Re: Factory experimental
 

Chuck,
As I remember you were the one doing all the mega-complaining about those cars when they came out! And you're still complaining about them; after all these years.

You can bet we'll be on the 2010 Corvette too. This is not about OEM favorites it's about the OEM's abusing the Stock category - with nhra's help and gratitude of course.

Re: Factory experimental
 

How's this for a new NHRA/IHRA Stock Eliminator Rule. Beginning at Pomona 2009, ANY PURPOSE BUILT CAR, ( that's what NHRA call's 'em, We call them PAPER CARS.) Will be limited to only (1) one Stock Eliminator Class; AA/S or AA/SA. This will include; ANY CAR with Factory installed lightweight components.ie: Alum. Front End Cars. ALSO, any cars with non - factory reproduction parts; ie; Edelbrock Heads. ALL 1965 Nascar 4 Barrel Hemi Cars. ALL Shelby Mustangs. ANY NEW purpose built factory race cars; including; The New Mustang. The Drag Pac Challenger. And the proposed Camaro.

Would this be fun or what? Let 'em Stand on the gas! It could be the SS/AH of Stock, plus it would de- contaminate current stock elim. from the sand baggers.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Chuck I remember when the LT1's came out at 275 hp. Pontiac was the official NHRA car and they were capable of running a second under with a cam change , rear gear and headers. The reason NHRA had to make the fuel injected classes is that they wouldn't factor the engines properly. After 66 hp on the LT1's they are no better than a lot of combinations. My biggest concern with the new Ford and Chrysler cars is that they are factory built race cars and always before would be in Super stock, aka. the 68 Cuda's and Darts. If the LT1's were still at 275 hp you would be bitchin too. If these new cars are factored properly they will be out of stock eliminator because they won't fit because of the weight break.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce,
You must be old like me, you need to check your memory, I don't recall complaining about them, I just raced against them ...

Re: Factory experimental
 

Now look at it this way. The first year with a new engine/vehicle combo that comes out underfactored will be tough on existing cars in their class - nothing to debate. BUT look at the fact that there are many of these cars being built so there will be a bunch of them running. With several cars being built there are going to be times or people that hang them out there and show what they can do. Someones ego will kick in becuase they wanna win class or another heads up pass - short list of people out there that actually will lift and give up the stripe to save index in Super Stock (we're not Comp racers). Just like the LT1 and LS motor cars - they'll right themselves within a couple seasons.

Look at the new combos as stimulating the racing economy - if its such an easy car to build and be competitive, a bunch will be built (just like the LT1/LS1 cars were) which supports race shops and parts suppliers - the same group of people we're all crying are not paying contingency. Heck if no new combos came around the race shops and parts suppliers would dry up if they weren't selling consumable items.

Re: Factory experimental
 

guys. the 93 camaro/Firebird was rated by GM at 275, it gained 10 HP somewhere along the way (with the exception of the SS/Ram Air cars). The LS F bodys were factory rated at 305 for the non ram air cars. The SS and Ram Air cars DO carry extra HP. Those cars were rated at their factory ratings when introduced into stock eliminator

Re: Factory experimental
 

Chuck,

We are all getting older, but you must remember that we have been crossing paths for about 13 years now. You were not at all happy about those cars.

But those cars were nothing compared to the little Supercharged monsters that are about to come in and raid the cookie jar - with nhra's help of course. You can't compare these After Market Super Stockers with anything that we have seen before in Stock.

Let's wait' n see!!

Re: Factory experimental
 

I as talking to some kids racing Subaru's this past weekend, they told me that they switched from C16 to E85 gas and pickup up 30HP. I know that we are on the subject of F/E cars. Well it's a good thing NHRA doesn't allow the Subaru's to race in stock. Is E85 gas allowed in stock? I'm not sure if it's a spec gas. If it is, the supercharged and turbo charged cars will go even faster then what is expected. The 4 door bone stock looking Subaru ran 10.82 @ 135 MPH granny shifting @ 3400 lbs. One of the kids told me that his ran in the low 9's and is street driven.
This tells you the potential of the Cobra's with the supercharger. The Subarus are 4 cylinders and a small turbo.
Casey Miles
248H E/S because of 4HP

Re: Factory experimental
 

You are now finding out the real reason AA/S and AA/SA classes were added to Stock. And you thought it was just so older Mopar and Vettes would have a place to race. For those who campaigned for the new class.......live with it. For others.......enjoy the new show because its going to get interesting.

