Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Bruce, not that I am aware of. As far as I know, IHRA follows, or tries to follow, NHRA rules, HP ratings, etc. Some HP factors may differ betwen the two.

Someone (maybe you?) brought up your AA car once. Does this mean no more Battery Mat Camaro? Is it for sale? Someone could have a bad-***, new G/SA-Jr Stocker in their garage soon?

LOL Barry, you're right, that could be the case before too long. What classes would they have to make for those cars? What would one of those fit? AB/SA or AE/SA or AH/SA (A Battery/Stock Automatic or A Electric/Stock Automatic or A Hybrid/Stock Automatic)?

Jared has a Pentastar on top of his Christmas Tree.

B.D. (Yeah...boring night.)

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Mike, it would be A/Shock Automatic....;)

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

I want disagree with you on that one sir, I have never seen where either car was in Stock Eliminator but that but doesn't change the fact that these cars haven't shown that have an overwhelming advantage in the class. Didn't a Q/SA car win today at the Gators? there were several fast AA/SA thru C/SA cars there and they didn't win so what is the issue?

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Jared,
In Stock Eliminator my WAG or wild *** guess is the 6.1L Hemi will initially make 685 HP as a prepared stock eliminator engine following the rules and current tricks of the trade. That's engine Dyno.
My WAG on the 5.4L is 725-750 HP.
Plugging those numbers and weights of 3250 Challenger and 3570 Mustang show both equal at 9.78+/-.
Previously I had predicted by the end of 2009 a Mustang CJ500 will clock a 9.42. So far we've seen an official 9.79 on race #2 so I don't think I'm going to be out in left field on the Mustang prediction.
And I'll bet a 5-speed with the proper race clutch behind a 6.1L Hemi will see at least a 9.55 ET by the end of the year.
My WAG is that by the end of 2009 if a 5-speed Challenger 6.1L is properly built and driven with a high RPM launch (7500 or so) , it will be the fastest car in class. And I don't think a auto trans Challenger will be much slower.
I'm betting the Challengers will always have less traction issues (start and down-track) than the Mustang.
Maybe this should be it's own thread?

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Well, the Mustang won the first race it was entered in, and the Challenger hasn't run yet, so I'm not sure there's much to go by yet, beyond their factors. The Mustang factors are, as almost everone agrees, absurdly soft. That would give them a huge advantage in Class racing, but not necessarily in the Eliminator until they have a race with another similarly-classed car. Ken Miele owns and races arguably the fastest AA/SA car in competition (until these Mustangs came into the picture), and he's admitted that they are a LOT faster than his car... because of the weight they DON'T have to carry, due to their soft factor.

The Challengers are an unknown entity at this point, from where I stand.

As for your question about lower classed cars winning... there is no question. The ONLY problem with all of this as I see it, is the unrealistic HP factor given these blown 'stangs.

Yes, a lower class car won Gainesville, but the advantage that under-factored (such as the Mustang) cars have, disappears in handicap (Eliminator) racing, so the issue is not with cars in other classes... just issues for cars in the under-factored car's class.
It gladdens my heart when a lower-classed car wins; I feel it somehow validates the handicap system's ability to level the playing field between the slower cars and the fast ones. Now, if they'd just get rid if the antique "first red light loses" rule, which deprives the quicker car of his chance to red light if the first car bulbs, then there would be very little to complain about. That would be another step toward making things as fair as they could possibly be.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

I dont think so..there's gonna be a new rule before that happens...going something like: Cars can always stay in stock if they were classed 7.5 or higher when they entered the class...but more likley they will just add 7.0..these new stockers are gonna make SS look silly..thats for sure..

We guys with the older "higher up" cars that dont want or can afford to build something new have to start finding a new venue fast ..these Cars are here to stay..and gonna change the face of Stock and SS forever..and ultimatley kill it i think..in Phoenix half of the field were upper class cars..that means alot of heads up..if there are a total of 8-10 of these new cars at the races..do you really think there will be 40-50 of the old one's there at the same time within a couple of years? probably less than half is my prediction..that means a decline in participants..not good for the class..The fix is FX at 7.0 and put the right factor on them...fast..

p.s That FX-class should be a class in SS not Stock in my opinion..but i can buy that the new cars gets to "shine" in Stock..

