Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

D-Dart (D/Stock) Info from 1966.
D/S Class/Factor 10.60 - 11.29
D/S NHRA record...12.98 (February 1966)

D-Dart ran in C/Stock in 1967 (Classes bumped up one, by NHRA)
D-Dart ran in F/Stock in 1968
D-Dart ran in G/Stock in 1969 thru 1971

HP rating never re-factored. NHRA did not have any records of listed
competitors in registry for 66' 273/275hp Darts. For G/Stock or
SuperStock/J.

Successful D-Dart racers, Ted Spehar "Spehars Automotive" 66' - 67'
and Bob Banning "Little Ramchargers" w/Dave Reitz driving, 66' - 67'.
Both hit 12.90's in early-mid 67'.

Time to re-factor.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Paul
Do you have any info on Spehar's old car. I currently own it. It's kind of hard finding info on the car. It was raced in 1970 by Jon Rasbach at Lapeer Dragway in HS/A. In 1971 Al Adam bought it and raced it in various classes. I bought it from Al back in late 2001. Any help would be appreciated.

I have some old time slips that I got from Ralph Costa and the best ET in the bunch was 12.92 and the best MPH was 105. Both were achieved at Detroit Dragway and I think the year was 1966. Not 1967. It also raced at Milan, National Trail Raceway and maybe Motor City Dragway. Lots of hand written notes on the slips including total timing, plug gaps, shift points, trap RPM's. Pretty neat stuff.

Again....any info would be appreciated.
Alan Hvizdos
Chrysler Tech Center --- Retiree

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Before anyone mounts a campaign to obtain a more favorable NHRA horsepower factor, it would be expeditious to get it re-instated as a Stocker, unless you're only interested in running it in Super Stock.

It's not in the Stock Class section of the Classification guide, now, and regardless of what NHRA allowed it to run 40 years ago, if it's not in the Guide, now, (as a Stocker) it can't run Stock Eliminator.

Seeing as how it has a history of running Stock, and was created for that purpose by Ma MoPar, I would think it shouldn't be too hard to get NHRA to put it into the guide as a legal Stocker.

But, somebody needs to work on getting that done, I think, before a new HP factor is sought after.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Bill,
I think the only information that the NHRA has listed on the 66' D-Dart is that it was listed from the factory as a Super Stock Package.
It was listed in the car description from Dodge as equipped with
a Super Stock 66 Engine.
S.C. 364 (Special Order Engine)
That's what the NHRA is going by?
But, in 1966 the only Super Stock class in the NHRA was S/S or S/SA.
Of course the car is listed as a D-Dart. And designated for the D/Stock
class by the NHRA. As built, the car met the legal requirements.
Weight 2946 and horsepower 275.
Whether 50 cars were actually built is still debateable. Back then, it appears that as long as a VIN #'s list with 50 cars produced was sent to the NHRA, the car could be approved for the class designated. Nobody did any in depth investigation. Some paper-shuffling probably occurred
on the D-Dart production, accidentally-on-pupose.
The D-Dart, (Super Stock Package) is really a misnomer. Now, if the
current 273/235 was (re-rated to 210 HP), maybe and quite possibly the
273/275 D-Dart could at least have a (250 HP re-factor). At least, thats
a start in the right direction. But, who wants to run that car. Are they
any 1966 Darts left in America. Probably easier to find a DeLorean;)
PC

accidentally-on-purpose.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Paul, not to change gears on you during this thread, but could you post up some 65-66 Valiant 273/235 hp 4sp car production #'s?(if you've got access to them). Especially interested in convertible cars w/that option pkg....Much thanks. WJ (Orange, Ma. paratrooper:D)

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

W J,
That question just might get me to start jumping out of airplanes;)
Never saw a 273/235 Commando in a 65/66 Valiant convertible. Though I would imagine some were produced.
An old high-school friend of mine had a 65' Dart GT (white w/black convertible top (with the plastic rear window, that would yellow due to
sun exposure) with a 273/235 Commando. An automatic on the column.
Not sure of the interior color. But, it came with a non-posi rear. I do remember the one-wheel spins.
The car still sits in a garage in Jefferson Valley, NY.
The 8 3/4" Sure-Grip was not available until 1966.
OLDRIDE.com may have info on the convertible Valiants.:confused:
Paul (Pull the Rip-Cord)

