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Why not insert a blue bulb, in between the last yellow, and the green. About 1-3 seconds or so, after the second car has left, and one or both foul, let the computer turn on the appropriate green or red bulbs, and declare the winner! That way neither driver, will be distracted, but yet be able to tell if one red lighted by glancing at the score boards down track.
Eddie Rezac |
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Eddie Rezak said, "Why not insert a blue bulb, in between the last yellow, and the green? About 1-3 seconds or so, after the second car has left, and one or both foul, let the computer turn on the appropriate green or red bulbs, and declare the winner! "
The winner will already have been declared instantly, AFTER the second car to leave, launches: a big, red, light will be glowing in one lane of the other, but not until after the second car to leave has left the line. That is, assuming one, or both of the cars went "red." I don't see the advantage in complicating this beyond that. It will operate just as it always has, except the worse red light will determine the winner and it will not come on until both cars have left the line. Assuming a situation wherein BOTH cars red light, no red light would show until AFTER both cars have left rhe line... so there are NO DISTRACTIONS FOR EITHER DRIVER... Once they've had their red lights compared by the computer (takes only a a microsecond) the red will then come on in whichever lane had the worse infraction and the win light willl show on the opposite scoreboard. I can't see how adding another, different-colored (blue?) light would improve this very simple situation. Bill |
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All this seems to be how NHRA does it, does IHRA have a better system or are they the same?
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But this is NOT "how NHRA does it."
NHRA does it just like they did in 1963; in a handicapped race, if you leave first and red light, the race is over; the second car never has a chance to red light. This "double red light" system would give BOTH cars an eqqual chance to red light and award the win to the driver with the least infraction, like they have done double breakouts, for years Neither red light would come on until AFTER both cars had left the line, so as to not distract the second car to leave the line. It would be computer-activated and immediate. It's just a way to give both cars an equal shot at the tree, even if the first car leaves before the green. The second car might leave even sooner before the green, but with the system we've had for the last 46 years, the second car to leave has enjoyed the "gift" of a win light no matter WHAT "his": light might have been, because the system already made the first car to leave the loser, when HE left too soon. This situation happens very seldom, and no one would be aware of any change unless the second car to leave red lit worse than the first, on a double red light situation. No changes of any kind would be necessary in the driving protocol for either driver. Some day, they'll get around to making this change, but since it doesn't make NHRA any MONEY, it may NEVER happen... lol! |
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WHEN you raced,did you leave first or last usually.By the way you are attacking this issue it seems you were the slower car and lit the red bulb more than a few times.Why do you insist on stirring the pot when you are out of the loop?Sitting in the stands who redlights has no bearing on you what so ever,unless your friends all have first leavers.What's the story? Also usually it's only an issue when the dials are close.Usually say a P car fouls to an A car if you look at the numbers the A car has a terrible light because he saw the red light. |
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Hey, Bill what if the driver with the least infraction is driving a 2008 Cobra Jet Mustang in stock eliminator?
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Simple; least infraction wins, as long as he's in a class=legal car.
Why wouldn't he? |
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In other words..First or worst...just like everything else in drag racing. Jeez, this isn't that hard. This might even benefit an A/Stock CJ ,against a Double A car. |
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QUOTE=Ed Fernandez;
"WHEN you raced,did you leave first or last usually?" My car was a 15-pound per HP car (H/SA then, M/SA), so I'd say it was pretty much 50/50 at that time. >>>"By the way you are attacking this issue it seems you were the slower car and lit the red bulb more than a few times.Why do you insist on stirring the pot when you are out of the loop?Sitting in the stands who redlights has no bearing on you what so ever,unless your friends all have first leavers.What's the story?" The real story is, I didn't even drive my race car usually, because when I raced Stock Eliminator, they didn't weigh the driver... just the car. I weighed 220 pounds; I had a friend who was a decent driver who weighed 120 pounds... as you know, that's a solid tenth.. a car-length. My car wasn't fast enough to be giving away performance a car-length at a time, so I had him drive most of the time. Red lights were never a factor in my getting beat; a lack of horsepower WAS. lol! As a rabid, wild-eyed fanatic of Stock Eliminator since 1955, I have been delighted by NHRA's modus operandi over the years to make things as fair as they reasonably could. Look at the multitude of ways NHRA has bent over backward to level the playing field for these cars WHEN THEY COULD.... to the extent of bouncing cars for valves that were a few thousandths of an inch too SMALL, to measuring