Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Bob Shaw is bad to the bone. And a gentleman.

As a part owner of an ex-Bob Shaw race car that has been torn down several times, it is fun to see so much controversy about a racer who does so much with OEM parts.

Isn't that what stock - at it's purest level - is all about?

I wonder how much fun Bob Shaw might have if NHRA had a Pure Stock class?

Bob Shaw won't win the NHRA Lucas Oil World Championship this year. Somebody else will. And they will deserve to win it.

But there will only be one world champion, and for class racing to prosper, we need a lot of Bob Shaws - and a lot of guys who want to be the World Champion.

I respect them all.

Kyle Fickler

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Yeah!!!! What Kyle said! Jim

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

I agree with what Jim said about Kyle! And that El Camino that kyle is talking about is way cool!

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Two Seconds Under!

Where are all the racers who complained about the CJ? Where is all the talk of GM screwing NHRA Stock racers? Where is the talk of how NHRA is screwing hard working Stock racers? Come on guys, chime in. You bashed NHRA, Ford and the CJ, now what is your take on this car?

The answer is : You are nowhere to be found because this car doesn't affect you! So you won't hear any chatter about how soft this combo is from the CJ bashers. I don't mean to bring any negativity to Bob Shaw, as he clearly plays by the rules, but it is funny how much talk there was about a car even before it ran and how little talk there is about a slower-class Stocker that runs further under than any Stocker I have seen.

Evan

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Gezzzz.........they bashed me for bringing up the subject of this car and the AHFS.

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

That 2.12 under beats my 2.04 under From years ago. I Should have leaned it out a bit more.
Now I've got to run 12.17 with my N/A setup!!!! I think my work ain't going to be easy.
This is my form of "bitchin"

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Why to go Bob. Like Sarah always says "GO FAST" . Ron EF/S .

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Evan;
Bob's car is one car,the CJ's are a fleet in the making.Bob will move on to another killer combo,but the CJ's are here to stay.It's true the CJ's can't go 2.00 under but they out pace the current AA cars by quite
a bit.And as you know the Caddie is a T car like mine.When he obliterated the T record I set in 06 I was one of the first to congratulate him.Record and fast wise Bob is a baddddd man.

Ed

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Evan Smith said: "You are nowhere to be found because this car doesn't affect you! So you won't hear any chatter about how soft this combo is from the CJ bashers. I don't mean to bring any negativity to Bob Shaw, as he clearly plays by the rules, but it is funny how much talk there was about a car even before it ran and how little talk there is about a slower-class Stocker that runs further under than any Stocker I have seen. "

I think that is definitely a part of the reason for the dearth of posts about the car in question, but the other part, that you didn't mention was this: The feeling among the people who did post about the Mustangs, is that NHRA "bought" (went along with, not "purchased") the 425HP factor that was suggested to them as a favor to Ford Motor Company, so that these cars could enjoy a strategic advantage over the competition, at least until somebody defied (or, ignored) the AHFS and pulled a "Henson" and got the factor up to where it belongs. The smell from those circumstances offended the racers running that class, and their fans, so they made their feelings public.

The difference between that scenario and the T/SA debacle is this: Nobody envisions Cadillac Motor Car Company imploring the NHRA HP Factoring Comittee to bless the 350 Olds motor used in the Seville (with EFI) with an unreasonably low number. NHRA did that little bit of genius all by themselves... There was no aura of "conspiracy" surrounding the unrealistically low factor assigned to the Caddy; Mr. Shaw just happened to discover it and take advantage of it, and he didn't build 50 race-ready cars to exploit it.

The combination of those facts, and the relatively low number of participants of T/SA, combined to keep comments about the bizarre nature of this situation to a minimum.

It's apples and oranges, really, even though the ridiculous joke it made of the T/SA index is surely worth of discussion. I'll bet NHRA's Tech department is glad Bob Shaw doesn't have a twin brother doing the same thing... LOL!

