Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

I knew that but didn't mention it in my post because of it's impracticality; driveline breakage would be the rule, not the exception, at 3920 lbs
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Ed, they still have quite a bit of leeway, consider this; 2 of the CJs at Pomona were in A/S and A/SA, they weighed 3570 lbs (8.00 lbs/hp = 3400 lbs +170 = 3570 lbs.) If the CJs are hit with 35 hp which would bring them to 460 hp; they would have to weigh 3620 lbs in AA/S (7.50 lbs/hp = 3450 lbs +170 = 3620) which is only 50 lbs more than than John Calvert in A/S and Gary Stinnett in A/SA had to weigh at Pomona.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

It's very easy to under stand.What are the engine specs betwwen the 500 HP engine and the 425 HP engine?
Do you understand what I'm leading up to?
Ed F.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

I suppose that nhra and Ford sat down several times over a period of months and hashed out a deal. They appear to have covered all the minimum requirements to sell this deal to the public and the racers. Sure it's a Ford Racing Parts car that did not flow from an assembly line to the track. But Ford covered the 50 unit requirement by selling them through their dealerships. No big deal. nhra and Ford covered all the bases; except one.

nhra did not make a good faith effort to determine the actual Horsepower figures on these motors. I recieved an overnight letter from nhra, signed by Glen Gray and Danny Gracia. The letter simply stated that they accept the manufacturers figures and reserve the right to make adjustments. I guess they were referring to the ahfs.

nhra needs to do it's job! I would like to see one of the new CJ cars that will be coming out of MPR (or any other high value shop) on an independent chassis dyno. I don't think it is too much to ask nhra to find an independent shop with a knowledgeable tuner to test one of these race ready CJs and issue a public report. Then, if they want, we can locate some really fast 396, 427, 426 and 428 cars to go on the same dyno with the same tuner. The new CJ owners and tuners should have no problem with this suggestion.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Bill, nothing would give me greater satisfaction (other than becoming the first fwd Stocker racer to win a national/divisional event this century, and then follow that up by becoming the first fwd multiple race winner, as well as the first Top 10 points finisher ever nationally or divisionally), than to line up next to anyone driving one of those imported cars in Stock Eliminator! Bandimere Speedway had a racer named Mitch Baker that came to an import race with a Toyota Tundra p.u. back in 2002? Because of his savy with racing Pro ET cars to be one of Bandimere Speedways winningest racers in the tracks history, it was no surprise that he made it to the final round in that truck...what might not have been much of a surprise was who met him in the other lane in the final round---ME & my Z24 Chevy Cavalier. Unfortunately, I was sooo amped up to beat this so-called F100, Silverado, & Ram beater (when I had to spot it nearly 1.5sec!!!), that I over-shifted my stock auto tranny (shifter) from 1st to neutral, and even though I caught him at the 330ft mark, he got away and held me off by 3/4's of a truck length to get the win. My point being that I'd have to screw-up BIG-TIME, in order for an imported car to beat me in a stock-eliminator type race...bring them on, cause I was born ready, and I'll be thinking of Dec. 7 1941 every time I race one!!!

To you guys on point with the 2008 Cobra Jet in Stock thing, I apologize for being off thread with this reply, but it was the only way I could respond to Bills phrase...besides I wasn't the one who spoke about the 100mph awd import car in the first place!!!

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Why stop there. Why don't we get every combo in the class guide on that dyno?

Have you been hangin' with Michael Phelps?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

No-namer,
I don't know where you guys get off with the smart remarks all the time but it isn't helping your cause. We aren't talking about every car on the sheet. We are talking about just one. A car that has no nhra history and one that nhra admits they have not investigated. Now stay on topic and drop the dopey remarks.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

So lets say they put it on a chassis dyno and it make 550hp at the rear wheels. What do you think NHRA should do?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Since when has the NHRA ever done what you are requesting? Are you willing to have your new Corvette's HP adjusted in the same way? If they do that for one combination they have to do it for every combination. Then you will get all the comments about sandbagging on the dyno pulls when the results aren't what people want to see.

Let the Cobra Jets have their day in the sun.

Daren Poole-Adams
IHRA 9043

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Why is it so clear that these cars are so GROSSLY underfactored? Why can they not produce 600+ HP in race trim - the older combinations in A & AA do and most are factored at equal or less HP than the Cobra Jet (A couple of the Hemis are factored higher but not by much). Again take a guess at how much HP it takes a 67 Fairlane to go 138mph - it's a helluva lot more than 425. The system has never been based on legitimate HP since the rules started allowing Stock to not be "stock".