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Thank you sir. This old high school classmate's ordered ride was a Valiant '66 dark green convert/blk top & int., 4 sp., 3.91 sure grip, (not sure if it was a 8&3/4" or not),273/235 (small Commmando emblems on front fenders), had the rectangular, rather large box chrome (maybe even stainless) exhaust tip, I remember he ordered it w/Formula S handling pkg---came w/wide 14" rims and Goodyear Blue Streak tires. It was a very quick little street car and he also won quite a # of trophies at--you guessed it-- the Orange, Ma. air strip track, and also at Lebanon Valley and Ct. Dragway.....He traded the thing in shortly after getting married....:eek: I never saw another Commando 273/235, 4 sp. convert, but there were at least 2, two-dr. Sedan Valiant 235 hp Commando cars running at tracks in New England, Lebanon, NY, and Connecticut Dragway. Very competetive, and pretty rare little cars...... Keep going, Paul...:) WJ

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Paul,

I owned a '65 black Valiant convertible with white interior and a white top with the 273/235 and 4speed and in 1991 I bought a '66 gold convertible with white interior 273/235 4 speed Valiant. The owner said that only 12 hipo convert's were built in 1966....don't know where he got his stat's.

JimR

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

W J (No jumpimg out of the plane just yet).
1965 Production #'s
Valiant (Convertibles)..........2769
w/273/235HP Commando....235 (8.5%)
No information on the 4-speed/automatic breakdown

1966 Production #'s
Valiant (convertibles)............2507
w273/235HP Commando......188 (7.5%)
No information on the 4-speed/automatic breakdown

In 1965, the rear-end was only available with a 7 1/4" Hotchkiss drive,
non-posi unit. (2.76, 2.93, 3.23, 3.55 or 3.91 gear ratio's)
9" Brakes....Slant-6
10' Brakes...V-8

Note, Sometime late in the 1965 production year, some cars were
made available with the 8 3/4" Sure-Grip Posi unit.

Hopefully that was somewhat helpful.
Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Paul, thanks for the great help obtaining those Valiant convert Commando production #'s....so much for only 12 being produced in 1966, ha.....:)WJ

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

W J,
Hard to find exact information on the 65/66 Valiant and Darts,
especially Formula-S and GT equipped cars.
Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

W J,
The 65' and 66' Valiants were not available with the Formula S
Package. Only available in the Barracuda's.
But the 273/235HP Commando engines were available, and equipped with the special single exhaust system, with the chrome-tipped resonator.
The Valiants may have been available with the Performance Group
Package though?
As for the D-Darts in stock. I don't think anyone would want to go through the effort of putting one together, document ET-times, to prove to the
NHRA that it should be re-rated, with a more favorable (proper) HP rating.
I guess it will have to stay.
Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Thanks Paul, called my old friend that ordered/owned that '66 Valiant 273/235 Commando Convertible car, and he said the car had a "Rally Pack Pkg"?? He thought it included some different shocks/maybe a HD suspension piece or 2, quicker steering, the wider 14" steel wheels, and the Goodyear Bluestreak tires....Maybe someone else reading the post who really knows these Hi-Po '65-6 Valiants can enlighten us more on these cars... WJ

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

W J,
It was actually called the Performance Group Package. I have to dig up the Code #, which I have somewhere, along with exact options.
It was similar to the Formula S Package on the Cuda's. Only difference,
no "S" badging of course, tachometer, and no GoodYear Blue-Streak tires. They could be ordered as an option.
Here's the #'s.
65' Valiant 273/235HP convertibles.
235 produced. (156 Automatic).... (79 4-speeds)
What's rare. A late-year produced 65', with an 8 3/4" Sure-Grip Posi.
The early ones only came through with a 7 1/4".
Oh... This is the D-Daert page............Mi' dollente'
Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Starting to look like the D-Dart/Valiant thread....The lowly Valiant wants it's own thread, Paul.... They say nothing revs like a built 273....WJ

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

This from the Dodge Technical Service Bulletin, April 18, 1966

" This bulletin covers a general and detailed specifacations on the 1966 Maximum Performance Drag Package. The first four digits of the car serial number LO23 identify these cars."

