Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Marc,
Going back to the old points now would be a slap in the face. Now in 2010 if they put in the rules that if TOC is rained out they will go figure the old points I would be fine with that. Like Beard said, I only ran 2 nationals because I was going to be in.
The race must be finished.
Chip

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

just having some fun....:)

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Damien,

Pugsley is calling you out because you're now saying that you dislike the TOC format, but back when we first had the discussion about it you said you liked it 97.75691%.

As for the IHRA and TOC race, split the money to those that showed up and move on in life. This race is not going to be run in 2009, and the IHRA as we knew it is dead. They're nothing but a glorified monster truck show with drag cars. If you want to support an alternative sanctioning body to NHRA, support the new AHRA which appears will be contesting all of the usual sportsman classes. They can't possibly do any worse of a job that what IHRA management did.

Why they ran the Sportsnationals race on the same weekend is beyond me. If you want to make it lucrative for racers to come down (2 for 1), run the Sportsnationals race AFTER the TOC, and give the winner of that race entry into the 2010 TOC race. Get the important business out of the way, and leave time for the fun race, weather and time permitting.

And you can't go back to figuring out points after the fact. People won their entry to the TOC and stopped going to additional events. So, you can't penalize them because they won early.

If this race is going to be run in 2010, why bother. To crown the 2009 champions? Yeah, congratulations. You get to enjoy being the champ for all of a week until the next Nitro Jam event (they're not called "National Events" anymore, because they're not events, just circus side shows). No awards ceremony or pomp and circumstance for you. Here's your dumb dusty trophy from last year and a check, now get out of our face. You may as well just make it like any other race, and if you want to make it extra special, double the payout. Though I doubt that will happen.

Here's another idea - how about if IHRA does reschedule the race eventually (according to the Mayan's, after 12/21/2012 should be free for everybody), why doesn't IHRA offer up tow money to all the competitors that made the trip the first time? Yeah, I'll hold my breath waiting for that one.

This fiasco doesn't affect me in the least, other than the fact that I'm tired of seeing my sportsman racing brethren getting ***** upon.

And I thought it couldn't get any worse than NHRA's management...

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Again, why should this be treated different than any other national event? If Pomona rains out, will you expect NHRA to just split the money among the potential championship contenders? Doesn't make any sense. You have to crown World Champions, and you have to RACE for it, in my opinion.

1) To give racers one last shot to qualify for the TOC
2) To make the weekend financially viable. Remember, there's no "entry fee" for the TOC. IHRA and the track have to make some money somewhere. Would a track reasonably take on an event where the ONLY income was from spectators/crew? Sportsman payouts are still a sizable nut to crack.

Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. We were all presented with a worst case scenario. The issue now is how to deal with it. At this point, I would like them to make a decision, period.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Well an email or letter has been sent out from IHRA prompting the qualifiers to give some feedback on how to handle this. First of all, I must say that this is the first year for the TOC and it uncovered the fact that it really needs a back up plan in place.

Unlike an NHRA national event that gets rained out and rescheduled and possibly most of the same people show back up because they are travelers and can maybe account work-wise and leave-wise for this situation, this TOC was a one-time deal for 2009 for alot of people so it should be handled a little differently. I just hope it gets decided soon...

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

everyone should have gotten an e mail yestersday. i got mine in the afternoon and expressed my belief that this should be raced to decide the winner and not split up.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

I too beleive this race needs to be run to determine its champion in each class.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

And in the origional discussion I said

Which is the same way I feel now. All your eggs in one basket is what I dislike about the TOC format. Soooooooooo, I still don't get it?? Calling me out on what???? :confused:

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

For those wanting it raced to conclusion, would it make a difference where the it was scheduled? How about a good central location like Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
Sid Norwood

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Sid,
You must've flunked Geography.
Baton Rouge is not centrally located for IHRA.
Chip

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Chip, I passed Geography and know it is centrally located for me. Since you know Geography and IHRA, where is a centrally located IHRA track for the folks in Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, NC, Minnesota, and New York? Sid

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

i really think there is no fair way to race it off, it is too late for that, too cold, and too far. what if it rained again? i used all of my vacation on raceing. as did most of you, how about no 2009 world champ? split all the money to those who were there, give ALL toc qualifiers a silver card. no compitition #'s 1-10. or keep your # from last year, i don't care, sounds fair to me.
give up the toc format for good, it doesn't work. i did not think nhra's runoff system (countdown to one) was making the best racer the champ and i don't think this does either...oh well, it is what it is.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Ok if some want to race for it and others want to split, then they should pro rate the purse and send split money to the people who can't come back and the rest becomes the purse for the ones who can, i.e. if 10 want to race and 20 don't or can't comeback, then they take 66% of the purse divide it and send it to the people who want a split. The other 10 can travel to where ever they decide to have the re run and race for the other 33%, the trophy and the goldcard. Closest I think you can come to being fair under the current circumstances.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

I did not get an email from IHRA, can somebody please forward it to me. Thank you.
Craig Schultz
schultz.motorsports@yahoo.com

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Craig,
I forwarded my email to you.