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

The funniest aspect of this entire subject is Bob Shaw has been thrashing obscure combinations for over forty years. Forget about the people who think he "just started racing"; how much longer before he earns a bit of a well-deserved respect from the rest of the sport?

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

If someone doesn't respect this man, and what he has done, it's obvious they just don't understand Stock Eliminator racing at all!!! LOL!

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Bret, Bob has ALWAYS had my respect!

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

I've had the opportunity to chat with Bob numerous times & HIGHLY repsect the man. Sharp as a tack and a great (dry) sense of humor. I'll guarantee that if he hasn't seen this thread yet, he will, and he'll get a good chuckle out of it when he does.

Like Bret said, when you think about the cars that he's assembled over the years and the numbers that they've run, you HAVE to admire the man.

Guess everyone should be glad he's not running Fords CJ show, or all of us would be in trouble.......

See you in Houston,

Unk

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Ed and Dedman,

I am in complete agreement with both of you, and long before I posted, trust me I understood the difference between the circumstances and the effect, as a whole, on Stock Eliminator. My point is that if any combination can run that far under, which I will remind you that the CJ's have yet to do, then where are all those who bashed the CJ based on the sole fact that is it underrated? I know it is not GM or Cadillac's intent to own Stock. But the facts are the facts and this is a combo that is way out of whack. I personally could care less, but if people are going to get on here and act like they care about Stock Eliminator then they should be screaming about this. Again, no offense to Bob and however much work he puts into his cars. We all know he is a smart and talented racer.

My post has nothing to do with Bob Shaw and everything to do with the fact that many of you got on here and told stories of how Stock was going to be ruined by the CJ. For what it is worth, Hensen ruined the Hemi, someone ruined the 440-6 B-body package in two weekends—it happens. Ultimately it will happen to t he CJ cars. I don't care if it one car that is out of line. Principals are principals and many of you are proving that you will pick and choose your battles based on what suits you.



Evan

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Evan;
I'm a retiree living on a pension.(Hymie Roth in The Godfather Part 2).

Ed

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Evan,
Principals belong in high schools; principles are the sticking points that we get on here and blather about, having nothing better to do (I'm a retiree, too.) LOL!

In reference to the Bob Shaw Caddy motor's factor, you said, "this is a combo that is way out of whack." I can't imagine ANYBODY disagreeing with that!

The principle involved is, "WHY is it out of whack?"

Unlike the "out of whack" 2008 CJ Mustang horsepower factor, since Cadillac (as you said) obviously doesn't want to "own" Stock Eliminator, the reason for that absurd Cadillac factor is the grievous ignorance of the person or persons in charge of assigning numbers to any and all combinations, even the strange and very strange ones, like this (a Cadillac, utilizing an Oldsmobile engine, with an induction system that never came on an Oldsmobile.) Not easy, perhaps, to assign an accurate factor to such a weirdo assortment of parts, but I don't think the "mistake" (ultra-low factor) was deliberate; more like born of ignorance. I'd bet that my assumption would be agreed with by a lot of folks on this BB.

The CJ factor didn't come about though ignorance at all; it was an engineered piece of statistical gamesmanship, and NHRA was obviously, a willing player in the exercise.

THAT is the reason people are not all over Bob Shaw's erroneous factor, while jumping on the Mustangs with both feet. When you look at the origins of the numbrs in question, they are obviously apples/oranges.

Collusion between a giant auto manufacturer and the NHRA, whether real or imagined, is just fodder for the grist mill that is this (and other) forums. Maybe it's just somebody's pipe dream, but if it walks like duck.... you know the rest!

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Evan’s argument is interesting, primarily because it brings up an interesting dichotomy in class racing.

Bob’s 32-year-old combination sat ignored in the classification guide by apparently all but Bob for quite some time. And while ex-Bob Shaw #1 qualifiers would make for an entertaining 3 round eliminator, the impressive performances do not spawn similar entries. For good reason, nobody accuses Bob of cheating, and most, if not all of the people that compete against Bob offer congratulations and wonder what the next few combinations might be. The reality is that we all have access to the classification guide, but a few courageous souls study the pages most of us don’t read, and study them with a lot of imagination.