Re: Factory experimental
 

and just how were we supposed to forsee this happening

Re: Factory experimental
 

Super Sport,

You must not have been paying attention when they announced the return of these classes. We started several threads about these classes being tied to Mother Mopar efforts.

Re: Factory experimental
 

When I started racing back in the 70's the first time I raced at the Nationals(now the Mac Tools U.S. Nationals), I raced in SS/U and there was a Pontiac wagon driven by Jack Mullins in the class. Later on in the 70's I raced in Modified Eliminator and in A/SM and Don Bowles had a Fairmont in the class. For those who don't remember or didn't know, these were both killer cars that went alot faster than anyone else in the class. A few years later, fast forward to the early 90's, I raced in SS/J and Dick Sherman was one of the fast guys and had alot more money than me. I had decided at that time that I would no longer run from anyone and just race in the class I wanted to. Sometime in the 90's Bobby Cunningham had a very fast SS/J Firebird and I decided to go to Indy anyway. Well the week before Indy he crashed the car at Bowling Green, very unfortunate for him but I got the class trophy at Indy(not the way I wanted to win a trophy). A few years later Charlie Westcott said he was going to race in GT/G at Indy but I went there and ran him anyway. Well, I was lucky once again. I have always been a low budget guy and not a fast qualifier but you can either suck it up and race, or cry and complain about the killer cars that have a performance edge on you. If you work hard enough and focus on your own program instead of somebody elses, you might get lucky too. Now they may have spent more money or gained an edge because of Nhra's factors, or just plain outworked you, or all of the above. Killer cars have been a part of the sport since I started racing and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Isn't that why they call it racing instead of winning?

Re: Factory experimental
 

My opinion, once these cars are let into stock they will never get factored out! Like someone posted earlier, AA/S and AA/SA will be a class just for these cars. If anybody wants to come play against
them with an old combo then jump in!! I dont like it and would vote against these cars to be allowed
in Stock!!

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce,
It could have been 20 yrs for all I know, I don't know where you are getting your info, but I don't run against LT1's or LS1's anymore, they dont' fit in F or G. I don't recall being mega-complaining (whatever that means) about them either. You must be thinking of someone else ... I enjoy class racing and that's why I run stock. I am always up to the challenge. Not to take away from anyone else at Indy 2008, but I think B/SA and G/SA were the largest classes and the most challenging ... take a chill pill and let's see how these cars pan out over the next year (if anyone can afford to build one). AHFS will take care of the rest ... LOL

Re: Factory experimental
 

This is just a personal opinion and only time will tell if I am correct,but the IHRA Crate Motor classes will eventually make their way over to NHRA.After all,the car being discusssed basically is a crate motor.The A/CM class is currently 6.00-6.49 weightbreak.That might eventually be converted to an AAA or AAAA class if the crate motors are combined into the "regular" classes.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Chuck,

How could I possibly confuse you with anybody else? I realize you are not racing these cars today but I'm not the only one who knows you have never been a fan of those cars.

Now back to the topic at hand.

442

Crate motors may run in Stock some day. It appears that all you have to do is have a pocket full of cold hard cash.

Re: Factory experimental
 

This year is goig to be the most fun a person can have, and still have there clothes on!!!!!!! John Lang

Re: Factory experimental
 

A friend sent this over.

http://www.roushperformance.com/new2...ce=motorsports

Re: Factory experimental
 

The vast majority of those of us who did campaign for AA/S and AA/SA had a good idea this would happen. Not necessarily to what degree, but we had a good idea that it was coming. When we were told a little over a year ago that the classes would indeed be added, we knew that they were not just added for the 427 Chevy cars, the 426 Hemi cars, and a couple of the Fords. We knew all along we did not have enough status with NHRA to get us there. It always amused me this year when someone said to me "I guess you can just go get whatever you want, you got NHRA to make a class for you". That's funny, I don't care who you are.