Michael Lyons,
I believe that your solution is probably the most fair thus far

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

I have not recieved a email yet also.Could someone please forward one to me.
Thanks
Chuck Siegler
5328 S/G

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Thanks Alex

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Because the NHRA doesn't postpone races indefinitely, or even for 4 months like it looks like this race is going to be postponed. If Pomona rains out, they'll try to run it on consecutive days, and if they get to the point where it is not going to be able to be run during the week, they'll try the very next weekend. Not at the beginning of the following year on the verge of the new season starting. Crowning a 2009 champion 2 months into 2010 completely takes the luster off of it.

I'll stand by my prior comments that trying to run the Sportsman National event PRIOR to the TOC was just plain stupid. I agree with you...they did it to try to entice racers to come down, and make the weekend financially viable. But, the race should NOT have been used to give somebody one last shot to qualify for the TOC in 2009. It should have been run AFTER the 2009 TOC, with the winner of that race and the TOC automatically gaining a berth in the 2010 TOC.

I certainly don't disagree with you there, and I feel bad for all of you that are / were involved with this. My point of view is that at this point, it's an f'ing disaster. Cut your losses, split the purse, and move on in life with a clean slate in 2010. If you run the race in early 2010 (like it looks like they will, IF they run it), you'll eliminate a good portion of the racers simply because they can't return, and this race will favor those racers down south who have been able to race prior to the TOC. Those up in the Northeast will be going down there cold, and will be at a distinct disadvantage (rather than running at the end of the season where EVERYBODY has a large number of runs to draw off of).

So, how validating is it to be crowned the "champion" when not all the contenders participated, and when a good portion of them are coming in rusty due to inactivity?

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

This subject matter should only include those it involves.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

x 2

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

I disagree. In hindsight, should the schedule have been modified? Sure. But accomplishing the event should not have been a problem. We do multiple-race weekends all the time. Again, worst case scenario that was out of anyone's hands for the most part.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that! Don't you dare take away an opportunity for someone to become a World Champion. NOT crowning a World Champion would make the whole thing a joke. Many, many events have been rescheduled in the past, some of them multiple times. Even if it's "just" a Pro-Am race, ANY race that has championship implications (and that's ALL of them) need to be run to completion. I recall a VMP Pro-Am being rescheduled TWICE, and the outcome DID determine a World Champion. (Which, oh BTW, was finally completed Nov 1-3 at Virginia!) Did it suck for those involved having to go back twice? Sure. But it was the right thing to do.

Yes, that may be the case for some, but that's the same thing you deal with in any event, whether it be staying til Wednesday to finish an event (Maple Grove, Pomona), rescheduling (Toronto), staying til Wednesday then moving the rest of eliminations to the next national event (Norwalk -> MIR), multiple rescheduling (VMP), etc. I'm sorry, if you can't or won't return for a free-entry, $10K to win race, there's nothing that can be done.

What? 1) No offense, but when you're racing at this level, two time shots had better be enough to "knock the rust off". You'd think no one could ever win a season opener. :rolleyes: 2) How are last year's runs invalidated?


FWIW, I didn't get an e-mail either.

My opinion only,

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

This subject matter ALMOST involved me too.I'm glad I had a late season slump,so it DOES NOT involve me.Therefore,I will refrain from expressing any of my views.I am still curious to see how all of this shakes out.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

this wasn't a regular event, I would not have attended this race even if it had a perfect weather forecast. Like some other unfortunate racers I too was lured there because of the two bonus races and the bye run. Since the dramatic increase in travel costs since 2005 I generally don't attend any races more than 300 miles from home due to the costs and the possibility of having a rain out and re run. So this was NOT a normal national event. So please stop comparing it to one.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Lyons is right. It was not a normal race. That being said IHRA needs to step up to the plate and make a decision.
I think the race needs to be rescheduled and finished before the 2010 schedule begins. Any other outcome would really make a joke out of it.
One more think: Jason did you qualify? If not you don't get a vote. The only people it matters to is this years contestants.
Hopefully and I really think they will IHRA will learn from this and make the necessary adjustments.
Chip

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

With Skooter's permission I am posting a copy of the letter so that all concerned parties can read it.
I urge all racers who actually qualified for the TOC and showed up to race the TOC at Rockingham to contact Skooter and share your thoughts on a resolution.

