, and even a little boat racing. When money wants in, the door will ALWAYS open one way or another.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

The bad part of SS, the way it is now, is you can work your butt off to try and go fast just to give it away with the shoepolish to someone who could care less about going fast and are just in it for the bracket race.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Why would it be bad to have to work a little harder to run the index(or under)than it is now? nothing is keeping them from coming to a race and learn if they have trouble run the indexes...most of us has come from not running the index and worked our way up...kinda what makes it fun...to easy to be in the "bracket race" on sunday and have a chance....I just think it looks stupid to run 1.3 sec or more under the index..but thats just me.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

it looks stupid to try and go as fast as you can??? Wow. What a concept. Also insulting to those who work hard.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Read it right...i mean you should lower the indexes so that maybe running -1.00 means something again..when those indexes that mike put up was used in the early 90's it was very few that made -.500.. thats was the norm then..we are probably .6-.7 faster as an average now...I just think like Mark Y were is it ending?..right now the cars are holding back some...how will it be in a couple of years?

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Reading all of this is interesting. To me Stock is a mix of running Brackets and Performance racing. My car runs G/SA and that is a class with a lot of race cars. I did not pick my car a 1968 GTO because it would have a advantage in G/SA. I picked it because I like Pontiacs and GTOs. We all have our handicaps Because of funding, time, and focus my old goat is slow on a good day its been 3 tenths under. I build my own engines and work in the budget I am given to work with. I am also stubborn but enjoy the science of building a car .
I love racing class cars and enjoy brackets. Class racing is more challenging due to rules and frankly the level of competition even with shoe polish on the window. I looked at investing more to run faster but realized at 3 under or 7 under there is a faster car out there and in the end short of making a limited field could not see the sense in it for that reason which is just a personal choice. If I pursue more performance it will be cause my ego says it is time not sure if my brain can keep up but hey it is all about the journey right.

Pure heads up racing is great. My experience is that is it always pre ordained to fail at the grass roots level. Because some one will always be faster and have more money more time or more brains. I always wondered what would happen if we changed the landscape in sportsman racing. Much like bracket racing did years back.
Imagine a Stock or Super Stock rules as they are today...

Qualifying off the indexes as we do today with one change and that would be handicapping the tree using our indexes.

Next take all the contigency money and apply it to the top 10 qualifiers. Number one qualifier recieves a Trophy or wally as well.

Then take 50% or better of the purse and spread this across the top 32 qualifiers in a stepped fashion.
In essence put the big bucks and reconigtion into making the the top 32 in the field.

ELIMINATIONS
#128 runs #127
126 runs 125
124 runs 123 and so on
Heads up off the index with no breakout

Pay Round Money in a stair stepped fashion Rd1 Winners 20 bucks 40 60 etc....

The winner gets a wally and obviously the most round money.

Any one in the Top 32 left with the biggest money of the weekend.
How does it effect the fans.......Head Starts but the car that gets there first wins Period..Most understand why the 4 cylinder Pinto gets a head start over the Big Block camaro the disconnect comes from the breakouts.

For the racer and myself all of the sudden there is a new found motivation to get the tools out because maybe if I am 128 and 127 is .05 faster I can out drive him but what about second round when my opponent is .15 faster on their index.

Hey I went home with 20 bucks and because I gunned the guy or gal down at the tree I got by round one but man a .000 rt would not have won me round two. I have got to get faster to go another round. I am engaged because 20 bucks is better than nothing and early rounds very well may be a drivers game

Close racing, no breakouts, still better be able to drive, and short of round one losers some reward for a minor accomplishment. In the end you have to be able to build a fast car to get to the gold ring. Hell some of ya all would probably win two Wallys LOL
Keep talking because change is critical to the future of our sport we all love so much.
Besides everyone outside of Drag Racing thinks were all nuts anyway
Thanks
Don

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

I agree, factor the motors somewhere close to correct and that will take care of the "enhancements" of recent years. It dosen't really matter where the index is. If the baddest hotrod there goes 6 under then it is in the #1 spot. Same difference. You aren't curing any problem, you are just shuffling numbers around.

NEVER take hard work and testing out of the game. That is what makes this fun. But don't screw with the #1 spot on the sheet when you are 30-50 hp soft based on previous performance and think that is an indicator of what an index should be. Its not hard to see what is wrong when the et vs. mph dosen't add up.

Indexes are definitely softer but in my case the same combo I was running then has been factored until it is running 3 classes faster (lower) by todays index numbers.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Eliminating the trigger is a solution to alot of problems facing the racers and would be an encouragment to a performance based category.

There are many cars out there capable of running more than a second under. Every one of them fear of going 1.4 under by accident or not, because of the penalties that will follow. In all honesty, if the car is legal and capable of going that far under, it is probably factored incorrectly according to NHRA's standards. So, whether the car is legal or not, to maintain this advantage one must "protect" their combo by sand bagging or nose dipping at a 1,000. I'm sorry, but thats not entertainment to anyone, spectators, racers, pets, you name it, it does not represent drag racing or a performance based category. I understand about holding back a little (wise strategy) to set up an opponent for an upcoming race, but not doing it an entire season.