There will not be very many of these new cars out there. In any event, whether or not they belong, they're here, and like a lot of other things we don't necessarily like about NHRA, we'll just have to live with them.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I've always thought if Detroit builds them, NHRA should race 'em!

I also have to believe that if NHRA allows Shelby, Roush and who knows who else, they should allow factory "recognized & produced" combo's in the Superstock classes. Yes, that would be vehicles like not only the 1969 but 1970 SS / AMX (AMC approved both years), X-Ram Z-28's of 1967-1969, RAV GTO / Firebird, Stage II Buick 455's, Croo-Boss equipped Boss 302 Mustangs, LS7 Chevelles and that's all I can think of right now.
Yes, it COULD be exciting times at the drag strip! :)

Re: Factory experimental
 

Jeff Lee said, "I've always thought that if Detroit builds them, NHRA should race 'em."

Well, "Detroit" didn't build this last Roush-inspired race car. If that car goes anywhere, it needs to be put into Super Stock where it can frolic and play with those of its own kind, the Hemi-powered light-weight '65 Mopars, Z-11 '63 Chevys (are they legal yet for S/S?), Thunderbolts and cross-ram AMX's.

Apples and apples...

Putting those cars into Stock Eliminator is a big mistake, in my opinion. Oh yeah; nobody asked me.. :(

As regards, " It is believed that this is the first time the NHRA has approved an aftermarket powertrain for competition." can you say "single 4bbl 1967 Shelby 428 GT500"???

Do these people who write this stuff live in a cave???

jeesh...

Re: Factory experimental
 

I think one of these cars in Stock is too many.

We fight tooth and nail with nhra for common sense application of their rules and then they throw the rule book out the window to allow an After Market Super Stock car to run in Stock. This one is clearly a class killer and nhra could give a rats behind. What about their rules?

We get beat up over pistons, heads, intakes, etc. and yet these new After Market cars can run anything they want. Why should we have to worry about our parts being exact when these new cars are getting away with this stuff?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Been gone a while, come back and read this.

What's the best thing that could happen to S&SS? Get the factories involved again. Oh yeah others wrote, a new mustang running a camaro and a challenger! WOW too cool! Maybe it would open up some eyes and finally get at least some recognition and respect. Yeah, can't wait.....

Couple months later the cars are in the guide...and the whiners who whine about EVERYTHING have something new to whine about. You guys are un frigging believable! Big Daddy is going to race a mopar in STOCK, the factories are getting involved, new cars,new blood etc is coming to S/SS and you guys piss and moan???

HOLY %^&*!

A front engine dragster to bracket race is looking more appealing after reading this crap. Go back 50 pages/a year ago or so and reread some threads. Same guys bitching about something else which at that point in time "will ruin class racing". Go back a 100 pages, yup the same group, only a NEW thing to bitch about. 200 pages....yup

Let's see, fords/paper cars, waaa. 305hp too low, waaa. carb/inj, waaa. turbo's, waaaa. A vette that never hit the track yet got 75hp off and will dominate EVERTHING!, waaaa. adj buttons, waaa. alum heads,waa. aftermarket brakes, waaa

On and on it goes.

IF THE CARS ARE IN THE GUIDE THEN THEY ARE ALLOWED TO RACE, IF THEY ARE NOT THEN THEY CAN'T! PERIOD!

When you have new cars coming out with unheard of hp, what are you going to do? What about the guy running a stock flathead who see's the hemi? WAAAAA, I have 85hp and he has 425hp, that car shouldn't be allowed! The factories will ruin everything! See the new ecoboost flex coming out in 2010? 355HP!!
Yes that's right, a frigging minivan with a twin turbo 355hp v-6 from the factory!

There is a reason pre 60 cars are not in the guide anymore (I know 55 chebby's) point is, a well set up inline 8 buick just won't compete to a screaming 2.3L turbo or a 305 etc. Stop all the personal agenda's, let the legal cars run.


[flaming in 3...2...1...]

Re: Factory experimental
 

Says the man with no dog in the hunt.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Well said Goinbroke2, welcome back ...

