Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

The inequity is in first or worst. The current rules don't allow for a worst concerning a red light (unless the quicker car leaves before the tree is activated), therefore the slower dial-in car is at a disadvantage at the tree.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

You can just as easily make the case that the faster car does not get a clean tree, and has to wait on the line longer, therefore the faster car is at a disadvantage at the tree.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

:o Um, me, I'm afraid... More than once I've been backing into guys at the stripe, get my timeslip, and discover they were red. Granted it's only been at one certain track where the win lights are hard to see, and 1/8th mile racing, where you don't have all day to look around while you're motoring down the track. Good practice anyway... right? ;)

As for red lights on the scoreboard, a number of southern tracks actually have a row of colored lights on the scoreboard... red for red light, yellow for a breakout, blue for who got there first, green for a win. (May have mixed some of them up... all I remember is thinking, "Dang, there were a whole bunch of lights on my scoreboard, I must've won!" only to find out I 'got there first' and 'broke out'.)


This topic got completely away from the original poster's question in regard to how the tree is blinded anyway. The first or worst red light deal is going to be rehashed a million times this winter. No one of one mindset is going to change one of the opposing view.

Now, RE: tree blinders... I don't even notice. We were at Bristol for the World Footbrake Challenge, and about 3rd round, my buddy says, "Man! I just can't get a handle on the tree. There's no blinder." 'What are you talking about? Yes there is!' "NO, there's NOT!"... I go up for the next round... huh! No blinder. I don't know if I'm 1) that focused or 2) that unobservant. (See Win Lights, above) ;)

Work on being 1) that focused or 2) that unobservant. ;)

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Alan, you are correct. The slower class drivers don't have to deal with that, if they did they might have a different take on it. Besides the "dirty" tree, the other car leaving is a distraction. I'm about in the middle, I have to give some one second + spots, and get some one second + spots from the hood scoop SS cars. I much prefer leaving first so I have no distractions from the other side of the tree (especially at night) or the other car leaving. I now use a blinder to block the other side of the tree, but the other car moving still bothers me. Maybe the slow guys don't have to deal with that, so only see their side of the deal. I talked to Gary Stinnett <SP?> at Ennis about him taking his blinders back off, and he said the same things about the other car leaving while watching your own side of the tree. I feel like the first/worst rule balances it out a little. Even though it takes away any control of the finish line, I like to leave first without the distractions. Change that rule, and I will REALLY like leaving first. :D

__________________________________________________ _____
Michael Beard said: Um, me, I'm afraid... More than once I've been backing into guys at the stripe, get my timeslip, and discover they were red. Granted it's only been at one certain track where the win lights are hard to see, and 1/8th mile racing, where you don't have all day to look around while you're motoring down the track. Good practice anyway... right?

Since going to blinders I have done that. More than one track. After doing that a couple fo times I've started trying to remember to check the score board for a win light when the front end comes back down, so maybe I will look a little less silly. Only a little less.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

If your contentration is so bad that you need a "clean" tree then you can build a slower car !!
Or they can put blinders the tree......
The "clean tree" BS is so lame...........you need to work on your concentration !!!

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

The fact is, you cannot "legislate" rules to give an advantage to this car, or that car. The reason is, there is no way to quantify the advantage/disadvantage, so how do you know when it is "enough"????

It's easy to say, "Leaving on a clean tree is an advantage," and that may be true, but how about driving the stripe from behind, or owning a fast car that is unaffected by minor weather/wind changes that affect a slow car a lot, making it hard to dial in changing conditions; fast cars spin the tires; slow cars are usually inconsistent...
There is no end to this stuff.... and, trying to level the playing field by giving out advantages, is a lost cause; you'll never get it right.

A worse red light rule gives the advantage to NOBODY.