breakouts in thousandths of a second... to weighing the components of the reciprocating assembly against a predetermined weight/value that cannot be manipulated. All that monumental, and near-comprehensive effort, and then, this.... a simple-to-fix, one-sided rule that came into being in 1963, when there was no other way to operate, but has since, acquired an easy way to fix what's wrong with it, in the interest of continuing NHRA's philosophy of making racing as fair as they reasonably can. I have no dog in this hunt, true; I'm just a Bracket racer for reasons financial, but that doesn't mean that my lifelong passion has no interest in seeing the kind of racing I so dearly love, being changed for the better (more fair), since the "fix" is cheap, easy, and won't affect ANYBODY'S driving style. I can't think of a single reason not to fix it. It's not a "slow car vs. fast car" thing at all.... This crap happens every time an A car runs a B car... EVERY TIME there's a race, unless it's heads-up, the second car to leave the line gets the advantage of MAYBE getting a free ride to the next round, if the first car red lights. He needs his chance to red light, too; even if the first car leaves too soon, just like in a double breakout. There seems to me to be no reason, in 2009, to be doing the same cockeyed way of running things that they did in 1963, when they were doing it because they HAD to. We no longer have to... It just seems stupid to me. But, that's just my German ancestry dictating my "logic circuits," I guess... >>>"Also usually it's only an issue when the dials are close.Usually say a P car fouls to an A car if you look at the numbers the A car has a terrible light because he saw the red light Well, with this system HE WON'T BE SEEING ANY RED LIGHTS because no red light will come on until AFTER both cars have left the line. That is the THIRD time I have explained that in this thread, but nobody seems to "get it." I don't know if they just scan the highlights, don't pay any attention to what I write, because I am just some redneck goofball to them, with crazy, wild ideas, unworthy of consideration or that this double red light system is so foreign to what they're used to that it doesen't "register," but rest assured NOBODY will see a red light before BOTH cars have left the line. To do it any other way would be patently UNFAIR to the second car to leave. Double red lights are, and will always be, a seldom seen phenomenon. This rule wouldn't come into effect very often at all, and it is likely that nobody would even be aware that it was in place, unless there were a double red light. If it never gets implemented, the world will still revolve the same way, and lots of other inequites will continue to exist in our drag racing world. This just seems like one that is an easy fix, and needs to be done in the sake of fairness to every first car to leave the line in any kind of handicap racing. Beyond that, have a nice day!!! And, I mean that! :) Bill |
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I hoped someone with computer savvy would post a vote on what current racers think of this rule. Have a nice too Bill,one oldie to another. Ed |
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Ed said: "Bill,maybe I'm crazy but I see no reason to make things anymore complicated than they already are."
I agree; they're plenty complicated, now. Having said that I must ask, in what way would this complicate ANYTHING insofar as what the driving experience is? What would you do differently? What would a AA car do differently??? Tell me; I may be missing something here... If racing, using this system is going to be more complicated, I'd like to know what about it complicates ANYTHING?????? I'm serious. Explain the "complication" to me, please. Thanks for hanging in there and reading all that crap I wrote.... but, if you think that racing under this system is going to be ONE IOTA more complicated than what we have now, then ~I~ don't understand it, myself.... 'cause I sure can't see it. What it be????????? :) Bill |
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Gary,
Don't get your hopes up; this change would never, ever, net NHRA one red cent, and it would cost money for the changeover software, so I think it chances of its ever seeing the light of day are slim-to-none. I've tried to get the racers on this board to support this idea for years, and I can't even get the guys with S-L-O-W cars to agree that it's going to be beneficial, and they're the ones getting screwed the most with the current system. Most of the racers who are against this idea, I am convinced, don't understand how it works. I am sure that NHRA has no interest in making this change. It's such a simple idea; if they wanted it changed, it would have been changed years ago. But, thanks for your interest and kind words. Bill |
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here's my .02 cents worth (and i should know)
i knew the rule when i chose my class / car (28 years ago) i know i have a disadvantage on the redlight rule i used to have advantage on class winner money ( until i was enhanced) i now have another disadvantage on the line - two steps (some enhancement relief last year) however... i still have advantages i enjoy a good slick track, especially when paired with a-b-c radial car i still spend less than an a--b-c car (but still way too much... enhance enhance enhance) i never hit the wheelie bars and spin i put up wiuth less assholes...the guys who race in o- w are a much nicer breed captain i agree with billy... lose the reaction times & incrementals |
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I agree with Ed and Jack on the red light situation. It has been that way since I have been racing on the tree and I can live with it.