Re: Factory experimental
 

Reminds me of the guy who stands off to one side and says, "Let's you and him fight!!!"

You don't have to have an agenda OR a dog in the hunt to realize that "Stock" carries with it the implication that the cars racing in that eliminator will have come down an assembly line at some point in their lives, as COMPLETE CARS....

Stock Eliminator was never intended for cars created as purpose-built race cars by the aftermarket.

That's not whining (and, why would I; I don't run a car in Stock Eliminator), it's just fact.

Re: Factory experimental
 

What Bill said!

SSJA,

It makes a lot of difference when you have dumped a lot of time and money into a project to see it blown away by a greedy OEM and the other guy hasn't invested a nickel.

Chuck,

It's nice to see you have become such a magnanimous old soul in your old age.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Ah yes, a song by the master of all whiners. A whiner with a nasal tone, and a bad case of permanently stoned.

Re: Factory experimental
 

When the wt/hp factor makes the car carry excessive weight,looks like a good candidate for Super Stock.Evan Smith's car is a good example.The car was originally going to run Stock.Didn't fit so it's a SSer.Ford T bolts and others,same thing.
Have fun with the front engine dragster.You can go on the bracket racing section now and make your mark.

Ed F.

Racers didn't create this mess.NHRA tech did.

Re: Factory experimental
 

A guys house is on fire and the bucket brigade is doing the best they can to fight it. A brand new fire truck pulls up with massive hoses and big pumps.
Your one of the bucket brigade who is complaining the truck will put the brigade out of work/you can't compete with it/it's not fair/the truck is more complicated than a bucket and will be unreliable.

Yes some of the guys will quit the brigade and start driving the truck, running the ladder, running the hoses etc. Others will say "I've been running this bucket for 30+ years, I'll race that truck instead of change". Others unfortunately will simply give up and quit firefighting.

Meanwhile there is a bystander watching (with no dog in the fight, truck or bucket) and say
"ISN'T THE IMPORTANT THING, THE HOUSE THAT IS ON FIRE"?

It's not all about YOU Bruce, or anybody else and their combo. The important thing is that S/SS survives and flourishes. I love S/SS (was sarcastic about the digger) and the big picture is, this can be the opening it needs, if viewed as a glass-half-full.

I see more potential benefit to allowing the new mustangs/camaro's/challengers into Stock, even if they do get booted to SS next year. Just the fact that NEW cars which are exciting (no offence to lower class new cars) will be drawing in not only big names like BIG and others, but also it shows the toyota and honda driving fans that the domestic's are still alive and kicking hard!

The downside is a possible #1 qualifier "ringers" until they're factored. There have been MANY new combo's that were declared the end of S/SS....and yet it survives. Imagine what will happen when it's not just another car on the track but a new one with factory support, and the wins are used in commercials/adds by the manufacture?

Re: Factory experimental
 

700 Horse power and a 7.5 weight break makes the Mustang 5250 pounds.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Tell that to going broke2.He must have missed my post.I'd like to see where they hide that weight.

Re: Factory experimental
 

" The pump don't work 'cause the vandals took the handle"

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bucket? I like my old bucket. It still does everything that I need a bucket to do. I also like the fact that I can still s**t in my bucket and throw it all over your shiny pumper truck!

Re: Factory experimental
 

GoingBroke,

You don't get it do you? I guess you don't get it because you don't have anything invested in this issue.

And NO I don't think this is all about ME. You can come up with all these oddball comments, but you have not offered anything to this discussion. NO you don't have to agree with me but it is important for all of us to note that you have nothing to lose from your point of view.

This issue of After Market Super Stock Cars in Stock harms dozens of racers and it is important that we understand what Ford and nhra are up to. Now from your selfish point of view it is okay for a willful nhra to allow these After Market Super Stock Cars to run in STOCK. Even though this corrupt decision by nhra will turn millions of dollars of great race cars in to glorified door stops. And NO this issue is not all about me. It's about ALL of us who have worked hard, spent our hard earned dollars to build these damn cars to nhra specifications only to be back stabbed by a greedy sanctioning body and OEM's. It's total crap and you can sit back and chuckle all you want but this corrupt behavior by nhra and Ford is hurting a lot of racers. You guys don't have to like my suggestion for putting these cars in a Factory Experimental class, however, they should not be in our regular Stock classes. These cars don't represent a slight change in the way we race. They are category killers. And in the end you will see that it impacts all the classes not just the AA and A classes. I'm sure nhra would love to see these Super Stockers in the hands of enough millionaires where they could dump all the classes and pass them off to the public as the New Stock Eliminator.