In many respects, rather than perfect a particular combination, Bob has found a couple classes in which to introduce a better combination - repeatedly. Are some of the combos classified improperly? The answer is yes, but we don’t know that until racers like Bob show us.

Yeah, the Cadillac is fast, but so was the Capri, the Caprice, the Cruck, and everything else Bob brought to the starting line.

Kinda cool in my opinion.

Kyle Fickler

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Dedman,

You are correct on all accounts, but the end result is still the same, which is that racers like Ed F., who have worked hard for years will get whipped up on and no one seems to care. Whether Ed cares or not and congratulates Bob Shaw for his efforts doesn't make it right. I'm done beating this dead horse, I simply wanted to make a point and I think I've done that. There will always be combinations that are better than others. If a racer's sole purpose it to win Class than find an empty class, work harder, or build the best combination for that class.

Evan

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Another Red herring. One lonely old Caddy without an OEM backer will never have the impact of the new CJ's and Mopars. Not even close to a legitimate comparison.

The worst part about this whole mess is that nhra has made some serious changes to Stock and Super Stock without saying one word. There is no leadership coming from Glendora. They had the good sense to separate the injected cars years ago, until they were properly vetted, but now they have thrown what little conscious they had out the window.

Evan,
It has been very interesting to watch you public comments about the new Cj's evolve since the Factory Experimental thread. In the FX thread you posted comments about cautioning the Ford guys. You told them not to run fast right off the bat because it would look bad and cause resentment. I believe the word you used was not to run a ringer. Then in a later thread you became very comfortable with the new CJ's in Stock. Of course, that is after they had gained entry into Stock by running at Pomona. And now you are out here at every oportunity to defend them and to put up any little piece of evidence to support your argument. Comparing one old Caddy to what the OEM's are doing is not going to convince any of us. IHRA has it right and and nhra has it wrong. OEM's have all the clout with nhra and all we have is our devalued race cars. It's easy right now, for the new car guys, but let's see how this story plays out.

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

What will you do when/if NHRA, IHRA, or Alex's Class Nationals deal combines stick and automatic and/or goes to full pound breaks in combination to cut down on the number of classes ? Theres not a R or T class car in the country that can run the Caddy's times. Just a thought. To get any class win money back some classes will have to go away or be combined. Some how cut down on the number of seperate classes. Everyone who enters cannot be a class winner. The "Cream" has to rise to the top. My 3 1/2 cents worth.
P.S. In response to Bruce Nolands thread by having so many seperate classes like IHRA has right now just turns the eliminator into a bracket race. How many heads up runs are documented during IHRA events ? Not many ! Remember, the fans need to see a better show to justify the sportsman races. Another nickles worth.

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

X TECH MAN,

Did you just advocate bringing back the FX classes on another thread? Heads up are very cool but these new cars need to be properly/honestly classified. That's more important than heads-up racing.

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

OK, I've put on my Impact! fire retardent underwear so here I go. Bruce, are you listening? The AHFS (in my humble opinion), although it has many flaws, has one BIG flaw that needs to be fixed as soon as somebody in Glendora wakes up. A trigger needs to be in place to fix "Factoring Mistakes" more quickly. I would like to see the -1.40 number used not to give a 3.25% bump to a combo but to "slap" it back to reality. I hate to be aiming this in Bobs direction but when a combo has the rest of the field covered by that much something has to be in place to let NHRA make a drastic HP change.
For some reason, NHRA has never been able to get a handle on factoring combos dating all of the way back to the early 70s when the manufacturers started using "net" HP ratings. From the early 70s through (my guess) the release of the LT-1 in 93 NHRA would assign a HP number to a combo based on a "comparison" to an existing combo (X-Tech Man, elaborate?). When the LT-1 was released, the factor became 275 which is what the factory rating was. The rating after 18 years now stands at 325? and it's still a good combo (Bobby Warren #1 @ Gators). By the time the Caddy was put in the guide (no it hasn't been there for 30 years) NHRAs policy had become one of accepting whatever the factory rating is. If you compare Bobs 77 350 Caddy/Olds to a 77 350 Olds, you'll find that the Olds was immediatly factored from 170 to over 250 (it has been defactored to 250) based on earlier Olds combos.
This is getting too long and rambling, to close I would just like to see the -1.40 trigger used to give under factored combos a "slap" instead of a "bump".
Please Bob, don't take this personally as it's not meant to be.