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

It is like 1964 all over again, only in 2009 there is only ford playing the game.
In 64 ford had the dual quad high riser Tbolt, chevy had their lightweigt impalas and biscaynes with either the Z-11 or "mystery motor" and chrysler had their acid dipped 330's complete with hemi 426's
Add in the 421 super duty light weight pontiac catalinas and the game was on.
Everyone had a lot of fun until they started building funny cars.

Just let it happen, it is good for the sport and the manufacturers. Even the ones that aren't playing the game right now.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Guys,
I think the CJs are really neat race cars. I look forward to watching them run, but it would be very helpful for those of us who have something at stake in this issue to know that nhra is at least attempting to do it's job. So far the guys who have been hammering away at my posts on this subject don't have a car in these classes and in some cases they don't race at nhra events. Nothing is foolproof but searching for a reasonable solution makes sense.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Items like missing safety bumpers, lite-weight windows, those are items that make a car built by the OEM not DOT legal. Am I wrong? And in Stock Eliminator, it is not legal to ad or remove such items. Right?
I know the Challenger has such items and I believe the CJ500 has the same items. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
And the Challenger has non-EPA approved engine(s). I'm all for these cars being built by the factory and raced in Superstock were traditionally that is were factory "experimentals" were placed.
I even think some cars like the GT500 Shelby should be placed in Stock as they do in fact offer such a car and it is street legal. It would be great if ther was a weight-break for all the new hot rods, even the 638 HP 'Vette. I think it's great for the sport. But if it's an "experimental" nothing has changed since 1968. It's a Superstocker.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

ABSOLUTELY!!!

THAT is my point exactly! Yes the hemi's will get their ego's bruised, but if a new car (600+hp corvette or mustang or camaro, challenger whatever) comes out it should have a place to race. When an AWD minivan comes out with 355hp from the factory (eco boost flex) and runs in the 10's with tweeking, what are you going to do? A four door twin turbo fusion sport tweeked for class runs in the 10's? You have to realize that technology is making new cars faster/quicker/more efficient/etc.

Do you want nascar? Pushrods and carb's only? Forever? Yeah we can dumb down classracing so the hemi can always be the pinnacle and get all the limelight, but don't you think it will be a little silly when a factory muscle car eventually outruns it?

1963 racers are running all out flathead racecars and a factory 427/421/426/whatever pulls up and outruns them, what did they do, outlaw the factory cars? Think that NO CAR WILL RUN THE 12'S FROM THE FACTORY! No they moved on and embraced technology.

The hey days of class racing just might be back, yeah there is a perceived advantage for ford this year. Next year it could be mopar with the challenger underrated. Maybe 2011 will be chevies response to ford and mopar!
GUYS it's like 1960 all over. And from '60-'70 each took their turn at the top of the heap only to be replaced by the next ringer from the next manufacturer.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Nope I don't have a AA or A stocker myself. But as Lead Product Engineer at Eaton Supercharger and technical advisor to Ford Racing on the supercharger I'd say I've got a dog in this one and I'm up for as much constructive discussion as the umpteen thousand viewers of the multiple posts on this subject are hoping to see. And while I want to see my product successful it needs to as evenly matched as possible to the more established combinations. Since there is no way to know the absolute performance potential of any factory produced engine prior to someone spending the time and money to build it and put it through its paces. So the options are to either change the name of the current category to Nostalgia Super Stock and do not allow any new combinations or try to constructively support NHRA in keeping the playing field as level as possible.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

I just read up on the CJ500 to verify. It does not appear to have lite-weight parts in the package like the Challenger. The CJ500 is however a package NOT offered by Ford for public use on public roads. If you want a Mustang with a supercharged 5.4l, you need to buy a Shelby.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Jeff - 5pt harnesses, open header exhaust and slicks are not DOT legal and every stocker has them. Again the body and the major powertrain components (the parts you can't change) are all parts that are OEM available., only exception could be the hood but the cars are not setup to utilize the cold air functionality.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Some seem to think placing these cars into stock eliminator is the same as the muscle cars invading stock in the 60's. This is far from what took place.
In the 60's everyone was trying to go as fast as possible. The factories were trying to out run each other and that sold cars...cars that anyone could buy off the showroom floor. There wasn't an index that was being protected because you ran off of national records. The new cars didn't fit into existing classes so NHRA created new classes. The new cars were NOT placed in classes where older cars had previously raced. It seems that some common sense was used in creating those classes, as it has lasted until today.
NHRA has done many things, under the pretense of leveling the playing field. I guess they forgot about a level playing field when they received their stimulus package from Ford. These cars should be in super stock or in a class for S/C vehicles. Talk about bringing a knife to a gunfight........and the engines haven't been treated to the 'stock rules' yet.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Tim,
I'm convinced you know about these things. Please ask nhra to put one of your race ready machines to work on a chassis dyno. There is no point in beating this thing to death when the dyno numbers will tell everyone what we need to know. Isn't that the best way to resolve this issue?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Tim you said

Why can they not produce 600+ HP in race trim - the older combinations in A & AA do and most are factored at equal or less HP than the Cobra Jet (A couple of the Hemis are factored higher but not by much you said

Are you saying this is what they are producing? Most people seem to think these cars will produce 700+HP or more. This is the problem.