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Our sport has evolved, they have now Cross Talk installed into the most tracks, so why not No Red until both leave. This way the playing field evens out alot more then you think. Why do you think that all the better bracket racers want the faster cars, so that the slower car makes the first mistake. It's always easier being the faster car, you can judge the finish line easier passing someone rather then being passed. If you take out the RED on the first car then it takes out some of the advantage of the faster car. As a bracket racer and Stock racer, I would welcome the NO RED.
Just my view on the subject. Another part of this is to take out reaction times in time runs, and in eliminations just put in the difference of the reaction times so that they can be figured out by the contestants. Casey Miles 248H |
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Tony Janes said, "I can live with it."
Tony, everybody's been "living with it" (except the A cars, and now they have the same problem when running a AA car, finally), for 46 years... But we no longer would have to "live with it" if they'd fix it, which they now can do at very little expense, and in a way that affects nobody's driving style in ANY WAY. Like I said, I can't see any logical reason not to do it. RE: " I can live with it." is very considerate of you, but what have you done to deserve second-class status in this matter? Nothing I can see would make "living with it" a fair treatment for you. You deserve the same treatment that the guy in the other lane gets, regardless of class or dial-in. Right now, you don't always get it. THAT's what I'd like to see fixed. Bill |
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I think a rule change is in order, shouldn't be tough for NHRA@IHRA to implement it. How ever at bracket races I,ve had to give cars up to a 10 second spot. I'll bet alot of you have given more than that and when he leaves and you don't see your win light come on and you sit and wait it always screws with my rt. Usually red. I think my attention span is a little short.
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Ed Slug Racer |
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Ed,
I asked you to explain your comment, " Bill,maybe I'm crazy but I see no reason to make things anymore complicated than they already are." but, I didn't see an explanation as to how this new system of operation would "complicate" anything. What am I missing here? Nobody's even going to know it's in place unless somebody red lights, and then it's no more complicated than it's EVER been... somebody goes home. Did I overlook something? Bill |
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Bill, This reminds me of the deep stage issue. People were dead set against it, when they didn't even fully understand the concept.
As I said, I can live without the change, but I don't understand why anybody would be against it. That is of course , unless they had a self -centered reason, like owning a fast AA car. Haven't heard from any of them. I think we lost them several pages back,with all this slow car talk. |
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Thanks for your opinion, Mark.
What I can't understand is the reluctance of the very people who are currently victimized nearly every time they come to the line (first car to leave) to embrace a system that would give them a fair shake for the first time in their lives. Go figure.... |
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Bill
I like your idea I have lost on a double red light. Two or three times I had the better light two of the three times. I do driver a slower car. |
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Bill - This is an interesting idea. Having run a U and V car for a number of years, I would have to concur that your idea has merit. It would definitely be a pretty simple programming change to make it work. This would make both cars work the tree rather than giving the fast one a free pass if the slower one were to redlight. I will say, however, that when you are in a slow car and you cut a good light and you're dissappearing down the track before the fast guy's tree comes down, it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the fast guy to cut a good light. Sometimes it's enough pressure for them to make a mistake. When I raced, I knew it was always first or worse and I accepted that. In the Summernationals one year, I was paired with Geroge Williams' Vega wagon. I was driving in U/SA and I was not used to giving anyone a head start. When I saw George about 50 yds out before my tree fell, I panicked and red lit big time!
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Ed,
I'm sorry if I have overblown the importance of this situation up to beyond what it logically should be. Like I said, the probability is, that nothing's going to happen anyway, so it's just a tempest in a teapot, most likely. If NHRA actually effected this change, I'd probably just keel over..... LOL! I was 25 when this present (First Red Light) system was enacted (1963.) Many years later, I was made aware of the lopsided way this system treats the racers by a friend who is obviously a LOT smarter than I am, because I'd been watching it for probably at least 30 years and had never seen anything wrong with it; it was what it was. Nobody complained.... so, I thought it was fine.... I raced my sedan delivery Stocker under it and it never occcurred to me that every time I ran a quicker car, I was being deprived of my right to pressure HIM into a red light, if I'd already red lighted... I GAVE him the round.... and was never the wiser. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, obviously! But, the more I thought about it over the years, the more it seemed to need to change to give equal treatment to both cars... since they weren't GETTING equal treatment. But, the amount of inertia that exists in the scheme of things where NHRA is concerned makes Mt. Everest look like a molehill, so it just kind of struggled along for years, with no one doing anything about it. That's where we are, now. Be that as it may, I'll never get over feeling that any car that leaves first on a handicap start, whether it's a W/SA car or an A/SA car, is not getting a fair shake on the tree with the current system. Both cars need to have the SAME CHANCE to red light, regardless of what the first car does. As it stands, they don't, if the first car leaves too soon. If that isn't making the first car to leave a victim of the system, then I don't know of a better way to express it. Thanks to everyone for your comments; this is a good example of what this board is for, I think... to give EVERYONE a chance to voice his/her opinion on issues like this. You don't need to be a woman to be a good gynecologist, and you don't need to be racing to have a valid opinion about issues like this.... The racers have another board for discussing "racer-only" issues. I think ANYONE with an opinion should be welcome to discuss it here; otherwise, what's the other board for??? So, thanks for listening; I don't think I have any other information or personal opinions relative to this situation. Bill |
