Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Yes it is Herb.

Steve

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Yes, I would say it is time to end this thread, unless someone has some photos to to post,documenting some of this stuff.
Preserving what's left of Stock Eliminator IS something worth talking about.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Its not our job to be Judge and Jury. If you dont like the car put your money where your opinions are, not on the keyboard. Pictures or not if you dont the car, become a tech man and then you can have an opinion that counts, otherwise its just an opinion.

Herb Jr

Tired of Keyboard racers talking crap about other peoples car.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

x2

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

...

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Maybe we're NOT done with this thread yet.

1, You don't have to be a racer to post in this section.

I don't know who Bob Stampfli is. He hasn't come forward yet. Maybe he is an NHRA member and long time Stock Eliminator fan.He plans on building one someday. He's got the rule book memorized.
He goes over to Maple Grove to look around . He sees cars that obviously don't follow the rulebook. He sees cars without the heater controls in the dash, (Not the Nova. I don't know, because I haven't seen it) He sees cars with the transmission tunnel removable, where the rulebook says "full stock floor required. He has to look twice to see if he's veered off into the Super Gas aisle. "Bob" hates to see Stock bastardized and turned into Bracket Two.
Who does HE get to protest?

2, I go to the Phoenix divisional, and I see the same guys working tech that are there each and every Saturday night, teching bracket cars. They're looking for safety items.They're not looking for heater controls. If you think ,because a car passes tech at a points meet, therefore it's 100 % legal ,you are dreaming.
I've spent many hours hacking away at the back of a heater control and gluing the knobs in place to save a few ounces in the middle of the car. Why? Because that's what's supposed to be there when you go through tech .It's clearly spelled out in the rulebook
Now it seems some don't want to go through all that trouble. Just weld up the holes and argue that it really doesn't matter because the car has to weigh so much anyway.

3, The kid driving the Keir Nova ,sure is a good driver.

4, That Nova has a great paint job on it.

5, #'s 3 and 4 have absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Thanks for that post, Mark; makes sense to me!

This is, after all, a "discussion board," There are no prescribed limits as to what can be discussed here that I know of, as long as the comments are "legal;" not inflammatory to the point of slander or libel.

The dissemination of information is what this is all about, and yes, sometimes it gets a little "over the top," but overall, I think it's a useful way to hash out issues that are not easily dealt with.

I think this great-running, and beautiful Nova which seems to be built with stretching the rules (not necessarily breaking them) in mind, may be just such a subject.

But, the discusssion may have run its course; is there anything pertinent left to say? Or, has it all been covered, already?

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

I agree and I posted this earlier. Doesn't matter who this person is. If the info is wrong, it needs corrected. I had a record stolen from me once. I say stolen because the car was so bogus. Much to my pleasure, soon afterward the car was put into the barn at Indy. Many of my suspicions were confirmed. This, despite what was written on this forum by their fan club about "how hard working and dedicated this racer was to the sport...blah, blah, blah"

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Did you get your record back? Or, would that be asking too much????

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

That being said, let's say you're pulling into the water for your heads-up round against a '68 Nova with a 6-71 huffer poking through the hood...following your logic, you should just take your lumps or become a tech man, right? We wouldn't even be having this discussion if the rules were ENFORCED equally across the divisions.
And no, I'm not a racer yet...I'm the guy Mark mentioned. My car that's roughly 60% done is already more legal than a lot of stuff I've seen at the track.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

I have been under the assumption for many years that the stock elim. section of the NHRA rule book should be interpetted in the negative, i.e. unless it specifically says you are allowed to make a modification, you should assume that it isn't allowed. NOT that if it doesn't say it's not allowed you are to assume that it's ok.

Bill, the rule of thumb I've always used to convert 1/8th mile times to 1/4 mile times is to divide by .65.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

The record was 10.72 in E/S, I wouldn't consider that "soft". It dropped to 10.49, an "out of this world" number. NHRA does not give records back when the thief is found to be illegal.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

The rule book used to say pretty much "These rules are presented in a positive manor, if we don't say you can do it, you can't." That was in the front of the book, many years ago. Haven't looked for it lately. Doesn't seem to matter anymore.

Seeing the newer GT cars with long chrome plated steering columns, pro stock-looking pedals coming up through the floor and moved back, the driver so far back he could not touch the dash if his life depended on it, etc, makes me glad I don't run GT. According to the rule book that is all supposed to be the same as a regular SS car. Since they now pass tech, it must now be OK. They should probably now fix the rule book. I have my hvac controls. Don't know why.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Bobby Zlatkin said, " Bill, the rule of thumb I've always used to convert 1/8th mile times to 1/4 mile times is to divide by .65."