Hey Arnold I see you chimed in here. I think you are as fast as any in these catagories wih the 427,s and 396,s. Do you think you can run with these new players??

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Tim your putting a spin on the issue by citing what's not factory about Stock Eliminator vehicles. It should be clear I'm making a point that this CJ500 package is just that, a package and it is nothing that is available from Ford for use by the public on public roads. You can not walk into any Ford dealership and buy a Mustang with a 5.4L SC engine and drive away with car and license plates and insurance. And Stock Eliminator has ALWAYS been to showcase what is possible with factory produced, legal for street use vehicles. I can't think of ANY exceptions over the last 50+ years. Shelby offers a 5.4L SC engine so that is perfectly acceptable.
To side with Bruce on this, the disadvantage to other Stock racers is he and others are forced to run factory specialty race-specific vehicles against true production vehicles. I'm not talking SC or HP advantage, I'm talking production.
And to drive the point even deeper, Mercury (argueably) built the first flip-top funny car in 1966. Then if they built 50, should that car be eligible for Stock Eliminator?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Question: Why would Ford hesitate to want these Mustangs inserted into Super Stock where they truly belong?
Answer: Because they wouldn't be at the top of the heap like in Stock.They would blend into the
scenery.
Possibly Glendora saw an opportunity to milk some sort of corporate advantage to let Ford have their way.
Make sense?

Ed F.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Jeff you have a misperception about the current Ford Shelby GT500 Mustang. This is a fully Ford produced car (8000+/yr are built) built on the standard Mustang assembly line this vehicle comes as you know with a 5.4L S/C engine built on a Ford assembly line. The Shelby name on this car is only badging.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Bruce - without the dyno numbers of the other players in the classes they would be pointless. You need both data sets (Cobra Jet and current players) to establish a true power to weight ratio that would allow all combinations to be set dead even. All contingent on everyone showing what they had which we know isn't feasible as that gives away any of the hard work and money spent by those that are currently class leaders. I'm sure NHRA is watching the performance of these cars far more than you believe.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Jeff Lee wrote: "And Stock Eliminator has ALWAYS been to showcase what is possible with factory produced, legal for street use vehicles. I can't think of ANY exceptions over the last 50+ years."

Well, not to muddy the water here, but tell me, Jeff; how many 1967 Shelby GT500s have you encountered on the street EVER, with one 4 barrel carburetor (to say nothing of the optional heads and cam they are running in Stock, all with the blessing of the NHRA Tech dept.)????????

Just answer me that, please... or, this: Did you ever see an advertisment, brochure, road test, or any other place IN PRINT, that would confirm that these cars were ever built and sold to the general public? Not one shred of evidence of any kind, have I ever seen... have you?

I was a tech inspector handling Stock and Super Stock at my local drag strip in 1967 (Des Moines Dragway) and I had the Class. Guide and received all the "tech bulletins" from NHRA and I never EVER saw one printed word about these '67 single 4bbl GT500's. I asked the GT500 registrar at a national Shelby club as to the number of single 4bbl '67 GT500s built, and he basically told me I was crazy; that there were none built; they all had dual quads and 390 heads.

Now, I am aware of "the letter" and I am not calling into question the legality of these cars. Not at all. NHRA has made them legal, they have raced, and it's a done deal...

But, you mentioned, "Stock Eliminator has ALWAYS been to showcase what is possible with factory produced, legal for street use vehicles. I can't think of ANY exceptions over the last 50+ years."

Would this not be an exception?

Just playing Devil's advocate, here... I think they belong in Super Stock... Why? Because the mph these cars seem capable of is indicative of a horsepower output that, when properly factored, will be beyond the scope of AA/S (7.5 pounds-per-cubic inch)...
but, then, nobody asked me... LOL!

