Re: New HP
 

Alan and Dick, I never said it couldn't be improved. I said it will never be perfect. The reason I'm on the SRAC is to try and continue to improve the system and to rectify other issues. I just tire of people who bash without facts (not saying that either of you did that).

It just amazes me to see some of the stuff on here. There was something about no Mustangs getting hp, when with a little research, anyone can see that the '67 428 did get hp. Yes, NHRA loves Mustang drivers in Stock so much that they will never get hp again and can run flat out at will. People actually believe crap like this.

Evan

Re: New HP
 

Have you seen alot of Hemi-Cuda's or Challengers latley??those were the cars i was talking about if you read my post.. I doubt anyone seriously will try to "get in the match" as long they have a 457 hp factor..looks dead to me!!

Re: New HP
 

I know this is "BEATING A DEAD HORSE" but dont forget all of the bogus cars and parts (some of the very ones you are talking about) that NEVER get DQ'ed because the NHRA tech dept. will not grow the balls or gain the knowledge.....no, let me refrase that....the tech dept. knows whats going on and most are good ....its because management is afraid of law suites and the same crap just keeps going on year after year because every time the tech dept throws someone out the "big guy" in Calif. over rides the decision....the guys who believe in the "tooth fairy" will always be 2 to 3 tenths behind. The ones who can keep up are using soft combinations and never seem to get HP. Things will never change until management changes. What happened to the process of weighing pistons and rods in tear down????? I know you guys get tired of me saying this but wake up and take a look around. I could name a few names and exactly what they are doing but its of no use and not on this forum.

Re: New HP
 

Evan,
The problem is that the AHFS is so flawed in its present state that people get pretty damned aggravated with it. And then NHRA flat out refuses to fix it. At all. That is why people rail against it so much. Take a look at your example. Go look at the blueprint specifications for that engine, and then go look at the specifications for the 396 and 427 Chevy, just as an example. Compared to the 396/375 with aluminum heads, the 428 you use as an example carries 33 LESS HP, or in A/SA, 264 POUNDS LESS. Now that's not the ONLY example, maybe not even the worst. But it is pretty bad. Yes, the guys who run it are smart in choosing it, and smart in protecting it. But a car that is already slower has gotten more HP in 6 months than it has gotten in two years. The AHFS doesn't have a few minor flaws, it has holes you could damned near drive a Comp car through.

Re: New HP
 

LOOKED at them? I know a guy locally who runs a REAL one. Yes, he carries a lot of weight. But it runs pretty damned well, especially considering he has not really thrashed on it. Like I said, word is Henson was already at the weight currently required when he made the pass. Yes, he made it hard on everyone else running the combination. But no, he didn't completely kill it, and no, everyone didn't quit running it.

Re: New HP
 

Over the years Bobby and the Sorensen brothers have raced their cars at Indy.

Also please take a look at the west coast race schedule before putting too much weight into who shows up at Indy. They begin racing very early out there. Racers' fatigue sets in by early summer and a lot of them take a break until the fall races. Many fast racers have made the journey out west for the early and late racing season where they have locked horns with Bobby and the Sorensen brothers.

Bobby has flogged that blue Camaro as hard as any one has ever flogged a stocker and his results have been nothing short of exceptional - AA/SA record holder and first class AA/SA class winner since the return of the class. And don't forget that little 9 second run he made a few years ago - after that run he had the first, if not the only, video taped tear down.

Re: New HP
 

Greg,

Did the 73-80 Corvette get HP? I can't get the class guide to open.

Thanks

Re: New HP
 

That was some of the best air anyone's ever seen when Henson ran the 9.89 at Belle Rose. Ask him. He'll tell you the same thing.

That combo at 457 hp is a total waste of time if you want to be "the guy" in A or AA/SA. Yes, it is still somewhat competitive and a good one will still go fairly fast, but not fast enough. Why do you think West/Henson built the GTX? Fred even tried to put a 4-speed in the Challenger to get around the HP factor. Think he would have done all of that if he thought he could go to Indy and win at 457 hp?

I know how much power those motors make (had a few of them on our dyno) and let me tell you Fred's motor had the same hp as the other ones that I've seen dyno'd. Why haven't you heard about the other ones? They were done after Fred's and now weigh 3840 lbs in A/SA.

Re: New HP
 

Evan Smith is exactly right, it will never be perfect and really can't be adjusted that would make much difference. I have posted on here many times about this subject. Here is the list again:

1) we don't all go to the same machine shop
2) we don't all run the same combination
3) we don't all run the same brand
4) we don't all have equal OEM 'replacement parts' (heads, blocks, etc.)
5) we don't all spend the same amount of money
6) we don't all put the same time and effort into our combo
7) we don't all race at the same races where the conditions could be mind shaft or really bad
8) we don't all run our race cars on kill all the time nor do we want to because of the wear and tear, so it only makes sense to back them down if no heads up are involved
9) we don't all race the same number of races each year, so the data is not consistant
10) there are not the same number of cars that make up each combo, some have 2 or 3 cars (ie. 340) while others have 50 or more (ie. 305's)
11) we don't all own our own machine shops

So with this in mind are we trying to

1) create a socialist class (everyone is the same regardless of time, money and effort)
2) penalize the racers that work hard, spend the time and money to be the best
3) throw out what this class was built on ..... PERFORMANCE

Race and SHUT UP ....

Re: New HP
 

Alan,you make some good points.However,the bottom line is that "Stock Eliminator is NOT a class for everyone and not everyone will be successful"
Did I quote that correctly?
I would put that in bold,but not sure how you do that.

