Re: AHFS details
 

Byron, from what I read only the SS/GT LT1s got it, right? Not regular SS cars? Did I miss something? You run SS/IA? All these SS/GT cars built like Comp cars makes my very happy they use different factors.

Re: AHFS details
 

Yes only the GT combo got hit but my brother's car is an f body camaro. He has gotten 12 horsepower in the last two years from a cavalier. That's another arguement.

Re: AHFS details
 

Mike, I have sent numberous emails to Bruce w/others cc'd in, expressing my concern with the omission of that sentence!!!

The AHFS was implemented to prevent horsepower being given to a combo for a one time hit on the combo!! Now, with the way it reads without that sentence, that is exactly what they are doing.....giving horsepower base on a single event!!!! My reply from Bruce was 3 runs from Joliet of greater than 1.15 under triggered this review!! Even though my overall engine family avg. was .800 under and my class average was .780 under.....I'm being penalized because somebody running a class which I cannot, ran 1.15 under 3 times at a single event, thus "triggering" the review under this "NEW" system!!

I think NHRA should admit this sentence is key to the AHFS, and recind all horsepower given on combo effected by single event horsepower triggers that were given out in this last review!!!

I have requested this with emails to Bruce, Pat and others!! I have yet to hear back an answer on that request!! Just that "this is the way the rule reads now" so basically deal with it!!! I'm sorry, but to me that is just not acceptable and I will keep voicing my displeasure to whomever wants to hear it!!! Or should I say whomever I want to hear it!!!

Re: AHFS details
 

When they factored me over 8 percent in one shot it was fine with everyone.
Watch out they can do that to you.
They make the rules and you have to abide by them, not them.

Re: AHFS details
 

Until racers have input into the system and there is accountability it will never be fair. This is another example of NHRA doing whatever they want with no regard to what is right or fair. Mike I appreciate your efforts but you are wasting your time and energy. For those who say it's their organization and if you don't like it don't race, I say BS. It's our organization founded for the benefit of the members. Right now the main focus is keeping top management and board members lavish salary structure in place. A non profit should have accountability to it's members.

Re: AHFS details
 

I'm afraid that this issue has about played itself out for this go-around. About all that's left to do is to apply the lessons of the past couple of weeks to the future. My view of the situation is not a personal reflection on any of the individuals involved and I certainly appreciate the willingness of a number of very visible participants in the AHFS/tech process to either contact me directly or to send me their views through other conduits. As in most similar situations that involve almost every aspect of our daily lives in addition to this sport, no one is ever at fault for something that doesn't meet general expectations. For a large organization, that's the beauty of a "committee" or a "system." It's impossible for anyone outside the inner loop to find out exactly what transpired.

We can only lick our wounds and plan ahead. To me, there are several basic things that are clear:

1. Nothing ever remains what it seems to be for very long. Sudden, abrupt changes are what it's all about.
2. The wording of any "system" is usually vague enough to eventually bite you in the ***. That's why it's called a "system."
3. Anyone who relies on "past practice" as interpreted by any "system" is likely to be unpleasantly surprised.
4. This is merely precursor to other interpretations that could be made, either pre-announced or applied retroactively. We need to study the "system" for how it can. worst case, be interpreted and plan for that eventuality.
5. Screw me once, it's your fault. Screw me twice, it's my fault.

Among the future surprises that might show up (unannounced or retroactively) could be:

1. Runs at altitude tracks could be counted (unannounced and/or retroactively).
2. Runs at National Opens and/or Divisionals could be viewed as triggers and/or counted in the average (unannounced and/or retroactively). Don't assume that just because it is more complicated to do it this way, it won't be done. Most of us are computer literate enough to know that it could be done electronically should the organization decide to devote resources to resolving the side issues.
3. The wording of the "system" including phrases such as "engine family average" and "class/engine average" can be re-interpreted at any time for any reason, unannounced and/or retroactively.

The bottom line is clearly that racers can take nothing for granted. Any time that any racer goes down the track, the data will be available to someone at some point in the future to be used to justify any interpretation. We've just had an example laid out for us. If we don't learn from it, it's our own fault.

c

Re: AHFS details
 

Sure would make me nervous to run the CIC race at No Problem Raceway for the Sports Nationals next year.