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Mike,

Yes the Camaro left a couple months ago and my new car should be out very soon. Thanks for the nice comments about the Camaro.

I need to renew my stuff with IHRA to recieve their new rule book. Are the injected cars and carbureted cars still separated at IHRA events?

Thanks.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Bruce,

Yes, stock(which includes CM),FI, Stock truck(like my dakota),stock Gt and pure stock for those who want to play for the least dough....some drive it to the track....but you do have to have the original cam, heater box, no lightweight brakes, have to run mufflers if you run headers, smaller tires..etc.

Here is the link to the rulebook.

http://www.ihra.com/competition/index.php#rulebook

Eric

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Eric,
Thank you for the information and link.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Good luck with your new ride. If you have it ready in time you would likely enjoy the D-1 proam and Sportsman National at Richmond at the end of May likely pretty close to you.

Eric

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

In pure stock cams that check on OEM duration, over lap, and lift like the pre 1985 stocker cams are legal (if they have someone who knows how to check one...lol). Valve spring pressures must be OEM also (if they have a spring checker).

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

The T-bolt is in the classification guide as legal for Stock eliminator. It is listed with a factor of 7.63 which makes it a natural AA car; ironically the CJ factor is 7.62. I have never seen one in Stock, but they certainly are legal for Stock eliminator.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1
Bridgeport, Ct

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Bill,
I'm sure the CJ's are allowed in Stock but are they running in injected calsses?

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Bruce.....The FI classes only go up to 8.0 lbs per HP. I would imagine the new Mustangs will be restricted to A/FI at that weight break (8.0) until such time IHRA combines the carb and FI cars together in the future?. Thus you wont have to run the new Mustangs heads up unless the "powers that be" decide to allow them to run in AA for some strange reason? The carb class goes up to 7.00. for AA (a 1 lb class) instead of 7.5 like NHRA. Then 8.0 for A on down like NHRA. That was one of the initial reasons (Higher HP cars) to allow 10 inch tires and the fact that years ago the divisional tracks lacked good prep.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Bruce, I don't know too much about the modern style, centrifugal superchargers (if that's what these cars have). When NHRA still had Carb and FI classes, some turbocharged cars ran regular Stock, some ran FI, depending on what went with the turbo. Bob Shaw's 140 cid turbo Capri ran V/SA, Mark Walton's 140 turbo Mustang ran I/FI. I must have missed, if it was posted, what the engine specs were with the new Mustangs in regards to induction (besides the blower).

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

What the hell makes the difference, it's all just bracket racing with the correct carb(throttle body). The genie flew out of the bottle a long time ago.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Tony

You gonna build one of these cars!!!

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Tell that to the "DIE HARDS" and thier ego's.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Is it still bracket racing when you're running the same class as that blown rocket and you see him in the other lane (HEADS-UP-NO HANDICAP???)

I don't THEEEEENK SO....

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Guys,
Thanks for the info.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Change class/dial up, dial down/two step your brake pedal/ acid port your heads/ceramic lifters/billet rods/ cal trac's/ pro trans/ wheelie bars/ yep, I'm sure that these ferd's and moper's will ruin the class!

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Tony,
Are you running pure Stock this year?

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Whats that? Can I run it with my 64?? Is that a new nmca class?
I'll be content to watch and take my old dog out a few times. I will also watch with interest as Terry and Alex move forward with their program. I am encouraged by the renewed interest in drag racing by the American Auto Co's as they sit on their death beds.
On a serious note, I don't see how these cars are any more of a stretch than the crop of GT cars we've seen in the last few years.
I should probably keep my big mouth shut, as I don't have a dog in this fight. Just get out there and do the best you can with what you have and have fun.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Bruce, really I'm watching the Top fuel fields and thinking I might enter the ol pig in top fuel when they get a short field. Think about it, free entry, I can have my family reunion on the starting line every time I make a pass, TV coverage, blow my junk up three times, get my butt kicked in the first round and pick up a check on the way out!!!

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

That looks really cool.....

I want one of those!!!!!