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Billy - For once you and I agree -- combo's like the Seville need more than a bump but who is to say what is the right amount ? It's very hard to just pick out a number and assign it without making junk out of that combo -- have you a fair way ?

PS -- FYI -- all LT1's (in Stock) with an automatic transmission are factored at 341 horsepower not 325 as stated .

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Well Jack, the old way of just "handing you 10" in the staging lanes wasn't fair but 3.25% at a time will in some cases take forever. Again I have to use Bob as a "whipping post" to make my point but his combo won't even make the top of U/SA until it is factored to 209 HP (it's now at 186). That looks like 4 more -1.40 hits until it makes the top of the class! It has to be hit to 220 HP to push it out of U. No Jack I don't know what the answer is to keep it fair but I'm going to have to say that something in the middle? Sorry I don't know it all, if I did I'd be you!

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Billy,
I agree!

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Billy - once again I agree but there are no rules in place to hit a Horsepower factor that hard .On top of that if you got that car out of "U" and into "T" it would still be very fast for that class and we would have the Eddie Fernandezs' out there complaining about him in their class .
Not to take anything away from Bob Shaw but his driving at Belle Rose was not terrific and he would soon rack up those four hits you were speaking of this problem would take care of itself .The same goes for the new CobraJets -- not all are factory drivers and they will want to flex their muscles -- then the AHFS will work like it should .Its' human nature -- if 'ya got it...flaunt it ! ! !

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

So Jack, what you're telling me is that it's OK with you to put new combos in the guide at an unreasonably low factor and wait oh, 10-15 years or so to maybe sort them out? I'm far and away NOT a good business man but that just doesn't seem to be the correct way to be treating your (NHRA's) customers. Oh that's right! we're not customers we're Participents!

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Billy -- No , I'm not telling you to wait 15 years but untill you or someone comes up with a fair system of factoring we have to utilize what we do have .Its very easy to use strong words but solving the problem is the issue here -- you can't just assign horsepowers willy-nilly -- have you forgotten what it was like during the "Farmer" days ? That was not fun ! ! ! And yes , we are customers -- in their ballpark ...............

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Well Jack what would YOU propose? Bruce? Kenny? Evan?Anybody? Let's hear it! Maybe this should be a new thread?

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Jack;
In case you weren't aware of it Bob's car runs T frequently and has since he's had it.I've never complained
about it,or John Ruth or Capt. Jack or any other T car.My car is as fast as it will ever be on my minuscule budget.One thing I'm proud of was a PM from someone congratulating me on how fast my 6 cylinder runs
in a class dominated by V-8s.And you know it is all Tom G.who makes it possible.
And of course Billy is on the right track.

Ed

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Billy,

I know this is long, but you asked. No one liked the old system (human input) because people stated that favorites were played, and no one seems to like the current system (alleged automatic system) because it doesn't work as effectively as it should. My opinion is that it should be a combination of both, as this is the only way to make the minute and major changes in a reasonable amount of time. And no one wants to hear this, but EVERY run needs to count so NHRA can gather real data, not sandbagging data from national events. Most of us run far more opens and points races so that is where the data should come from. Many racers only run two, maybe three, nationals a year, if any, so it becomes easy to hold back. If all the runs counted then you could only hold back so much and the AHFS would be working it's magic every race weekend.