Re: AHFS details
 

Sportsnational do not count toward AHFS per NHRA

Re: AHFS details
 

EMMONS and don't know which one but..

With the new Taylor power in your 2 cars you should be nervous anywhere..LOL...Wow that Cavalier is fast now and consistent..You all can really get some HP triggers now,LOL.

Re: AHFS details
 

We should ask NHRA for a written statement that it will NOT count!!

Re: AHFS details
 

If you get national points and it counts as one of the six national events for points, its a national event.

Re: AHFS details
 

Does anyone have Pat Cvengros email address?

Re: AHFS details
 

patc@nhra.com should be his email address

Re: AHFS details
 

Facts and Figures with details and show NHRA if they made an error. You must play by their rules..



More mid-year horsepower and index adjustments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8/10/2009




Following further review by NHRA, 99-02 GM 346 305/310 – factor for non-ram air combinations returned from 369 to 364 due to a recording error that had listed the trigger runs as non-ram air combinations where upon further review the trigger runs were a ram air combination.


http://www.nhra.net/content/sportsma...7776&zoneid=85

Re: AHFS details
 

1st letter of 1st name, then spell out last name to reach anyone who has a NHRA e-mail address.

pcvengros@nhra.com


Travis

Re: AHFS details
 

Sorry I made a mistake

Re: AHFS details
 

Bobby, there is not enough room on the hard drive to list all your mistakes. Let's start with No A100-2 and of course you remember Z308-90. That one was really bad. And this system sucks bad enough without the surprises. One thing I have never understood about stuff like this. It would be easier, much better for customer relations, and cheaper to just let it be. Am I missing something here? Maybe huh?

Re: AHFS details
 

I am so confused

Re: AHFS details
 

Yes Jeff,
You are missing something! They don't give a hoot about Sportsman customer relations.

Re: AHFS details
 

Me too! The AHFS rule is so vague that we can all have a different interpretation!! The problem is, our's will be wrong and NHRA's is right! It's like Hideo Nomo pitching to Jorge Posada!!! We need an interpreter!!!!!

Re: AHFS details
 

Believe me Bruce, I totally understand. I am just greatly dissapointed after the SRAC was formed with a promise of better relations for the Sportsman.

Re: AHFS details
 

I think we all understand your disappointment Jeff. I think we are all very disappointed. Jim

Re: AHFS details
 

Disappointed but, sadly, not particularly surprised, Jim. People who have been around long enough have seen so many reversals and backtracks that nothing is really a surprise. Recall the days when sedan deliveries had hydros? Remember the year that Stock was simply wiped out and we all automatically became Super Stockers? I've seen pictures of the Modified Eliminator protest parade but I wasn't in attendance that day. I was at Indy the year that Pro Stock Truck was discontinued. Then, there are a number of smaller things like the recent spark plug adapter system that was reportedly approved in writing before it was disclaimed. Last year it was a Stocker suspension system that had been ignored for years that was deemed to be outside the intent of the rules.

This is a business. The organization owns the business. We get the business.

Jeff, and the SRAC, thanks for trying.

Cheers,

c

Re: AHFS details
 

Chuck, I don't see any of management at NHRA with shares of Stock. I also don't see any of them with their own money invested. How can the management own NHRA, a non profit corporation, that's supposed to be doing things to benefit the members of the organization. They had an opportunity with the SRAC to be more inclusive and racer friendly and chose not to do that. Are they violating their non profit charter by loading the board with members picked by management? Why is their no accountability to the members? Until racers and track owners stand up nothing will ever change. The combination of ignorance and arrogance is especially dangerous.

Re: AHFS details
 

Greg,

I am sadly lacking in my ability to express my opinions on the questions you have raised without carrying the discussion past the point of good common sense. Of course, it's easy to pass that point when dealing with an issue that carries a heavy burden of emotional baggage.

A casual observer might form the belief that the upper management of the organization has a distinct emotional attachment but it is not to the esthetics of drag racing nor is it even remotely related to Sportsman racing or Sportsman racers. It is directly related to making money. I don't remember exactly when it happened but, some years ago, there was a published announcement that, henceforth, the organization was no longer a "club" but something else that was no longer responsible to the "members" but to a Board of Directors that was independent of the "membership." Ask Bruce Noland about the fine points, he's much more completely informed. I just know that it's been many years since "accountability" to "members" was anything but an illusion. Any of the "members" who retain a belief in that illusion will be ultimately disappointed but will continually be in a state of angst about the way things are going. This is a down-to-earth, in-your-face example of what happens when a group of people who are emotionally or passionately involved with an activity such as drag racing come face-to-face with another group of people who are emotionally or passionately involved with making a profit. What's happening isn't personal, it's merely business.