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No Bill,
I can't let this dog lay down without adding my extra .02. You and Casey, plus Mark get it, but I'll offer another take on it...right now, the first car to cross the finish line on a break out run doesn't automatically lose the race (and no lights are displayed), until the second car crosses the line...thus allowing the least breakout to produce the round winner, right??? So why not do for the starting line the same thing with regards to the possibility of a redlight...as you said the second car should have the same pressure applied to him/her as the first leaver does (thus to level out the playing field)...i.e. as Casey suggested, a "No Red" adjustment to the Christmas Tree, that would delay the display of the redeye until after the second car launched from the line, and the timers would then give the redlight to the worse of the two...I don't understand the difficulty in comprehending that ideal either, but I tell you what I sure can think of two recent year races that I could've possibly benefitted from a No Red First Leave display: 1. Quarterfinals at the LODRS DIV. VII #2 race at Tucson, Az. I wasted a right on the Dial in run on a redeye that was only -.013. Wes McGann would've had a chance to redlight too if he wouldn't have seen my redeye displayed while he waited just over 4.0sec's for his lights to come down after mine started to. I ran right on my dial-in too (15.940 on a 15.94 dial-in), which added more salt to the wound. If my red light wouldn't have been shown, then he would've had the same pressure I had to make his light good but quicker than the .092 that he carded in that run, and even though he broke out(11.555 on a 11.59 dial), it didn't matter, because the 46yr old first or worse rule applied. Some might say that my redlight was worse than his breakout, however if he had a chance to redlight because of the "NO RED FIRST LEAVE" display, then he could've redlighted too, and his could've been a -0.14 (or more)??? Even the "Drag Race Central" commentator said it proper by adding the caption "McGann gets an easy win as Hampton red lights"! Why should he and other faster cars get easy wins at our slower car expenses? Why do you think guys such as Peter Biondo enjoy the perks of having one of the fastest cars wherever he goes now? Because under the current format (and in most of his races), he's going to be the second person to leave the line. He didn't need it before, but he sure is enjoying the perks of it now huh...Ohh and lest I forget other racers such as Dan Fletcher who made his Camaro faster so that he now gets to be a chaser more often than a chasee, and even Lee Zane has a faster car now than the one that gave him his claim to fame! 2. I had a similar race against Brad Burton last year in the LODRS DIV. VII RACE #1, where I redbulbed by -.022. Brads light was a .023, so if your ideal Bill would've applied here, then Brad would've had a chance to redlight as well since he was only safe from doing so by .024 (and he also gave up an over 4sec head start to me), but if he'd have done so his could've been worse than mine!? I just wish my light would've been green since we don't have that rule, because my breakout was just -.025, as opposed to his -.039. Heck, the (now SS/AH) cars who used to rule Super Stock are getting a dose of their own medicine with the expansion of Super Stock to include Modified Production & Modified Stock cars (plus some of the GT classes), which are now faster than the DREADED HEMI used to be in both the SS/AA & SS/BA (plus SS/A & SS/B) classes...you sure don't see them as dominating as they used to be back in the 70's to late 80's huh??? Thanks to Drag Race Central for the stats on both races! Bill, I know I would benefit from your ideal, and I also know not to hold my breath, but isn't rather interesting how quickly numerous A/SA & A/S cars made the upgrades to AA/SA & AA/S...I wonder if this thread didn't touch on the primary reason why??? Heck, it almost reminds me of the pro classes, the people with the most money generally do most of the winning, because the rules seem to favor the have's over the have not's...the faster over the slower!!! Oh, and one more thing, Casey you hit another nail on the head by noting that the faster car has an easier judgement of the finish line over the slower car racer, because everything is in front of him/her (opponent/finish line), thus benefit number two of upgrading to AA/SA & AA/S...just my extra .02 |
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Gary,
You make some good points, but if I gave the impression that this double red light system of doing things was ever MY IDEA, then I mis-spoke. It is a good idea; I WISH I had thought of it, but I participated in and watched drag racing for at LEAST 35 years using the "old" first red light system before a guy explained the double red light system to me. He had to explain it to me three or four times before I "got it," so ingrained was the "old" system in my so-called brain. I'd LOVE to take credit for having thought this up, but... I'M NOT THAT SMART! Obviously... But, Tthanks for the kind words... :) Bill |
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We now have three things in common, we both agree with the double redlight system, our families (at least my dad's side of my family--Newport/Little Rock--& you by residence) share the same state, and we both have been involved (either as a live fan or racer) in drag racing for about the same length of time (34yrs for me). That's ok about your not wanting to take the credit for this ideal, but I hope that by your mentioning it, that the members of the Stock/Super Stock rules committee will present this thought to the powers that be in Glendora, or also to the IHRA's headquarters as well....one can only hope, however this one comes from the same person who still wishes that Glendora will do a reshuffling of the current divisional layout (much the same way that the NFL did 3-5yrs ago)? However, just like that one I'm not going to hold my breath on this one either, because like that guy and you felt, it's too logical to work!!! Have a good weekend, and whoever is fortunate enough to be racing this weekend, have fun and good luck to you all...wish I were there!!! :) |
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Gary Hampton said, "That's ok about your not wanting to take the credit for this idea."