That's a big improvement over what we have now, it would seem to me.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

The thread is a load of ****.Over 50 posts for a non issue.It's quite simple,you go green and race to the end.You go red and you lose.It's a 50/50 deal in the end on a red light.We have way more important issues of inequities in S/SS racing.Top of the list is PAYOUTS.Nobody is getting any momentum out of wanting better payouts down the line.A bracket racer gets more mileage out of crying for social justice for the "poor" slow guys who get the 1st chance to go red.
Someone start a pole to see how M cars and down feel we need a bracket racer to determine if the rule should be changed.
I can't wait to see what Crusader Rabbit's next campaign will be.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Ed,
When you say, "A bracket racer gets more mileage out of crying for social justice for the "poor" slow guys who get the 1st chance to go red." you prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you have NO CLUE what this is all about.

You prove it by completely ignoring the real point of all this; it's NOT that the slower car has the first chance to go red; it's that if they DO, they have taken away the other car's chance to go red.

If you think that's fair, then there's no hope that you'll ever understand this.

I'd rather see a poll, than a "pole"... A pole wouldn't do much good, here...

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Ed ,The fact of the matter is changes to the basic timing system affect way more than S/SS cars.
The 5 amber tree was changed to three, because supposedly it sped up the completion of National event on schedule. You notice it is now standard across the country.
Myself, I liked the 5 amber tree back in the 80's, with a stick shift FWD car. I had to learn to deal with the 3 amber deal.
NHRA and IHRA are going to do whatever they think is right for the sport in the long run, no matter what a couple of part time Stocker racers like you and I, think about it.
If the first red light loser becomes the worst r/l loser some time in the future, you 'll just have to deal with that too.
If you go red and then are awarded a win slip, the security folks will probably have to come and drag you back to the lanes for the next round, right?

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Mark.I'm not disputing the fact it affects everyone.But our friend Mr Dedman should be on the bracket racing section flapping his gums,not here where he has no dog in the fight.I'm sure NHRA hasn't given it a thought.Changes happen almost always by them listening to a small minority and thinking that something has to be done.Squeaky Wheel Syndrome. If the rule was changed I would race by the rules in force and happily take the win slip.But I'm comfortable with the rule as it is.I'm not comfortable with a lot of other procedues we race under,for example,payouts
and inconsistant rule interpretations form div to div.(AKA Eastcoast/West coast rule book.See my point Mark?
Remember the Dirty,Cheating, Deep Stagers controversy?

Mr Dedman,you know what you can do with that "pole".

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Were the rules being written today, for the first time, with the current technology that is available, there is simply no way… NO WAY… this “first red light” thing would have even been considered.

Bob Glidden and Lee Sheppard never had to deal with this. Don Garlits and Joe Amato never had to deal with this. All of these people were always presented with an EQUAL opportunity at the tree.

Cutting a light….tearing down the tree…is a FUNDAMENTAL of this sport. That some races are not subjected to this same, basic standard, is simply unimaginable.

The chorus of “…been that way since day one and it should not be changed…” is just about as twisted as saying that slavery, since it was legal, should still be allowed.

NHRA and IHRA…..if you are reading this, go to a “worst” red light system now. Do not take a survey. Do not ask of people’s opinions. Do not announce when you are going to start doing it. You know you have the software in place to do this, so just do it.

All I ask, is that when you start doing it, publish the complaints, anonymously, of the few that will find this unfair: THAT will make for some humorous entertainment.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Ed said, Mr Dedman,you know what you can do with that "pole".

OK, Ed; it was your idea, not mine...

Bend over... :)

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

The lame BS arguments abound here, Mr. Kelley. I never claimed to be a great driver. I certainly need to work on my concentration.

I can just as easily say if you're so worried about going red first, you need to build a faster car.

See how the smart *** comments work? I can sling them all day with the best of them.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

But, Alan; with the worse red light system, there would no longer be a reason to build a different car, just to get away from the built-in inequity of this one.

That's the point...

Are you still working on finding the "other side of that coin"??? Or, have you given up?

It's hard to defend the indefensible...