Also describes the engine "The engine is basicly the 273 cu. in, hi-performance model modified for maximum performance"

Also an ad from Walker Dodge in Canoga Park, CA ciyca 1966; " The limited production Drag Package Dart. Stock from the factory with 273 CU IN. Rated At 275HP. Dodge Built only 50 Of These Cars....
Stock equpiped with" and the ad goes on with the basics of the car.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Saw one over at the drags in Bremerton, WA last year. It was a 4-speed car. The guy was the original owner.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

There's no doubt in my mind of Paul's credentials. I follow his efforts every year and am amazed at what he can do to get those cars to run that fast.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Paul,

I agree except the Holley was a 4160, list 3778 rated at 750 cfm. This is the carb off the 65 race hemi.. Also, didn't the motors have a spacer for the butterflies to clear?

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

W J,
Yes this is rally a D-Dart thread.
But since you brought the 273 Commando's up. Yes they could wind.
Didn't want to bring this up on this thread. But back in May 1968,
my father bought my mother a 67' Barracuda Fastback, yes with the
273 Commando, 4-speed with the console. Yellow, with black interior.
It was equipped with the Performance Group. HD rear-suspension,
HD torsion bars, Front Sway-bar. Sure-Grip 3.23 Posi.
6.95" x 14" white walls with deluxe wheel covers. Yes with that special singl-exhaust with the chrome-tipped resonator. No, it was not a Formula-S.
Cost, $2735, from McNulty Chrysler-Plymouth, Carmel, New York
Only 4000 miles on it. The sales managers wife didn't like the
4-speed. Either did my mother, it was a horrible long-throw
Inland shifter, with the reverse trigger (equipped with a rubber-band
tension thread). A real pain, when utilized with the console.
Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

W J,
June 1968, my father takes my mothers car to Dover Drag Strip,
classed in J/Stock. Without her knowledge, of course:rolleyes:
With the air cleaner on (Chrome unit, w/Commando lettering), spare tire in trunk and no air adjustment for the tires, ran an honest 16.35.
First time out won class trophy. Beat out a couple of 66' 289/225Hp
Mustangs, a 68' 290/220HP Javelin and a 65' Chevelle Malibu convertible 327/250 HP.
Thats all it took.
Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Paul, back then I was running a '64 maroon hdtp. Malibu SS, 283/ 220hp power pack, Muncie 4sp, 3.70 posi car. It was real respectable for the times, running high 14's, but the green Valiant convert 273/235 beat me pretty regularly at the track when we were paired up....Damn, wish I had put that Malibu away in a barn somewhere...... :) WJ

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

W J,
Now thats a rare car. Nice little engine too:cool:
Paint code #922 Ember Red. (Body shop/paint days:D)
Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

dat4forte,

The carburetor for the D-Dart was a Holley #4160 (List #3778)
Which means it had metering-plates only.
A single-feed with the short transfer tube, between the front and back float bowls.
It was a vacuum-only for the secondaries.
The butterly openings were 1 11/16" (Primary and Secondary).
Here's the confusion, what was the CFM-rating.
It was 700 CFM.
Holley serial #'s _776 = 600 CFM
_777 = 650 CFM
_778 = 700 CFM (D DART)
_779 = 750 CFM
_780 = 800 CFM

* The D DART carburetor was equipped with a manual choke only.
PC

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

So what you are saying is the last three numbers in the list number is the CFM rating? Also, I thought the spacer between the carb and the manifold was to allow full openings of the butterflys. If that's true then why did they need to bore out the manifold? I wonder how that motor would of responded to an Edelbrock D4B?

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Yes,
The Holley List #'s for the #3775, #3776, etc. coincide with the higher
CFM ratings.
I mis-stated earlier that the D-Dart Holley carb was a 600-CFM rated unit. I was incorrect, as I didn't check my old data sheet.
It was a Holley 4160, with a 700 CFM rating.
Again, more mystery surrounding the D-Dart information.
Also, the carburetor wasn't just a bolt-on, from out-of-the box. It was tweaked at the factory ("Chrysler Performance Factory-Prepped").
Just what did that mean? (Next posting)
PC

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Maybe tweeked by teams/driver that had sucess with their 273 combos

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

On the Edelbrock, aluminum dual-plane high-rise intake.
Now that MANIFOLD should have been part of the standard unit for the
D-Dart. Worked well in mid-range 3800 - 5800 RPM.
A nice way to bolt-on an additional 15HP.
Not too bad of price either ($100 back in 1971). Worked very well with
our 67' 273/235 Cuda convertible/automatic car (SS/NA in 72'/73').
Only draw-back, the Carter #4295A (500 CFM) was a little under-sized.
PC