Bill

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Tim,
I think you know better than that. Let's put the CJ on a dyno. I have already suggested that we put other top performers on the dyno at the same time. We can do that. You get a race ready CJ and we'll be glad to produce other cars for comparison. We are not afraid of comparing our cars. Why hide with the CJ? Steve at Ford Racing Parts said the CJ motor made 680 Horsepower right off the engine builders engine stand. He also said that with more tuning and racing fuel the motor was capable of 750 Horsepower. His words. That is 125 Horsepower more than the very best big block motor. This CJ motor is also rated at 85 nhra Horsepower less that the 281 motor that is rated at 510. Why won't you guys bring this car out and put it on the Dyno? None of the supporters of this car deny that it is putting out huge Horsepower numbers and Steve at Ford Racing Parts said they would not publish the actual numbers because they didn't want nhra to know how much power the motor made. Why run from this issue? Just put a race ready car on the dyno. In fact I'm going to call Hot Rod today and ask them to do it. Nobody knows what their response will be but their name is connected with this car now and it may prove to be a very interesting article.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

What do you want NHRA to do once they get a dyno number?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

There is so much sandbagging in Stock that no one really knows what any car is capable of. Virtually every fast racer has 'bagged in one way or another. It doesn't matter whether you lift, hit the brakes, switch classes, run heavy, etc. etc., sandbagging is sandbagging.

Not showing your hand, whether on track or with under-rating engines has been a part of Stock since its inception. Unless racers run there cars balls-to-the wall all the time (which we all know won't happen), we will never really know how much power any engine makes, how fast we can go, or what the REAL factors should be. In time, just like with other combos, we will see what the CJ can do. I agree that the CJ is underrated, but so were/are many, many other engines.

With that, why should CJ racers be the only ones to have published hp figures or hp figures known to NHRA? NHRA is not going to purchase every combo to determine its real output. Do it for one, do it for all! Doing chassis dyno tests won't work either because it is nearly impossible to extract good data with slipper clutches and/or loose converters. I know this first-hand.

Lastly, the idea that Ford or Ford Racing paid NHRA money on the sly to approve this combo is inaccurate. While I am certainly not privy to all inner workings and meetings, I can tell you that Brian Wolfe (Director of Ford Racing) and his team would sooner race elsewhere than to "slide" NHRA money for anything. I tire of hearing these silly accusations by the uninformed who are fishing for something to bitch about. There have been some valid points made about this CJ topic by Bruce and others, but some of the crap is just plain idiotic. With all the new high-hp cars on the horizon perhaps it's time for lighter weight breaks. We need more proactive "tuning" of the rules by NHRA. I totally respect the concerns of those with the proverbial "dog-in-the-fight," but some of the statements made by grown men are childish, uninformed and made by the same old nay-sayers who never have a positive thing to say about anything. Stock is far from perfect, but if this form of racing is so bad then quit crying and go fishing.

Evan

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Ed F.,

You can look at the engine specs on line and see the differences, but in a nutshell, the CJ has less compression by a full point (which is a big deal even with a blower), smaller valves, smaller cams and smaller throttle body.

Evan

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Evan,

I looked up the blueprint specs for the 07 GT500 and the 08 CJ and I don't see the differences that you are talking about. (Specs don't have a GT500 for 08) The valves are the same size. The TB is 2x62mm for both. Compression is only 0.12 less due to a slightly greater deck height. But yes, the cam is smaller in the CJ. Am I looking at a different spec. than you?
Thanks for clarifying...
Fred




500 330(S) 9.5 EFI FORD RF7R3V-9K461 lower 1.81 H/R 48.0 B,2
500 330 .059 Dish .128” 13.5 cc 2@1456/2@1259 468/468 .037 Beehive


425 330 9.38 Supercharged EATON RF7R3Z-9K461 1.8 H/R 48.0 B,3,4
425 330 .074 Dish .118” 13.5 cc 2@1456/2@1259 413/413 .037 Beehive

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Evan,
I think we deserve more than what is being offered here. We have seen a lot of spin from the CJ camp as well. But no one on your side wants to talk about the real numbers the CJ motor is making. You can't say that we are not prepared to put our cars up to the same scrutiny that we seek for the CJ. In short the spinning about this car needs to stop. This car is a dramatic departure from any thing that has ever been allowed in Stock and we need to know more about it. Even if the Ford folks want to tag team us with spin and nhra doesn't want to do their job.

I'm going to email several magazines today and explain the situation and ask them to consider latching on to one of these cars. Then tune it up and dyno it. What do I want nhra to do with the Horsepower numbers that may come out of any dyno session? Well, I want them to do their darn jobs. That's what.