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Bill, it doesn't matter what anyone says. You want the rule changed, and nothing else will satisfy you.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

I personally do not think that putting blinders on the last two lights will help anyone win races. I have never used a blinder and probably wont ( never say never), however, a lot of people do and are successful with them. As far as the "red light" rule it works fine like it is, like someone said, " I never complain about losing when I redlight". We have a great system that has worked for many years and they have made effective changes like going from five ambers to three and giving us reaction times, which they used to not do. Usually if someone is struggling with reaction times its not the trees fault. I do agree that a background of some sort would be helpful if the sunlight is facing you, at least large enough to cover the back of the tree, allowing you to get a good look at all of the ambers without the sun interfering.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

"We have a great system that has worked for many years and they have made effective changes like going from five ambers to three and giving us reaction times, which they used to not do."


Yes we do, Kevin. Before R/T's we didn't know how much we red lit by , or whether the second car left early or not. The point is, now we do. We already have that info in the computer and on the time slip, so why not take the final step and make the worse red lighter the loser? We have the worse breakout losing, no matter who crosses the finish line first, so why not have the worse red lighter lose , no matter who crosses the starting line first?
I'm still waiting for a convincing argument.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Kevin Stubbs said, "We have a great system that has worked for many years"

I remember his record-holding A/SA 454 Chevelle...

Great car!!!

No wonder he likes that "First red light" rule... :)

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Alan said, "Bill, it doesn't matter what anyone says. You want the rule changed, and nothing else will satisfy you."

If anyone including you, Alan, can show me the downside to changing this rule, I will never say another word about it. So far, I have asked you so tell me a legitimate, logical reason why it should not be changed, and you have responded in several different ways, but never with the one that proves that this change will be a mistake.

I have asked you on several occasions, to answer the question of "where in the other side of the coin" (regarding the reciprocity involved in a race between a W/SA car and a AA/SA car in which the W car redlights first, removing the AA car from any redlight jeopardy,) but there's no way to turn that around, with the system we have.

And, though that may be an extreme example, it is real, and is an unnecessary set of circumstances that wouldn't happen, with the worse red light system.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, and let it go. I'm pretty sure that because it would cost NHRA some money to implement, and that it will never generate any revenue at all for them, that, given the financial climate in Glendoa, it will not happen anytime soon, if ever.

It's just an anomaly that "slipped through the cracks" for a lot of years...

Thanks for listening.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Bill,

I'm sorry that it took me so long to chime in on this thread (especially once Mr Ed from New Joisey had to remind us about a thread spoken about earlier this year)? I agreed with you then, and I agree with you now...and btw, it didn't take me long to see that what you spoke of makes since, but neither of those Ed's or Alan want to see the logic of yours and Marks logistics, so what can we say??? By the way Mr. Ed (F that is), I DO RACE STOCK, I DO HAVE A CAR, AND THUS I DO HAVE A DOG IN THIS FIGHT, SO THERE!!! DON'T BELIEVE ME, CHECK OUT DRAG RACE CENTRAL (FROM LAST WEEK)!!!

Alan brought up some good points about other issues facing our classes, but as someone else stated earlier, they had nothing to do with the title of this thread "QUESTIONS CONCERNING CHRISTMAS TREE"!

Bill, I know that it's likely hopeless that logic will prevail in this case, but I thought I was hopeless in getting my non-turboed V6 taken out of a class that favored turbo-charged 2.2 Mopars, Quad4 Oldsmobiles, and Aluminum headed V6's (when mine is cast-iron). After years of sending requests to Glendora, and years of them seeing me at the bottom of all the qualifying list, they finally placed my car where it belongs, and last weekends qualifying list (107th out of 122 cars), is proof that what's fair for the goose can be fair for the gander. Let's not give up hope just yet....

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

What is it?A chihwawa?At least you race S/SS.I feel the rule has been in effect all this time and I have no problem with it.
I see you were in Vegas and was a contributor to the payees.Coulda taken that $170 or so and went to one of the casinos and thrown it down on red or black.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

ANOTHER RIPOFF !!!

Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed-----Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed
7511 Ted Seipel .......... 7312 George Stassi
E1 -0.005 11.325 114.31 ...... ****WINNER**** -0.032 10.116 130.42
SS/KA Dial: 11.31 (+/-): 0.015 ...... SS/HA Dial: 10.01 (+/-): 0.106
Qualified: #64 11.283 -0.267 ..... #30 10.012 -0.888

Ouch! Seipel goes red by -0.005 to give the win to Stassi.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Rip off???????? You're nuts.Must be something in the air in the Texas,Arkansas area.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

If that had been a breakout instead of a red light (with those numbers), the other guy would have won.

Tell me, Ed, why there should be this opposite result for what is basically the same situation?

Show me some of that NEW YAWK "logic" that will explain away this totally different result from one instance wherein the worse infraction gets the loss (breakout), but in the other (first red light) , the worse infraction gets the win.

That's with today's antiquated rules....

I need to hear the NEW YAWK logic of that to understand your comment about Texas/Arkansas...

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

{why there should be this opposite result for what is basically the same situation?}

If you're going to use this logic, do some further analysis adding margin of victory into the equation:

In a double breakout situation was the racer further under his dial and also through the finish line first?
If so the racer broke out first AND broke out by more.
Therefore first and worst.

In the races I have lost on a double breakout I have taken the stripe :cool:

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Lets look at the FACTS; If you are complaining about this rule then, therefore, you must be loosing enough races by redlight to do so, right? Isnt that why you are arguing this point? If so, then you are redlighting too much! Look and see how many times you have lost in a year by redlight and ask yourself if the rule was different, would I have won? If you have to ask yourself that, its too many times. If you are loosing enough races to want this rule changed then you need to fix your problem. There is your legitimate argument.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

What K Stubbs said,for starters.If enough S/SS racers wanted the rule changed they would flood NHRA with requests,accompanied by their S/SS comp. number.That would disqualify non competitors and
wannabes.
You Live in Ark. and Mr Kelly lives in Texas,get the connection?You both seem to be obsessive/compulsive on this matter.Maybe some more time at the senior center will cure that.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

You don't have a legitimate reason not to change it and make it right so you mount a personal attack ???
So...so Nu Joisy......

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Funny you should complain about a personal attack. :rolleyes:

The personal attack doesn't bother me at all, I can take it. Hell, like I said, I've never claimed to be a great driver. The hypocrisy is hilarious though. Thanks for the laugh. :cool:

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

No, Kevin, I have never lost a race due to this first red light rule.

Believe it or not, there are people in this world who have reasons for wanting things that are not necessarily beneficial to THEM. Because this rule potentially affects every handicap race that's run (every round), the number of people over the last 36 years who have lost races because they were the first to leave (something they had no control over), and red lighted, thereby depriving the second car to leave of HIS chance to red light, must be staggering. This can happen to an O/SA car racing a N/SA, as easily as it can an A/SA car running against a B/SA car.

In no way, is it the playground of the V/SA and W/SA cars; nobody (except the AA cars) is exempt.

AND, WHEN AND IF it ever gets into usage, (which I doubt), all it will do to the AA cars is put them in the same red light jeopardy that the rest of the cars have always been in. That is, they will now have a chance to red light (even though the slower car alreday bulbed), whereas, as things stand now, the only way they're EVER in redlight jeopardy, is if the first car to leave goes green.... and, they're ALWAYS the second to leave.

I have been a fan of drag racing since 1955, and it took me until about 2004, and to have some guy a lot smarter than I was, (and, that's not hard at all...) to explain this worse red light system to me, before I could grasp the significance of it. It took me awhile (weeks) to really understand exactly what was going on. I was so used to it being the way it was, I just wasn't equipped to really absorb what it all meant... but after a (long) while, I did have the light above my head tun on....

I love drag racing; always have.... and this FIRST red light system has been a carbunkle on the playing field, in my perception, anyway, ever since I finally "got it", after years and years of accepting it the way it was....

I'd like to see it fixed for everybody's benefit.... not just mine. I don't race that much....

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Bill, once again, it is your perception. Further you want it "fixed for everybody's benefit", but you absolutely and adamantly refuse to consider that others do not want it "fixed" at all, and not all of them drive faster cars, either.