To: All IHRA Tournament Of Champions Qualifiers



As we announced at the World Finals, we are contacting all TOC qualifiers via e-mail (or letter) and asking for your feedback and opinions on what you would like to see happen to conclude the World Championship.



Everyone gets a voice in determining the outcome. I would like you to respond to this e-mail ASAP so that we may go through the responses and give you an answer next week. Please send your response directly to me at speaco@feldinc.com. We may need some additional time from the competitors who had to be mailed a letter, but we will go through your requests as soon as they come in.



As you are giving thought to all of this, I want to address some additional items that have come up in various competitor e-mails so that we are all on the same page:





WORLD FINALS WEEKEND IN REVIEW

We are as disappointed as you are to have gone through that weekend and not produce champions and not host the awards ceremony. We have never had the kind of emotional letdown we experienced. We had a great weekend planned and a great awards ceremony and we came back from the event feeling like we just got the news that Christmas had been cancelled. We tried everything in our power to keep pushing and drying and adjusting that weekend. Just the week prior we had run three complete eliminators with just as many cars in the same amount of time during the Summit Team Finals at Rockingham, so honestly we were completely ready for this event and felt like the schedule was very busy, but compared to what we do during Team Finals weekends, this would not be as much of a challenge given the limited field of TOC participants we had to work with. As it turned out, it continued to rain Monday after we cancelled the event, it rained Tuesday and Wednesday and I’m not sure about Thursday but the forecast was bad. We may not have been able to complete the event in 7 days with the weather we had.



Anytime things go wrong someone has to bear the blame. That is part of the business and we accept that aspect. Of the competitors that have contacted us, the vast majority realize we did everything we could, including $6K worth of gas to dry and countless man hours from our crew to try and get the track ready ASAP. Some competitors are mad at us, some are just disappointed. The common theme through the e-mails so far has been to review the options carefully and make the best decision possible realizing that whatever happens, it won’t be to everyone’s liking. That’s why we are asking for your thoughts. We always want to get feedback from those involved in the program before we decide what happens next so please take some time to put some thought into what you would like to see happen.





WHAT WE KNOW FOR SURE AT THIS TIME:

We do know a few things right now. First, whatever we do, we will not be running this race in 2009. Many racers have already expressed concerns about money, time off work and maintenance issues with trying to do anything else in 2009. We realize that the weather issue in Rockingham throws everyone into a bad situation for the remainder of this year. We also realize that a world champion needs to be determined ASAP.





ABOUT THE EVENT

The dynamic of the TOC is that competitors came from all over the map. In fact we had competitors from 28 different states and two provinces in Canada on hand to race for the championship. Never before have there been such a diverse representation racing for the world championship. This is mainly the reason we tried to pack as much racing into one weekend as possible. We have continually done our best to provide value for your tow money on all levels of IHRA competition, because that is what our racers have asked us to do.



Having this many racers from that many different places, it was important for us to have a big weekend of racing on the schedule. Additionally, we knew early on that many of you would have never been to Rockingham before, let alone that elevation, so we wanted to have enough events scheduled to get you used to the track and the conditions to try and eliminate as many disadvantages as possible for those who never raced there before. We were trying to determine the world championship and felt this was an important variable. We also had a huge push from the sportsman competitors who wanted to be able to participate in the World Finals weekend who normally would race the World Finals. We wanted to try and accommodate as many racers as possible, because that is what we always try to do.