:p
Jacob

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Tony D. I'm not sure if the 'Big 3' are on their death beds or not, but at least two of them have a lot of tubes running into all their ports and orifices in the 'ICU'*.

If cars like your's made up the TF field, I'd start watching the broadcasts again!


*inexhaustible cash umbilical

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

You guys are getting close....lol....The CJ already has a roots style blower on it and is injected, put nitro in the tank and put Force behind the wheel......half of the issues resolved.....(but you would never shut him up)

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Excuse me but the 1964 and 1965 Hemi cars were built with complete street equipment and could and were street driven, the 1964 427 fairlanes were the same. The 1968 Hemi cars were NOT streetable and thus went into SS, not Stock.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Treesavoy said, "1964 and 1965 Hemi cars were built with complete street equipment and could and were street driven, the 1964 427 fairlanes were the same. "

That may well be true, but pehaps for power-to-weight factors, I don't think any of those cars mentioned ever were classified as Stock Eliminator cars.

They were always Super Stockers.

If I'm wrong about that please cite some examples.

Now, somebody has convinced NHRA to allow Thunderbolts into Stock Eliminator, an anomaly, in my opinion. If they're going to allow them, then what's next; swiss-cheese Catalinas and 421 SD '63 Tempests, along with the '64-up, lightweight Dodges and Plymouths with the cross-ram 426 competition hemis?

I'll admit, that would give the new CJ's something gnarly to chew on.... LOL!

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

IHRA allows them at thier AA/S and AA/SA 7.00 lbs per HP weight break except for the swiss cheese Cats and the 421 Tempests (NOT ENOUGH PRODUCED). Dan Davorak was putting a 64 X ram Hemi together before he had his medical problems a while back.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

DVORAK has finished that car before that and is now updating it for todays standards, I have seen pictures and it is real sharp !

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Bob....Did he ever sell his red 63 Max Wedge ?

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Not that I am aware of, he said why run the wedge in AA when he could run the hemi ! The 63 is worth big money with the Alum nose.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

1962-1964 Dodge / Plymouth Max-Wedge cars:
Factory built race cars
No warranty
Immediately in Stock Eliminator class.

Can't believe I didn't bring that up a month ago...

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

I'm not taking sides, just being objective. But you could drive the Max Wedge cars off of the showroom floor and on the street, legally. The '68 Hemi Cudas and Darts are the closest thing I can think of to the current Challengers. But, of course, those ended up in SS only.

I think that the push for Stock may have been influenced by the fact that they could be finished faster and at a lesser expense than SS. More exposure and sooner, especially with the Ford "threat".

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Exactly, Interesting, 68 glass front cuda with scoop, running with a 440 (GT/CA) or even a 383. I don't remember them coming home this way. What has Super Stock become? Nothing more than bracket racing!!!!!! This is why the SS/AH class has such a following!!!

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Its a 383 in the SSGT/CA. The SS/AH heads up deal has become a millionairs club bastard class with the lack of tech. The engines in some (not all before someone jumps on me) of those cars are more exotic than the pro stock engines of the Hemi Pro Stock era. The decks are cut .400 to .500 to use a lighter shorter piston. The lifter boss angles are sleved and moved along with the rocker shafts mounting for better geometry. Large diameter cams. Some with roller bearings. I still say that at least one or two run a titanium crank. OK....you can flame me but I know better about whats going on. By the way the guys with the GT/CA car are NOT the cars Im talking about.

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

Not exclusive to SS/AH ...more the standard in most record setting SS engines..

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

I agree on the engines but I still show up at Indy for Thursday and Friday only!! :cool:

Re: Spy shots - Don Garlits Challenger
 

If you look very close to the Challenger you cannot drive it the way it is from the factory unlike the max wedge/hemi cars. the challenger does not have a rear end or rear brakes, it only has a cradle for an independent rear suspention from a mercedes E class without the center section and drive shafts so it can roll. I did not see a wiring harness. It had an interior with Viper seats ,dash ,gauges and even power windows and comes with 4 steel wheels and SNOW tires. It has mark williams front brakes and a transmission ( not drivable ) just so the engine can sit in place. Al you had to do with the old Hemi/Wedge cars is to put slicks and race. By the way I think the Cobra Jet was a much better deal. It's a ready race car...Luke