Re: New HP
 

Yes, I said, "Stock Eliminator is NOT a class for everyone, and not everyone will be successful". I stand by that quote, and it has no bearing on whether or not the AHFS system is seriously flawed, nor does it have any bearing on how much effort it would require to fix it. I have no idea what point you are attempting to make by bringing up that quote.

Re: New HP
 

Jared, I'm well aware of the conditions under which Fred made that pass. I'm not sure it was better than the mine shaft air seen at Atco or Mission. The fact remains that very few people will be "the man", regardless of the combination.

The Challenger, with the Hemi, with 2 four barrel carbs, and Hemi heads with big valves, (the Hemi has 2.25 and 1.94 valves compared to 2.19 and 1.84 for the 427, or 2.19 and 1.88 for the ZL-1 and L-88, not to mention nearly twice as much available carburetion)has to weigh 190 pounds more than the 427 Camaro with aluminum heads in A/SA, only 110 pounds more than a ZL-1 Camaro, and only 150 pounds more than an L-88 Corvette. In AA/SA, the Challenger has to weight 3595, 162 pounds more than a 427 Camaro with aluminum heads, 87 pounds more than a ZL-1 Camaro, and 125 pounds more than an L-88 Corvette. Word is there are a couple of really nasty ZL-1 and L-88 cars in the works (Calabro and Fasano are already fast, and Craig Couris is no daisy, either), and there are so few of those cars out there that if any of them hit the trigger, they'll get HP.

And honestly, the 427 Chevy and the Hemi are probably both out of luck to be top dog in A/SA or AA/SA, IF one of the other combinations really wants it. My guess is if Barton or Shaul really want to step up, they can take class and/or the record, the only question is if they want it enough. There might even be a Ford or two that can do it.

Honestly, I hated to see the Hemi get hit, and I know Fred did not mean to do it.

Re: New HP
 

Allen,

Didn't mean to imply that the Hemi was the only over-factored combo in A or AA/SA. I know the 427 has been worked just as hard (if not harder...) than the Street Hemi has been. I'll never forget the weekend Bobby D dropped into the 9's for the first time. We were all rooting for him. I'm also well aware of the differences between the two engines. Believe it or not, I do know a little (emphasis on "little") about Chevrolets! LOL

The Max Wedge and NASCAR Hemi are better combos than the Street Hemi in the Challenger/Barracuda. Due to the flaws in the AHFS system, the Street Hemi in the B-Body is still extremely competitive. I would even venture to say that's the best combo for the class at the moment. Barton's car is very fast and I know Shaul's is as well, but I'm not certain that the Street Hemi can't outrun them in a B-Body.

The A and AA/SA wars should get very interesting in the next couple of years when the new Mustangs and Challengers start popping up. Then we can start this whole debate all over again.

Re: New HP
 

This has been some fun reading.

Re: New HP
 

Larry, you're too easily amused. :D

Hope you, Patsy, and the family had a good Thanksgiving. I may have something for you, but I need to make sure it's worth fooling with.

Re: New HP
 

The truth of the matter is When Fred went the 9.89 he never weighed and there was no fuel check. On that day nobody but Fred knows what he weighed. The day before he was 15 lbs over at 3720 lbs. Trust me there is a whole lot more to this thing than you know.

Re: New HP
 

I use my real name AND my competition number. Any more questions?

Yeah, I've only won one round, and that's because he was more red than I was. Two points races, an open, and a national event. And no, I don't own the car. I do work for the car owner.

Re: New HP
 

Alan, What is a Real one and what do you consider to be running pretty dam well? Since we know pretty much who everybody is that has an E- Body Hemi in the country that runs well, I guess we better find out who your local buddy is.YES, FRED KILLED THE E- BODY STREET HEMI.. Count how many you saw at Indy in the last 2 years. I think Chris Howes was the only one and I don't think he could qualify. I believe he ran a best of 10.38 last year at Indy. I saw that motor on the dyno and it made as much power as Hensens 9.89 motor made on the same dyno.

Re: New HP
 

Could be. I was told by someone who was there that the car was heavy and Fred did not think it would run that fast. Maybe I was not told the truth.

Re: New HP
 

There's a guy here locally named Winkie Knight, he and his brother have an original Hemi car (Challenger or 'Cuda, I can't remember off hand) he runs. It's blue, and he's had it for as long as I can remember. It's not a rocketship, but it's not a total slug, either.

I was not at Indy this year. Chris was there last year, I think, and running 10.60's.

Re: New HP
 

Alan, Fred didn't weigh after the run because he red lit and he was warned by a very respected NHRA tech person prior to the run that he better be careful because the air is dripping oxygen this morning and you will go more than 1.40 under. So once again, nobody but Fred knows what the car weighed. Fred also got that combo hit twice before and should have known better. That same motor is in Ronnie Wests GTX but is rated 27 hp less. at 430 hp. Like I said before there is a whole lot more to this story.

Re: New HP
 

You will never have a PERFORMANCE class when performance is based on shoe polish and a system of random numbers (hp factors) manipulated by the brake pedal, timing or excess ballast. However, I can fully understand trying to protect your combo under such a system. Truthfully no one should be able to protect a combo in a perfect world. (ET vs. MPH)

Re: New HP
 

Come on Kevin.You know that John is smart enough to lift when he has to.The AHFS is preety much in black and white.
Geez and easy with those question marks,i'm getting dizzy.

Ed