TRACK CONDITIONS

We are at a loss as to what changed. Our normal supplies and people were on hand. Our normal routines were followed. We have prepared tracks in much colder conditions, with as much humidity (at times) and low track temps with no issues. Track temp, dew point and humidity were bouncing all over, but we are completely baffled at how a pro mod car could run within .01 of a world record, a pro stock car can reset the ET and MPH world record on Sunday, top sportsman and top dragster can run straight and true and then see a good number of super rod and quick rod cars have problems right after the other 4 second cars get done. Contrary to popular rumors, the track was sprayed less than any other national event because we had just completed the team finals the week prior and were cautious of over spraying. The last 1/8th mile was completely hand scraped prior to the start of the sportsman nationals to be sure the top end of the track was in good condition. Of course, when the troubles began, we tried additional spray and prep methods to try and cure the situation. We altered the run order to try and get a groove, we tried dragging, then no dragging, jet, no jet, etc. When the track temp came around it seemed to help, but the majority of the time there was no sun and we tried a variety of conventional and unconventional ways to get the rod cars to not blow the tires off coming off the stop. There is no logical reason a quick rod car has to abort a run right after Pro cars or Top Sportsman/Top Dragster make 4 second runs right down the groove. The starting line was very good and the track temp was maintained, but when the rod cars came off the stop most of the high hp rod cars were unhappy the entire run as the cars never got planted. Yes all cars were making way more power because of the conditions, but that means the pro cars and TS/TD were making more power as well and running over the same places that the rod cars were struggling with.



We are currently reviewing all our supplies and suppliers to look for any manufacturer that may have changed their manufacturing methods or product ingredients. Our people and procedures were followed, as that was the first thing we looked at. Our suspicion is that something was changed in one of the products we use and we’re going to find out what it was. It still makes no sense as to why certain cars had no issues and others did regardless of the findings. If the track is bad for any reason, common sense dictates that it would be bad for all cars and if a quick rod car had to abort a top sportsman car would certainly have to abort. That was not the case and we need to know why. No one here is burying their head in the sand on this issue, but no one that we’ve talked to so far has any explanation for why rod cars struggled down track while other much faster cars did not.





SUMMIT ALL STARS

After consulting with Summit, the remaining events will be run to conclusion and winners will be crowned. We have been given flexibility as to where these events take place so that the burden of travel is put at a minimum. We are currently calling the remaining competitors to see where would make the most sense from each category. Some classes have not been started, while others are in the finals. We will take it on a class by class basis and come up with a location where each category will complete the competition. We may be finishing these in a variety of different locations based on who is left in competition and where they live. If you are a Summit All Star competitor, expect a phone call from Sherrie Barbour this week.





We believe in sportsman racing on all levels and we believe that with your input we can make the best out of a bad situation. Please give thought to the entire dynamic of the event and your fellow competitors and not just how it effects you in particular when you send in your thoughts.



Thank you for your support of IHRA and the TOC!



Skooter Peaco

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

What bugs me is; the rules state you have to attend four divisional races by years end or your points are zero'd out, BUT you can race only TWO races and be determined a Champion.....this is not working for me.....:confused:

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

wow....first of all, in my opinion, an organization can not have such an event of this magnitude, depend so much on cooperation of weather factors - to be either, all or none. That part is not reasonable. So, lets have our plan, our backup, that backup, and the last resort plan in place early. I know they're are logistics issues, but the racers could probably resolve them....I'll meet someone at a neutral track to decide the race, 3 or 4 weeks later.... Issue a deadline for the racers to decide on their own terms...if you guys dont race by 12/15, then we draw numbers or roll dice. Use the misfortune to help some backwoods track (deciding an event win and ad's for the matchrace) or maybe even an inet vote...lol.
Anyway, gotta have a better plan. As I said before, I dont like the 'in the tower coin flip'. If we gotta flip a coin...fine, lets build the thing up and all make some PR on it....this marketing program of a back alley coin flip, just dont cut it when teams are trying to promote their efforts.....I dont mean to rant, but ****. :confused:

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Sorry, I didn't mean for my post to sound that bad. I know IHRA is trying to do the best job possible. I'm sure the options available were weighed and the best decisions implemented. I know the efforts involved from a racer and organization standpoint, are not always recognized from the spectator seats. The view I am pissed about, are those from the specatator seats, as those are the ones I have to sell to my sponsors.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

I kinda get tired of being negative, however I watched a bit of the pro's on Sunday and Monday and I don't remember many of them getting down in any class. Especially anyone with in the first 5 pairs of cars right after they dragged the track. I personally lost in Top Dragster because the car shook the tires somewhere between 300-500 feet out. SHOOK the tires!?! I was running 34.5x17 T/AD tires on my car with ALL the weight in and a wing and no gear in it, only running 7.40s with a smallblock, well 7.50s when it spun... So I don't know what race they were at but I thought the track sucked at one point or another in ALL classes. There was no rhyme or reason except, if they just drug the track it was gonna be a while before cars got down consistently in either lane...

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Michael,
I actually won 2nd rd although I had to lift at the 1000 ft. Then they decided to rerun the whole rd and I got beat. That Blows.