Using that formula, the Kier A/SA car's 6.47 eighth-mile time converts to a 9.955 quarter-mile time, which was my original contention.

Apparently, the NHRA uses that formula to convert eighth-mile indexes to quarter-mile indexes, since that's where I got my original numbers.

I have no dog in this hunt; those numbers seem reasonable to me, but, what do I know???

Ed is right about the language that used to be in the rule book; if it didn't specifically say you COULD do it (legally), you coundn't...

Who knows where that went???

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

A solid number to use as a baseline for most combinations is to multiply the 1/8 mile number by 1.57-1.575. But remember that this is different from car to car, but is a great ballpark figure.

That would make the 6.47 run in the 10.16-10.19 range.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

The various formulas are all very interesting but are meaningless in this discussion. It does not matter if the Nova in question runs two seconds under or two seconds above the index.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

x2 AGAIN

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

They were trying to come up with a number, so I gave them one...

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Thanks, Lee; I appreciate the input.

The whole gist of this thread was based on the legality of some of the things that were allegedly done to this car. The implication was that they were things that were designed to make it fast.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating: is it fast?

The only way to know isto look at its numbers.

Is that not reason enough to apply a critical analysis to its performance in order to determine if there's any legitimate reason to even be LOOKING at what was done to it?

Jeesh... that would seem self-evident to me. If it's a mid-ten second car, who CARES if those mods were "legal" or not?

Doesn't appear that it is, though...runnin' really well for an A/SA car, it would seem.

Insofar as "enough is enough", nobody puts a gun to anybody's head and makes them read these posts; if you don't like it, don't read it. If something's on TV that I don't like, I turn it off...

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

I care if it's legal or not!!!!!!!!!!!

You are assume that all runs are heads up and that the only people who care about this car's legality would be cars of the same class. When in fact class racing is 95% bracket racing and the legality of the car in the other lane DOES matter. It doesn't matter if that car runs two seconds under or two seconds over.

You said, "Jeesh... that would seem self-evident to me. If it's a mid-ten second car, who CARES if those mods were "legal" or not?"...............................So, by your mentality, it would be ok for this ten second car to have a delay box? As long as it does not affect it's 1/4 mile peformance it should be legal?

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

I would be very surprised if Ken Keir would build the car to be blatantly illegal. It pushes the rulebook a bit, but I would be willing to bet that he contacted NHRA and IHRA about some of the issues.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Bob said, "So, by your mentality, it would be ok for this ten second car to have a delay box? As long as it does not affect it's 1/4 mile peformance it should be legal?"

You're right; I over-stated the case with regard to the "legality issues".

The original list of items contained several that were ostensibly, performance-related.

To wit:
1. Motor Plate
2. Motor / Mounts moved back
6. Frame connected above the floor
9. A-Frame adjustable stops

To me, the primariy issues (as opposed to B.S., nit-picking "no heater controls"-type of carping) had to do with the modifications that were performed to make the car quicker.

That, to me, was the main thrust of the complaints about this car, so that was the bunny trail my mind went down....

Of COURSE, I wouldn't want to see this car allowed to run with a delay box... Sorry I gave the wrong impression..

Your point is well-taken.

Bill

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

The frame connected above the floor has only been legal for what 15-20 years. And the motor plate is only a 1/2 plate according to someone who saw it. Before you can bitch about someones car you need to know the rules yourself.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Rule book Section 8A Stock cars, #4 Frame (page 109) says frame can be joined front to rear in a straight line "extending through car floor" with floor completely welded to member. Is this only regarding round tubing? I had the 2"x3" material and had to run it through floor. This was Div. 4 tech. Someone please enlighten me.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

You are correct Herb.....this thread is getting old from all the BS from the "arm chair" tech people on here. Why dont you give it a rest until Dave Ley or one of the other Div. 1 tech guys who accually knows stockers and cares about stock and super stock gives the car a through inspection at one of his circuit races or an NHRA event in Div. one. Dave is VERY knowledgeable and pulls no favorites. Ive known Ken Kier since the early 70's and he built my SS/IA Camaro when he was just starting out over 30 years ago so I doubt very much he is pushing the rules here. He's one of the best chassis guys in the business and has built more than just comp cars. When Dave Ley or one of the "real" NHRA tech inspectors sees it I have no doubt that the results will be plastered all over this forum in a matter of min. if not seconds. Theres "Telephone....Telegraph....and Tell-A-Racer". All of this speculation means squat and just causes hard feelings for all involved. In fact I will call Dave Ley this evening and ask him to take a close look at it the first chance he gets. Beautiful car Ken ! This thread is starting to sound like a bunch of old women...LOL.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

This statement brings up a very valid point. What if Mr Keir contacted his Division Director/Tech Inspector and was given the green light on this stuff. How does the rest of us find out what is now deemed "acceptable"? Are there procedures in place to inform other Division/Inspectors what is now legal? Is the information passed on to Glendora for rulebook revisions? It would only be fair for all involved to get the same information and know they are still legal in their home division too.