Good luck!

Re: Factory experimental
 

Well said Bruce. Allowing aftermarket purpose built race cars in stock eliminator is a perversion of the rules. Stock was created for regular assembly line cars that available to the public. The motor in this Mustang is not even available in a production Mustang. I notice that most of the people who favor this don't race in Stock with the exception of my good friend Chuck. Those of you who think this will make stock stronger don't have a clue. One other thing, perversion of the rules is becoming commonplace with NHRA these days.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Once again, NHRA completely ignores the law of unintended consequences, in a quest for the biggest payoff. There used to be a rule against aftermarket "tuner cars", especially those with superchargers. Anyone else actually look at the supercharger on this particular combination, and what it is actually designed to fit? When this first leaked out a while back, I did. If you know anything about engines, supercharging, and racing, you'll understand, if you don't, well, no one will ever help you figure it out. In the past, cars like this were either illegal, or immediately placed in Super Stock or another class where they actually belong.

It's funny, the ZL-1 Camaro, an actual factory production car that met all the rules, was removed from the class guide, and only recently (2005) reinstated. Funnier still, the factory production 1967 Corvette L-88 was also removed, on grounds that not enough were produced, when 36 were sold to the public, and dozens were given to racers (easily making the 50 car quota). But there are other cars that were never actually sold to the public that are allowed, and even racers and fans of that brand say they should not be.

The factory Challenger is one thing, but a Roush supercharged car is entirely different. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the "base brand" of the car, either.

Now, the next thing is, a bunch of people will come in saying this is all just a bunch of whining by the Chevy guys. Wrong again. It won't be just a few guys with L-88 Corvettes, LS-6 Chevelles, and the ZL-1 or L-72 Camaros, there'll be plenty of guys with even more expensive Hemi cars, and 427 Fords that get the short, but stiff, end of the stick from NHRA on this one. Some of those guys have had their cars for 30, and some even close to 40, years. I guess NHRA has already had enough of their little guy dollars, they're ready to take some big bucks from the factory and the tuner.:rolleyes:

Re: Factory experimental
 

Wow! I guess that I can die in my sleep and be a happy man! First Bruce and now Greg! Hey guys, while I will agree with you both 100% about "Factory Superstockers" coming into Stock, the "Perversion of the rules" has been going on for so long now (and usually with certain racers approval) that I'm sure that the suits in Glendora just figure this latest perversion is just the norm. We need the OEMs if for nothing else then for the publicity that they can generate. BUT, we need them participating within the "intent and spirit" of the rules. As far as I'm concerned, we all brought this upon ourselves by allowing "the rules" to be stretched and bent (and ignored) to the point that even I (the dumb s**t that I am) know that Stock is not Stock anymore. I feel that the dreaded AHFS was just NHRAs way of telling us"we can't enforce the rules anymore so go ahead and enhance heads and intakes and run parts breaker cams and we'll just tag on some HP". Greg, you and Woodro seem to be driving this runner volume issue and I'm going to guess (and I'll bet that it's a pretty good guess) that it's being driven to just try and make legal some "enhanced" heads that aren't legal now. Oh but let's see, now we've got NO valve seat rule and any steel valve which is going to make our runners bigger. I fail to see a difference between what Ford and Chrysler are doing with engines that never came in cars and what we are doing with valves, heads, brakes, fuel cells, ceramic lifters,wheelie bars, etc that never came in cars. BTW, LT1s never came in 98 Firebirds.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Billy, it seems to me there is a large difference between allowing a small variance in runner volumes because of rule changes over the years and letting a blown aftermarket built race car in stock.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Greg, they are both "perversions of the rules". Period. I guess that the difference you are seeing is that it's OK to steal a little but it's not OK to steal a lot!