Rick I think there will be a rule change next year where you have to run a minimum #. It's only fair, and has been suggested.
Chip

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

I keep reading all the talk about Bad Lanes and Track prep. Just a few observations about track prep from a guy that did it for years.. Have you ever noticed How the track crews usually drag a track? Have you ever noticed that when a track goes away it is usually one lane bad or real bad and the other just OK or sometimes good??
When I was a track owner I noticed that my tracks would do stupid things, esp when humidity was a problem. I started looking and trying different preps and traction bite solutions.
I found it was better to drag both lanes the same way. Have you ever noticed they usually drag out on one lane and back on the other. (that is the quickest, easiest way for the tractor driver) Most of the times a driver will drag out on the right lane and come back on the left. That makes the lay of the rubber different. It is just like combing hair one way on one side of your head and then the other way on the other side. You are dealing with a shear condition of the track rubber and the drag rubber. It's just like when a racer rotates his tire because they "Go Away". The sheared rubber takes a set in one direction. You rotate the tires to reverse or scuff the rubber the other direction. I saw that my tracks responded the same way. I started dragging opposite the way that the car tires were pulling the track in each lane. When there was humidity I would cut the VHT with MEK or gas to lay down a thin layer that didn't trap moisture or turn into a goop. I know it was quite a few years ago when I ran my tracks and the VHT of today is not what it was back then, but something I did then may be of interest today.
I didn't post this to be critical of anyone or anybody. I just felt compelled to share my experience..

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Another thing IHRA has to realize is for us guys up north. This is our off season now. My home track is now closesd untill April. I want to freshen up my stuff. I don't know about the rest of you, but my engine guy is always busy. I need to get my stuff to him now so I can have it back in time. Am I supposed to sit and wait until they make up there mind what to do? A reschedule in early 2010 will screw up alot of off season plans for alot of racers.

Craig Schultz

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

send em an email or letter like they're askin you to.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

I did!

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

I rest my case Michael.

And too late, it already is a joke (and no Chip, I did not qualify, so I know my vote doesn't officially count, but being the dumb-***** that I am, I couldn't resist voicing my opinion).

And nobody needs to agree with the dumb-***** comment, as I already know I are one...

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Just to put in my 2 cents, I was in the all-star race and the t.o.c. race and I totally disagree with the whole win a race and your in thing. I dont belive that if you win one race go to rockingham win another one your the champ. I belive it takes hard work and dedacation to be a true champ. this being said I lost first round of the allstar race because of a bad race surface and had to drive my *** off not to wreck or take out the other guy and they knew they had a problem and continued to race HOW FARE IS THAT? The whole year depends on this one race at this one track that you cant get down!!! I dont have any kind of good idea of what to do that would please everyone but hopefully next year they will do something that is more fare to determine a true champoin.

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

Well I know how alot of you feel. I drove 900 miles to get to the ROCK for the TOC. I qualified for the race by coming in 3rd in our Div. I figured I would run the last race for a few hits on the tree. And maybe win a few bucks at it. Well 2nd round in s/r the man I was racing turned hard left into the wall and totaled his car, I was lucky I was in the right lane. Then we had to race 1/8 mile which was fine with me, I have great data there also. The time run they gave us I had to abort car got VERY LOOSE. Well 4th round I watched the pair in front of me take up the whole track, they then shut me off to check the track. A fellow racer came up to me a said DON'T GO DOWN the track is unsafe someone is going to get hurt. Well the starter said the track is SAFE. Well I went about 300 feet and put the car side ways had to lift and lost. When I got back to my trailer the racer who went down before me was waiting to see what happened to me, he had the same deal so we went to the tower to talk to Scooter. Scooter said he thinks the track was unsafe and he will re-run us in the morning. Latter that nite I was called back to the tower and was told I can't re-run the track prep guy said he thinks the track was ok untill my car went down then it was unsafe. The racer that beat me told me maybe he is a better driver than me maybe, and maybe he has a better car than me maybe but we will never know because we NEVER had a fair race. The track was fine in the begining the it went away and never came back. How should we finish this thing, I really don't know but all I know is my motorhome is in storage, all the cars are torn down, motors and trans are sent out. And 900 miles away from Rockingham and never ran for the TOC. Hope eveyone has a safe off season and happy holidays.
Chuck Siegler
5328 S/R
5328 Q/R

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

AMEN Brother

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

It is my understanding the decision will be announced next Monday. Sid

Re: IHRA tournament of Champions
 

i got my e mail this morning regarding the toc this morning. doesnt seem like a bad result to me