I have had numerous conversations with NHRA officials about hp factoring. For instance I argued that the 440-6 should carry the same hp factor for the Cuda/Challenger as is does for the B-body. It is the exact same engine in both, but the B-body carries 417, I believe the Cuda/Challenger is 406 or 407. If Bruce's 350 (leaf-spring Camaro) and a Corvette are counted together with totally dissimilar engine setback and suspension, how could they not count the Cuda/Challenger and the B-body with similar engine/trans layout? All I got when I laid this logic on them is "that hp change was done before the new system was in place so we can't do anything about it." Come on, it is their sand box, they can do whatever they want. The idea is to keep racing fair and both of those combos should race with the same HP, whether it is 407 or 417. I'm beginning to think no one at NHRA wants to solve the real problems we are facing.

I'm not here to bash NHRA, but the fact remains that it wouldn't take a big effort to improve things. I tried like hell to work on the triggers and got nowhere. I tried to allow us to have more than 100 lbs removable weight and got nowhere. If you can move three classes, who cares if the weight is welded in or bolted in properly? The problem is we need someone in NHRA to be in COMMAND of the Stock/Super Stock rules and hp factoring. All it takes is NHRA to assign this position to an intelligent soul who understands our cars and what it is like to tow to a race, to spend money and race these classes. Then this person can work with the SRAC members to make simple but effective decisions. But sadly, I just don't see this happening.

Evan

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Evan, I can appreciate all that you have tried to do in regards to the AHFS. I also agree that all runs should count and that all HP factors should be based on the engine combo and not body specific.I do not agree that we need a "human touch" for the simple fact that it will be just a matter of time before Racer X gets factored for disagreeing with Tech Inspector Y. I've been around long enough to remember things like that. I also think that we need to include the altitude factored tracks in the equation or if NHRA doesn't have enough faith in its factors then do away with them completely.

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Good people were in place, NHRA did not hear what they were being told or chose not to listen. There was no one better then Wesley but when your hands a tied and then cut off what can you say. Tech needs an overhaul, from the top down. Just look back to Farmer now look to now, somewhere in there lays the answer, take all your best tech's and tie their hands and you get a pile of you know what.

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Bob,

What you said (all of it!)

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!





Bill

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Evan said: "If Bruce's 350 (leaf-spring Camaro) and a Corvette are counted together with totally dissimilar engine setback and suspension, how could they not count the Cuda/Challenger and the B-body with similar engine/trans layout?"

This is probably what happens when someone comes on here and calls the guy in charge of the AHFS, "The Boobster" . Who says there's no human element involved in the AHFS?

It does take some human element to get similar body styles at the same rating.
My Olds Omega (350 Buick) combo got lumped in with Bert Morgan's 4400 lbs Regal wagon hp hit
It took me 6 mos. to get it straightened out ,with help from Len.
Meanwhile, the 72 Chevy 350 /4bbl had 5 different ratings on the same motor.
It's got to be all body styles, ....or individual combos that get hit. Not in between .
That'll take someone who knows what he's doing.

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

I don't know whose idea it was to muddy the water by assigning a dffierent horsepower rating to an engine, depending on what chassis it's in, but that ranks right up there with... with... well, I am at a total loss for words to compare this idea with anything else, because I've never seen anything so ill-advised in my 54 years of scrutinizing NHRA rules.

Sure, a given SBC in a Corvette, which presents less frontal area, more efficient aerodynamics, and has better weight distribution because of engine setback, may perform better than that same engine in a Chevelle hardtop, but the fact is, the combinations are endless, and trying to level the playing field between the myriad combinations using this method is a task that would never be finished, and in the meantime creates more problems than it solves.

The smartest thing they could do is dump this piece of genius and simplify, as best they can, a very difficult task, to the extent that they can. Car classification is hard enough when it's accomplished in the most basic way possible. Adding a totally impertinent set of parameters to an already complicated process is just an unnecessary complication that in the scheme of things, doesn't actually improve the classification procedure in any way, shape, or form.