The point was made earlier that if it was a really big deal, and any problem at all for that matter, to the guys running slower cars, they'd have all written letters to NHRA by now. Evidently they have not. Has another "light bulb" come on in your head yet?

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

It came to him in a dream.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Good point Alan, I do not think enough people have a problem with this to get it changed, however, the fact that I live in Arkansas must mean something. Ed, im 37 I dont think I will be in any senior citizen hangouts just yet.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Mr Ed, wow....you've sunk to a new low by insulting my car by calling it a Chihwawa? I hope I get to race you someday, because I'll fondly remember a stocker racer who clicked his car at the 850ft-950ft mark of Bandimere Speedway (circa Mile Highs of '98), and felt he could insult me by coasting across the finish line ahead of me to take the win in the first rnd of elims. I didn't lift, and reeled him back in...I and the fans who watched the whole thing on the former "Winston Vision" screen, witnessed my nipping him accross the stripe, by .003!!! That could be you next time, so let me ask you Mr. Ed...DO YOU WANT TO BE NEXT??? I recall another time people took a swipe at me I won the 1981 Division V Street Eliminator Championship, in a car that makes my current car look like a show car! More recently, how about my false starting in the quarter-finals of the 2007 LODRS D-7 #2 race to Wes McCann and wasting a perfect 15.940 run on a -.013 rt., only to re-race him again two weeks later, and put a package on him that made my "Chihwawa" a 1st rnd winner in a rematch, by .006!!! Given your car hardly has a monster V8 in it, you have "NERVE" calling my car a "CHIHWAWA"!!! Hopefully GOD will smile on my finances in such a way that I'll be able to travel out there to E-TOWN, or to Pa., and play with you D-1 folks....I must say though, I'll really be hoping to line up my little doggie next to your Gremlin and we'll just see who has the biggest bite to follow their bark!!?? I hope to come out there, because knowing you as I do, you'd probably freak-out over having to travel more than 300 miles (one way) to go to a season of drag races---you're safe in D-1!!!

As far as this thread is concerned, although I'm ok too with the way things are, that still doesn't make them right, and what's fair for the Hare (the 2nd car to leave in any kind of handicapped race), should be fair for the Tortoise as well. However, since it likely won't be anytime soon, I'll just revert back to that which produced my '81 Championship...bracket racing to hone up my finish line skills, because as you saw in rnd 1 last week, I didn't "contribute to the payees" due to my starting line performance, it was crossing the line .029 too quickly. I can fix that, and 2010 is the year I plan on doing such!!!

Thanks Ed, you've now given me the appetite of a shark on a feeding frenzy, and I intend on satisfying that hunger!!!

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

I'm sorry for calling your car a chihwawa.It's really a Shi Tsu.I could care less about your heroic racing exploits in this thread.But if you must.I qualified for 11 straight NED Div 1 bracket finals,when you actually had to drive your car.Raceway Park Pro ET Champion 1984,top 10 11 times.That and $2 gets me on the NYC transit train for a ride.
God has nothing to do with coming East.Save your pennies and maybe you'll be able to make the trip.Be sure to save up enough for the return trip.
And finally grow up.Judging by your post you're either drunk or a big baby with very thin skin.
Cheers and a big woof woof to you.

PS: you were still a contributor.You sucked at the stripe.That's my biggest problem,making it close enough to win.I'm working on it.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

As long as you keep far away from Conway Ark. and Tightwad Tx. you should be good to go for many years.Be careful when near Tempe Az.I hear there's a lot of thin skin syndrome appearing in the area.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Alan,

Many people who race don't comprehend the way this rule plays favorites, so they don't complain. They accept it because they've never known anything else; it's the "norm," and it's "the way it's always been."
That alone, gives it tremendous inertia and acceptance, but when you closely examine what it actually DOES, it's not a good thing. What's good about giving the faster car a free ride to the next round, and removing them from red light jeopardy just because the first car (which had no choice, but to leave first, when he pulled up to stage) left a thousandth (or more) too soon?????????