I hear all the time about racers wanting to run their car all the way out, but can't due to the trigger. If everyone was allowed to run fast as they wnat, it would be so much fun. Bragging rights would be more credible, competition would be more finely tuned, and drag racing would be like it is stated, drag racing.

As someone said on here, lowering the index or changing the trigger level, is only shuffling numbers. And as I stated before, lowering the indexes is is only beneficial to those who are within range of the horsepower fairy.

Most racers started out above the index and worked their way to where they are now. Leaving the indexes alone would still serve the same purpose. The problem now exists when you start going too far under the index. Don't lower the index to prevent from going under too far, raise the other end of the equation. Raising the trigger is a temporary band aid. Eliminating the trigger allows for all out performance.

It will benefit the evaluation process in the long run. After about a year or so, it will be evident who needs HP and who does not. There are too many people pointing fingers at who should be getting a HP hit. Well, with all the sand bagging currently going on, what does it matter. If they are legal, it is going to be the same story without a trigger

This trigger elimination is just my opinion to benefit Stock, for the racers, the spectators, the sport, and yes, even the pets. They do not it like when their owners come back from a run that went too far under.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA Did I mention T/S & T/D

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Why don't we see any a through e stock guys complaining? This looks like to me that the only people complaining are the ones that bought there car off joe's used car lot for $1,500.00 and put a (header) and slicks on it and went racing. N.h.r.a. Should just start factoring the sh_ _ out of every car till they all run the same flat out like pro stock. Then you would have some good racing !

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Good post...Ron hits a lot of good points such as the trigger. I agree with Ron that the trigger holds back many combinations of showing how fast they can go. If the trigger was lifted, then the combinations could be factored better.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Once again, for those who propose eliminating the "trigger", I ask this:

If there is no "trigger", when, and by what means, will HP be adjusted?

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Trigger should be close enough to DO something for HP system. If it is true the Index drops .2 next year the index should move MORE so it would be more sensitive and not less. Without this there is NO correction.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Alan, Dick, the correction will be the same as it is now. Only instead of getting immediate HP adjustments, it will be done at a later point in time, maybe a year from now. By that time it should be obvious what combos need an adjustment. Eliminating the trigger allows for people to run it out now and quit playing this stupid sand bagging, nose dipping actions. Adjustments will come later so now you have the opportunity to flex your muscle.

Lowering the indexes is just moving numbers around to satisfy the ones who are close to the majic 1.4 under rule.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

With no trigger. They could go back to the old methods.
Ouija boards, dart boards, personal vendetas, and last but far from least WHINERS, CRYBABIES and the like.
For me I'll take my chances with a number.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Ron,
I have to say that makes no sense at all. It isn't the "trigger" they're afraid of, it's the HP adjustment. So it does not matter that there is no "trigger", you still get HP. What you propose is removal of the 1.4 under instant HP Monday morning, correct? And the 1.14 under trigger for "evaluation" remains in effect? Hell, people work just as hard now not to hit 1.14 under as they do 1.4 under. HP is HP, it does not matter if you get it tomorrow, or 6 months later, it's still HP. And you'll still get as much, too. Hell, just for fun look into it and find out if, over all, more HP isn't given by evaluation than by the instant Monday HP after a 1.4 under shot. A smart guy with a fast car will work to avoid a 1.14 under pass if at all possible, and by doing so will also avoid a 1.4 under pass. Taking away the 1.4 under instant HP won't change that for damned sure. And there's a LOT more "bracket mode", "sandbagging", and "dumping" to avoid 1.14 under than there is to avoid 1.4 under. I just don't see what your suggestion will accomplish at all, at least with regards to your stated goal.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

I absolutely agree! Stock? I don't don't have one, so don't care. Super Stock indexes are way too soft. Who can't run over 1/2 under in Super Stock? If an average Stocker can come over and run under, the indexes are way too soft. Guess it's nice for them to be able to still race national events where SS runs instead of Stock. Some of them are fast enough to run under the SS indexes if lowered 1/2 sec.

There is a place for guys that can't make one run, or don't want to bother testing between races to get faster (Not all gains costs money.), but just want to charge the battery and go race where you don't have to be fast. It is called bracket racing.

I still think the higher qualified SUPER STOCKER should get lane choice instead of a coin toss.
Stock? I don't have one, so don't care how they do it.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Alan, let me correct my trigger theory. What I meant was that they should eliminate the trigger and the evaluation number. The people that are trying to avoid the 1.14 thing should be allowed to run it out. Get rid of this "number" that is holding back racers from doing what they really want to, that is to go fast. The system that is in place now could work if applied correctly. But, there are too many that are holding back because of a HP hit that are messing the system up. So, if you eliminate the "triggers", cars can go fast, competition will get better, and there will be a better view of the combos that might need an adjustment. During this free for all period NHRA should be accumulating data such as incrimental times to do a fair evaluation of adjustments in the future. But with people holding back NHRA cannot judge fairly due to tarnished data. After about a year of this NHRA can then come up with a master realignment of HP factors, and then go back to the system that is in place now due to accurate data. As long as there is a number to avoid there will be inaccurate data.