I'm not sure about this but I believe Chrysler tried to get the so-called NASCAR Hemi approved at 410 and NHRA bumped it up 20 Horsepower. Apparently they didn't take the manufacturers advice on that one. Why are they doing it with Ford? And why are you guys so unwilling to post the numbers on this car. Most of the racers know what to expect from a maxed out 396, 426, 427 and 428. But we know nothing about your little CJ motor. And nhra should know what this motor is making and they don't. The shame will be on them for not knowing.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Your still not answering the question as to what you want NHRA to do once they have the number. Do you want them to adjust the HP rating to the results of the test? That would only be fair if your willing to have YOUR combo adjusted also. The combos you talk about are making at least twice the HP than is in the guide. Do you want them adjusted also? What your asking is never going to happen anyway. And the comment about not having a dog in the fight doesn't hold water unless your debuting a new car.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Please, whatever you do, don't force the CJ into Super Stock. It belongs in Stock just like the GT500 that IS a production car. I want to see what it is capable of before its rearend gets chopped up for bigger wheels and before wild cams and intake manifolds get stuffed into it.

I am not saying that the 425 hp is not too low and it definitely should be factored appropriately. From the pictures that I have seen under the hood of these cars, there is a lot of power left there. I see that the power steering pump is on and so is the crank driven water pump. I also see some emission stuff like the crankcase ventilation going to the intake. 500 hp just like the GT500 is not unreasonable.
Someone also mentioned reorganizing the classes so that the A class starts at 5.0 or 6.0instead of 8.0....Great idea!

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

I have nearly five years and money I can't metion tied up in a 71 Corvette (AA,A,B) car that will race in just a few weeks. Hopefully Acto or Maple Grove. Even though you own a SS Mustang you still have no dog in this little match; but you are entitled to your opinion. This site is available to everyone and they may offer a fair comment at any time. But it is important for those of us who read these threads to know who really is involved and who isn't. Just my .02.

It goes with out saying that all these motors are rated on a curve. Lets' say my motor is rated at 420 and it makes 590 HP. Let's look at a really well prepped 427 that is rated at 425 and it is making 620 Horsepower. From these two examples, a reasonable person might expext to see a 700+ horsepower motor rated at 475 - 490 Horsepower. It's not difficult or complicated to fairly rate a combination, if you are at least in the right ball park on the power.That is why it is important to determine a fair Horsepower value for the CJ motor. Right now nhra is not in the right ball park with the CJ because they didn't care enough about Stock to do their homework.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Bruce,

I am not a representative of Ford, I am only posting my opinion, just like you. I happen to work on a Ford magazine and I race a Ford, but I really am just a car guy. I think it is very cool that the guys at Ford have an interest in Stock Eliminator and they have done quite a bit to help Ford Sportsman racers, such as upping the contingency money and helping with parts. I stated that I agree that the cars are under-rated, but as we all know, this has been going on for a long time. Ford is playing the game that we, and the manufacturers all play. There are other combinations in NHRA Stock that are grossly underrated—some have never even been run hard, such as the Ford Lightning.

I disagree, however, that NHRA should dyno the engines unless they do ALL engines. The fact that you are willing to give up your own engine for testing is meaningless unless EVERY Stock racer does the same. And even then, how can you draw a conclusion based on one engine from only testing each engine type? It doesn't matter if the CJ engine could make 1,000 hp unless NHRA is going to dyno all engines and then factor all engines based on the results. Frankly, it is a moot point as I seriously doubt NHRA is going to set a new precedent for factoring Stockers. I certainly realize that you want to know the full capabilities of the CJ, but I would like to know the same thing about my competition. So would every racer.

Since I don't on a CJ I can't post hp numbers. I have been to one dyno session and since I don't own the car I can not post the hp numbers. That would not be fair.

Evan

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Evan,
We don't need to dyno all the cars in Stock to determine a fair Horsepower value for the CJ. Thanks for your response.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

The two automatic cars at the Winternationals had electric water pump drives and manual racks on them. The four Cobra jets at the Winternationals did not qualify 1,2,3,and 4 and, with the exception of John Calvert, were not the fastest cars in their respective classes , so why can't you guys get over it?

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Just like NHRA was worried about the dyno on '97 '98 firebirds when they came out a runnin' over a second under and 1.35 60 foots.I was there running D against NHRA s' "offical"car,........suck it up or go back to JR.stock.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

Bart,
Thanks for your advice, but this isn't a suck it up issue.

Re: 2008 Cobra Jets belong in Stock
 

They are not running the CJ anywhere near their limits. Clavert ran 10.18 at 112 MPH and Stinnett ran 10.11 at 117 MPH in the 2nd round. :rolleyes: At these times they should be at about 130 MPH... Oh yea, they are 9 second cars and they could have qualified much better.