Wade O

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Why is there so much crap about a car that has run 2 events, they teched in at Maple Grove points race and ran an IHRA event. It did not set any records or win big money at Indy, the car is sharp no doubt about it. Like my old friend Xtechman said Dave Ley knows his stuff so we will see what come out of all this bull. No ones car is perfect and that is a fact, if its bogus it will come out but from what I have seen and heard do not hold your breath, heater controls ? give me a break......the car must be a second faster with that delete

GIVE IT A REST.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

1/8 mile et x 1.59 is more accurate

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Bob Stampfli needs a kick in the A--
Why would you want to pick a guys car apart? Just to start trouble !
When Bob gets a job as a tech person then He can open his big mouth.
99 % of the stockers out there can be DQ'd @anytime
I know Ken Keir and He's a first class guy !
They should Delete this thread and let Bob go watch the soaps...........

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Depends on the car, but this is the closest one to my car yet.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

I'm new here, but thought I'd jump into the fire feet first.Back in Feb.or Mar. I rode along with a friend to get his chassis certified. NHRA tech guy was doing chassis certification and Ken Keir's shop. Their car was still in the progress of being finished. I can say that I saw with my own two eyes that the car had a two piece motor plate and adjustable suspension stops mounted on the control arms. I can also testify to the fact than car is one awesome piece of engineering. I'm just stating what I saw, but don't take any STOCK (pun) in what I say, I'm just a dumb ***** bracket racer.

Dave Printz

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Ive heard more than once in asking IS THAT LEGAL Its easier to ask for forgivness than for permission

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Well, what do you know? Just when we thought this thread was used up...another eyewitness.
But... I don't see Dave Printz's name on Drag Race Central in the last year...so let's beat him up good. He must be lying...trouble maker... Who's first?

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

When the Nova goes to a NHRA National Event and passes tech it will be legal, end of story.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

HI I just had to reply to this post.I am the guy that bought Jerry Ryans S/S a few years back most of you know the wheel stands the car did and how fast it was.But when I bought the car I was excited about running Super stock with my buddy Larry Hodge and all of the old guys that had been around forever.BUT instead what I got was a bunch of BULL SH?T at the first race I took the car to INDY.I was informed by Div 3 Tech that my car needed to be back halfed because it had been illegal since 1999.Keep in mind this is 5 years later and oh ya I am real excited now.So I looked in other cars and guess what at least 15 cars were just like mine ,so I went to NHRA Head guys and they told me it was like driving down a road 80 mph for 10 years and finally getting caught.Gee I am REALLY ecited now .So I did what I had to do to play in THIER GAME spent at least 8000.00 on car and after that they never questioned anything.So all I can say to all of this is LIFE IS NOT ALWAYS FAIR BUT LETS NOT TURN ON EACH OTHER remember 99 percent of racers are just out here having fun

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

why did it have to be back halfed?

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Four link bars came above floor line, even though they were boxed in.The new way which makes it legal is to make the tubs bigger and include bars .The point is alot of cars are still wrong also this car had won national events and race for years this way and teched at every event all over the country.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Chris,

Read my post #28 on page 3. The protrusion was so small into the rear seat area to clear the four-link, that I didn't even realize it existed until Dennis said he had to change it. It was that way when we bought the car out of Division 3, and no one had ever mentioned or questioned it. But Dennis bit the bullet and changed it. We bought back a much better car.

The ironic part of all this, is that the car that won best Best Engineered car (a Hemi-Cuda) at the same event Dennis was told to make his legal, had a much more obvious intrusion into the floor pan, and it was detailed on their web site for everyone to see. How do you win BEST ENGINEERED when it isn't CORRECTLY engineered.

So although this thread started with regard to a particular Nova, it's life has continued much to JR'S dismay because it's really about CONSISTENT application of the rules, or lack thereof, from Division to Division and even within Divisions in some cases as Dennis pointed out.

NHRA could make all this work, but monetarily, their heart isn't into doing stuff for the "hayseeds" right now. There are bigger pockets to worry about, their own.

Jerry

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

Jerry

You can't compare any Super Sock car to the Hemi's -they have their own
rules. I am sure almost everyone has an example vs a hemi car.Not bashing
the hemi guys just stating a fact.

Re: The Keir Stocker is absolutely 1st rate craftsmanship - but is it legal?
 

I'm with Art.......If the car is running NHRA events it is Legal until it's found illegal......just that simple!

Jim