Art, Ouija boards, dart boards, personal vendetas, and last but far from least WHINERS, CRYBABIES and the like. Aren't they doing that now?

Ron Ortiz
U/SA dart boards, I like that

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

The system now is supposed to have triggers. And from what I've seen it seems to be fair. There are instances that the old personal vendetta still is used. My old car comes to mind 152 hp one day 165 the next. A math wizard I'm not, But 152 times 3.25% doesn't equal 13. Thats voodoo math at its finest.
Most of the guys on here commented "well did it really hurt you"
My statement is now if you go 1.40 under and get factored "does it really hurt you".
At least you control your own fate..

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

[QUOTE=OLD INJUN;82482]Why don't we see any a through e stock guys complaining? QUOTE]


Seems like the lower class Stock guys are the ones that start whining, crying, and making derogatory coments about other's intelect, when guys talk about going more performance based. I was suprised to see my index was 2/10th higher in 1998. Why in the world did they raise them? Already soft. When I quit first time in 1979 they weren't that soft. It's getting more like the old AHRA, used to be: too many classes (many guys would run classes with few-to-no other entrys) and too-soft standards. Lots of tire smoke at the finish line.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

(Raises hand) A business partner of mine and I built an S-10 a few years back, and despite continued work, many combinations of components, and a lot of money, it's still an index runner.

An Stocker running -.50 under the Super Stock index is an AVERAGE Stocker? :eek:

I wouldn't have a problem with that.


Here's a simple idea that would help out the AHFS a little bit. Why not denote both a minimum AND a maximum on the weight sticker? In my opinion, if a car weighs enough to run the next lower class, is should have to run that class. People could still run heavy, just not ridiculously heavy.

$.02,

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

I fully agree with that. Seems like a silly way to slow one down anyway. Added weight is just harder on the drivetrain. Taking out ten or fifteen degrees of spark does wonders for slowing one down. They could keep track of everybody's actual weight. Chuck and Wesley need something else to do anyway. <G>

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Ron,
All you have said is "eliminate the trigger". But yet you say after a while, HP will be adjusted anyway. It STILL doesn't make any sense. It isn't the triggers, it's the HP. You're STILL saying people will get HP for going fast, just not immediately. Anyone who is racing a combination they plan to KEEP racing is going to protect it, whether you "eliminate the trigger" for some vague undetermined period of time. The only thing that MIGHT happen is guys could go out and kill some combinations, sell them before the HP adjustments, and move on.

We run two different 427 engines, and a 350. We definitely plan to continue to run the 427 engines. We may or may not keep the 350, if we keep that car. I can tell you right now that if NHRA were to follow your plan, I sure as Hell would not go run any of those engines far enough under to get HP (yeah, I know the 350 is slow right now). It would be stupid. All your plan does is prolong and postpone, it does not solve anything. In fact, it makes the whole system less open and transparent than it is now.

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Alan, you're kind of on the right track. The HP adjustments will be based on more accurate information. Eliminating the triggers allows for everyone to run hard and increase competition. Yes, you are right there will be HP adjustments down the road, but the data accumulated will be across the board. As it stands now people are holding back so much that it isn't allowing the current system to function correctly. In addition it is such a deterrent to a racer who has alot of potential but is afraid of using it. What I am proposing is simple. It is not of any good to lower indexes, whether you think they are soft or not. Indexes are set to attract new competitors, they still have to work hard to reach it and continue to do so to run way under. But then you hit a brick wall where your afraid to go any faster. That is not the true meaning of the sport. NHRA kind of opened the door by only allowing the fastest 128 at Indy. Now if you eliminate the triggers we can really see the fastest 128. It is not going to hurt anybody, it will only benefit everybody. If somebody wants to hold back all year to protect their combo down the road thats fine, but in the meantime everybody else will be having fun. In the end the protectors will still get refactored due to the more accurate data that NHRA will have acquired. It basically is a proposition to let everyone cut it loose and then later we will adjust with viable data to support such adjustments. You'll be surprised at all the holding back that will be set free.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA

Re: S/SS - Lower the index -0.50 & run Pro ladder
 

Good post Ron.

Let's take for example two same combination U/SA cars,one consistently going 1.39 under,the other freshman right on the index. We lower the indexes 3/10's across the board and leave the trigger where it was. Now the slow guy is immediately 3/10's off with the new drop in the number & lets just say the fast guy opens his up & is 2/10's quicker than he ever was. N.H.R.A. sees this & soon adds say ten horsepower to that combination. The fast guy is still very fast & near the top of the ladder (& got horsepower as he should) but the slow guy is even farther off since his car also gets the added weight. He will have to "work harder" to get back where he was but 4/10's is a lot to get back just to be competitive again. Chances are the slow guy will get hit repeatedly by the faster car & will find himself always chasing the index.
As a result the fast U/SA car will now qualify a bit lower and the slow guy will not be able to compete.