"Standing up" would be an option if anyone were to be astute enough to figure out how to herd cats! Picture an inner city skid-row situation in which all the addicts living on the streets became organized, elected members to an advisory committee, wrote a business plan and "stood up" to the pushers, asking for lower drug prices, home delivery, cleaner needles, and respect. Does that sound like a program that might engender a high expectation of success?

The good news is that we are (mostly) not living on the streets, are (mostly) able to find something else to do, and are (mostly) in possession of our faculties. It's just that making the personal decision to walk away from the needle is a tough one. You young guys have a much tougher decision to make than do we old-timers. You're facing more years to live without the needle.

Nice chatting with you. Hope things are going well in Derbyland.

c

Re: AHFS details
 

eloquently said chuck... i particularly like the "herd cats" reference...

it is impossible to get the members to stand up together, cause everyone is on thier own agenda...
there will never ba a boycott of any race... someone will see it as an easy opportunity to win, with no idea of the big picture.

i have raced my last indy... i have built my last stocker motor...i only joined nhra this season to run pat's race... which should be the model for all sportsman races !

captain jack

just a big block and a posi away from rod runs with the big wagon... holds a lot of beer / friends !

Re: AHFS details
 

[QUOTE=Chuck Norton;

The good news is that we are (mostly) able to find something else to do, and are (mostly) in possession of our faculties.
c[/QUOTE]

That could be debatable......lol.

Re: AHFS details
 

Dont forget to add the A/C to keep the beer cool.

Re: AHFS details
 

Chuck, you really think Bobby Brannon is in control of his faculties? Nicely put. The date the membership ended was 1981 and (supposedly) enough members voted to give the Board the sole power to vote on issues. And Bobby isn't the only one. Not in control. A/C for beer is good. Cap't Jack likes A/C'ed beer.
Did I miss anyone. I just applied for my Social Security. Maybe it's time to quit. Maybe we are all too hard headed to quit. I guess I don't conduct my business like NHRA does, and that part I just don't understand. Maybe, maybe, maybe

Re: AHFS details
 

Jeff, if you did, you'd have been OUT OF BUSINESS,a long time ago...

Re: AHFS details
 

Chuck, if making money is their sole reason for being in businees , how do they keep their non profit status? I have been on a couple of non profit boards over the years and members always elected the board. I believe NHRA is still operating under their original charter from back inn the 50's. I wonder if the IRS has had a look lately? What about the for profit corporations owned by NHRA? Whose money got invested in those? I guess my whole point is that if the management owns NHRA they stole it.

Re: AHFS details
 

You guys need to be nicer to Bobby.

Re: AHFS details
 

[QUOTE=Jeff Teuton;135242]Chuck, you really think Bobby Brannon is in control of his faculties?

Normally, having written on a topic, I'd have already moved on to new musings but, in this instance I feel an obligation to respond directly to a direct question:

I don't know Bobby Brannon as well as do you, but I think we're at a level that would justify my introducing him as a "friend and competitor." On all occasions that we've had conversations I have found him to be the epitome of a southern gentleman in the way that I've understood the term for the last fifty or sixty years. He is courteous, polite, and accommodating. I no reason to believe that he is not an upstanding citizen.

That's enough said.

In retrospect, Chariie Manson was a frat brother, too. Perhaps I'm not discerning enough in choosing "friends." Who knows?

c

Re: AHFS details
 

Q1. how do they keep their non profit status?
A1. Hell, I'm just a retired school teacher. Ask Julie Jordan. She's an accountant and more informed in these things. All I know is that they've had good legal minds on the staff for many years and no one has been able to break down the walls even though it's been tried.

Q2. I wonder if the IRS has had a look lately?
A2. I doubt it. They're too busy questioning my racing expenses.

Statement 1. I guess my whole point is that if the management owns NHRA they stole it.
Response 1. No comment. See A1.

c

Re: AHFS details
 

Any news on the interpretation of the "New AHFS Rule" or is it as now written?