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

To Akan Hvizdos (ddartdude),
Regarding Post #12.
Nothing on Ted Spehar/Ralph Costa.
But one thing perplexes me? What was Jon Rasbach doing in
H/SA in 1970. Now I think Lapeer Dragway didn't open until 1968.
To be classified in H/S (11.00 -11.49 wt/hp) that weight factor was
used by NHRA in 69'/70'/71' (3 straight years)
I'm wondering if the NHRA didn't re-rate the HP for the D-Dart to
265HP at that time, giving it an 11.11 stock class factor.
I remember back then, that the NHRA re-rated the 340/275HP to
290HP.
Now I don't think Lapeer was an AHRA sanctioned track. But
Detroit Dragway, where Ted Spehar ran was AHRA-sanctioned.
PC

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Paul,
sJust looked at the photo of Jon and the D/Dart and it had L/SA not H/SA on the windshield. Not sure what the weight factor of it would be. Jon did put on the photo, although it was done by computer, that it was taken at Lapeer during the summer of 1970. I talked to him briefly on night and he said he didn't know what it ran back then -- but in the one picture he sent to me, his wife is standing next to thecar holding a trophy.

Jon bought the car from Spehar in the Summer of 70 with the automatic already in it. He raced it a few times that summer and then sold it to Al Adam sometime in 1971. I bought it in 2002 from Al. At the time, it was at his mom's place in Reading,Pa. I think Al may have raced the car there at times.

Alan

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Okay, food for thought. 1969 Chevy 427 and 1969 Chevy Z-28 with the 302 both had 4150 Holley carbs rated from the factory at 780 CFM. Example, the 427 carbs had a listing of #4346 for the COPOs and #4396 for the ZL1. So how does that fit with what you state above?

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

It doesn't.
What I was stating is that on Model 4160 carbs, with a List #3776
thru #3800, the CFM ratings start at 600 CFM, and ascend up to
800 CFM.
As for other Holley carbs, the List #'s are over the place.
Nothing symetrical.
For instance, the Holley 4160 carb for the 68' Race Hemi has a
List #4235 (Right side, 770 CFM carb)
List #4236 (Left side, 770 CFM carb)

I will not answer a Chevy question:o
PC

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

I thought I'd slip that chivy question in

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

John,

Okay, I will answer one Chevy question.
Yes, they make very nice Tow Cars;)

I see your Moniker is dart4forte. I'm guessing, but did you have a
69' M-Code 440 Dart?
PC

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

Back to Alan,
On Ted's old car.
If it was classed in L/SA (automatic), then that photo has to be from
1972.
L/S in 1972 was (12.50 - 12.99). Exactly where we were classed with our 67' Cuda and 273/235HP Darts.
Maybe they swapped the Holley for a Carter #4120A AFB, left the
Camcraft camshaft in, and claimed 235 HP.
That sounds more in-line. ET's of 14.20 would have easily been enough to capture a Class trophy each Sunday.:)
Paul

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

No, actually I own a 71 Charger with a stroker under the hood. It goesto Russo and Steel in January. I actually like the A bodies. I own a 64 sedan (post) that I'm putting the final touches on and a 64 Dart convertable that I just started. With the sedan I'm going to try my hand at Bonneville. Looking to start at the 130 MPH club and then move to 150 MPH club. After that I may go into class. Always wanted to try that out.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

John,
Both cars are nice rides. Like the fenderwells, gives the car an
authentic Jr. Stock look, and a little easier to change the plugs, oil filter and attempt starter repairs.
I had an under-chassis set on one of my Cuda's, oil all over the headers,
near impossible to get at the starter wires and scorched hands from changing hot plugs.
Good luck on the auction. Hopefully you'll hear "SOLD, SOLD, SOLD"
PC
* Oh, I bet that makes a nice vacuum sound whent hose dual-quads
kick in.

Re: D/Dart in Stock
 

The guy that built the motor took them over to a buddy of mine and dialed them in on his S/6 motor. Once he got the leakers fixed they were both real crisp and idled they way they should. Time will tell, haven't fired my motor yet. Still some more things to do