Gary, I'd love to take credit for it, but it was never my idea.... as I said, I participated in (for awhile) and watched racing with the "first red light" system (that's now in place) for many, many years before some guy explained the one-sided nature of the system to me in a way that I could understand it. I would ~never~ have figured it out on my own.... :( It's not through a sense of humility that I deny any involvement in figuring out a fair way to fix this; it's facts. I had to have it explained to me repeatedly, before I understood what was wrong and how to fix it. Appparently, I have a very thick skull.... BTW, I don't know how old you might be, but I am 70, and went to my first race in 1955.... and, was hooked. Can't imagine my life without drag racing... Don't want to, anyway... Thanks for your interest and comments; you make a lot of sense to me! Bill |
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I too however, can't imagine my life without drag racing...nor do I want to either :) ! |
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Been this way for 46 years. Not likely to change any time soon.
Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed-----Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed 4708 S.E. Buchanan ************************** 3077 Bill Dyer E4 ****WINNER**** -0.039 11.288 114.28 ******** -0.028 12.390 106.26 G/SA Dial: 11.28 (+/-): 0.008 ************** N/S Dial: 12.33 (+/-): 0.060 Prior rounds: E3 (T Mosbek ) 0.015 11.281 -1.019 (N Grier ) 0.008 12.346 0.026 E2 (S Kopejtka ) 0.041 11.343 0.023 (J Nicholson ) 0.015 12.386 0.066 E1 (T Henderson ) 0.020 11.320 0.060 (C Stephenson) 0.095 12.356 0.036 Qualified: #11 11.242 -1.058 #39 12.319 -0.931 Buchanan will face Scheitlin in round five. |
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Isn't that a shame?
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As I have told you in an earlier post. Most of the time if you see an opponents red
lite in time(which I did in the above case) I tried to see if I could red lite if I left with just a hint of yellow instead of my usual solid yellow. As you can see I could. This proves nothing in the last many pages of posts except You are distracted or relax or can try something if you see a red lite in time. I hope this ends this debate. It was a very lively one. |
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With the proposed new programming of the christmas tree.....NEITHER RED LIGHT would come on until BOTH cars left the starting line. Either change it or do away with "First or Worst" on breakouts. Make the first to the finish line on a double breakout the LOSER........PERIOD !! |
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Mark: This is just another wrong that should (but won't) be righted...my thoughts on the divisional layout being the first, but I gave my .02 last year following the end of the '08 season, with meager support although parity in geographics would arise if implemented...
Bill: It's a major shame that with all of the other changes that've been made that affect the way we Americans live, that something old that's served its time and should be modernized won't, but who're we??? John: Bill, Bob, and I are with you in regards to this debate not being over, because what's fair for one should be fair for all...I hope that the rules committee will explore the rationale behind the collective ideas of yours, Bill's, and mine (plus anyone else who understood & agreed with the logic behind our ideas), when this season is over. In the mean time, I'm fretting over the fact that there's only 22cars in Stock Elim. this weekend in Fallon, Nv., and I'm not able to be up there in it (for budget & time off from work restrictions). I'd be willing to bet some bucks that Div. 6's holding a divisional the same wknd had something to do with the reason both Stock/Super Stock car counts are much lower than they would be if those races weren't contested the same wknd., when they're within 800 miles from each other (for one), and Boise, Id. is actually closer to Fallon, than it is to Spokane, Wa.??? Again, my .02 worth |
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