All it does is increase the complexity of an already complicated situation.

The guy who thought this would work, and got NHRA to use it, deserves the DARWIN AWARD for all time, along with the ones who "bought it."

Just my 2-cents...


Bill (a not-very-complex guy)

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Dedman,

I think you may have misunderstood me. NHRA does indeed have some fine people who are skilled and very good at what they do. However, there are so many layers at NHRA and we found it very difficult anything past all the layers. Many of the rules and regulations were made long before many of the performance and safety enhancements and the rulebook has not changed with the times.

Evan

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Sure, a given SBC in a Corvette, which presents less frontal area, more efficient aerodynamics, and has better weight distribution because of engine setback, may perform better than that same engine in a Chevelle hardtop....... but the fact is, the combinations are endless, and trying to level the playing field between the myriad combinations using this method is a task that would never be finished, and in the meantime creates more problems than it solves.






Bill, Seems you are arguing for, and against ,in the same paragraph

Fact is, there are big differences in the index vs. weight, between the the middle classes and the lower ones. Powerglide vs 4 speed etc.
NHRA has gotten better about doing this since the early days of the AHFS ( The Billy Lynn rule...factoring 2 dr 79 Malibu's and not the 2 dr Olds Cutlass and Pontiac Le Mans, which essentially is the same car)
Now atleast they combine the 305 Camaros with the Firebirds and vice versa, as they should be.
It hast to be done correctly by someone who knows what he's looking at . You can't just all of a sudden combine 350 Novas with Camaros because a guy speaks out against NHRA.
Nothing wrong with factoring individual combos , if done correctly.

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

Mark,
I apologize for the murky writing; I can see (upon re-reading) that my post did indeed, seem to be beating both drums simultaneously, but what I MEANT was contained in the part that said, "but the fact is, the combinations are endless, and trying to level the playing field between the myriad combinations using this method is a task that would never be finished, and in the meantime creates more problems than it solves."

That was the crux of my argument.

To think that the present-day NHRA will beat the bushes to find a knowledgeable individual (or, several) who can perform this task of separating cars' classification by examining their performace potential through a "microscope," is to dream the impossible dream.

In case you haven't noticed, whoever is in CHARGE there doesn't CARE... and, they proved it first with the Mustang factoring debacle, and now have added insult to injury with the Dodge factors.

My point was, if it can't be done "right" (and, I don't think it can, given what we have to work with in terms of NHRA's attitude, demeanor, and analytical capabilities, such as they are) then, it shouldn't be done AT ALL.

Return the factors on cars of varying body types to their original, across-the-board numbers and forget the situations like Fred Henson's mistake... or, move ALL the Street Hemis, regardless of chassis, onto that 470hp pedastal...

What they have now makes NO sense at all...

Thanks for listening.

Bill

Re: Bob Shaw is a bad man
 

The guys who were in charge of all of that are no longer in charge of any of it.

There are obvious reasons engines may be factored differently in different cars. Easy example, one we run personally, the 427/425 Chevy. In a Camaro, you get cold air (you'll get various opinions as to whether or not it works), in a Chevelle or an Impala, you do not. The same applies to the 396 engines for that year. But it is not just the cold air, but also wheelbase and suspension differences, as well as aerodynamics.

Evan is correct, the SRAC made suggestions, many of them solicited from the racers and forwarded to NHRA by the SRAC on behalf of the racers. All that was gotten for the trouble and effort was that the AHFS was removed from people who know Stock and Super Stock, and passed out to Glendora. A bad problem will now become much worse. And NHRA will never say who is responsible or where they are, either.

As far as the original subject of this thread, I've never met the man, that I am aware of, but I see no reason to do anything but say he's a smart man. It is a failing of NHRA that such a soft factor exists to begin with, and that nothing has been done about it. There will be smart people who find such combinations and make them run. It is the job of NHRA to make sure that it gets fixed in a timely manner.