Your contention would make sense (that everybody would be complaining, writing letters to NHRA, etc.), if everybody understood, IN DEPTH, how this FIRST RED LIGHT system works, but, they don't. I know I didn't, for years and years...

Throughout this discussion, I have asked you pointed questions that you have ignored, choosing, instead, to comment on things that are completely removed from the question at hand. You seem to like to divert attention away from questions I have asked you by commenting on things that have nothing to do with a worse red light rule; for instance:

Alan said,

1. "How about we change the rules so that if the fast car spins, you have to rerun the race? Or, if the track is marginal, the slower car has to put WD-40 all over his slicks?"

If that was an attempt at humor, it was lost on me....


2. "It's not a "software problem", it's a "problem" in YOUR perception."


And, I am responding:
"No, the reality is, it is what it is, regardless of my opinion about it. And, that you don't see a system that rewards a percentage of the cars at the expense of others, as a problem, then I think that that situation may be responsible for the over-long discussion we've had, here."

Alan said,
3. ""Ask Fred Suiter, I pulled up and told him he ran a great race and he kicked my red lighting ***. I took my loss like a man, and like a racer, and tried to do better the next time."

If that had been a heads-up race, I'd commend you on your great attitude and exemplary sportsmanship!

But, if it was a handicapped race in which you had to leave before him, and thereby deprive him of his own red-light jeopardy by bulbing FIRST, then I'd say you were screwed by the system, unnecessarily. What if he had bulbed worse than you? Don't you think you deserved to win that round, just as if you had broken out less than him, on the big end???

Would you like to return to "The first car to break out loses"??? It was that way, for awhile, and if everybody thought like you do, it would STILL be that way. No difference in a red light and a breakout; they're both just cases of poor judgment placing your car at the wrong place at the wrong time. Samo/Samo...



I wrote,
"Hope you'll think about this, and if you can think of any rational, logical, legitimate, reason that it wouldn't be an improvement in the "level playing field" aspect of handicapped drag racing. please tell me; I'm all ears!!!

The silence was deafening....



I wrote, "What doesn't "work" about the current system is, that it prevents EQUALred light "jeopardy." The second car to leave is no longer in jeopardy of a red light, if the first car bulbs. Where is the other side of that coin???

You never answered, I assume, because there is no "other side".... It's ALWAYS beneficial to the second car to leave. Always...

4. You also wrote, "Beware the law of unintended consequences."

But, even after I asked just what might be even ONE of these "unintended consequences," you never even attempted to answer the question. I'm still wondering what one might be.... if, in fact, there could be any.


I wrote:

"For example, you don't need a statistical analysis to conclude that Ellis Buth's W/SA wagon is on the wrong end of this system (virtually, always leaving first), or that the new, 9-second Mustangs are on the "right" end of it.

The Mustangs enjoy an immunity from red lights IF their opponent bulbs.
Ellis's Pinto NEVER enjoys such an advantage in handicapped racing.

I asked, "Where is the other side of that coin" relative to the fact that the quicker car sometimes enjoys this advantage, but there is none.
THAT is an "inexcusable inequity," in my book, because it is unnecessary, now, and accomplishes nothing.

Can you show me the other side of that coin?


5. You wrote,"Again, you ignore the law of unintended consequences simply because it is easy, convenient, and suits your agenda"

No, Alan, I ignore it because I can't think of a single thing that could result from a worse red light rule change that would qualify as a (negative) unintended consequence. Apparently, you can't, either...


If you CAN think of one, even at this late date, I would be VERY INTERESTED in hearing what it might be.. Enlighten me....


6. At some point, you wrote, "And then neither will see the red light, because the tree is behind them, because both cars have launched and then the computer makes up its mind after the fact. MAYBE one or both drivers will see a win light come on, or maybe they won't."

And, this will affect the race how??? I asked at the time, but, you never responded.....


In all your verbiage, you still have not come up with one single reason NOT to change it... none. Even YOU can't logically defend keeping this lopsided rule in effect.


7. Finally, you wrote, "Bill, it doesn't matter what anyone says. You want the rule changed, and nothing else will satisfy you."

Au contraire, mon ami.... if ANYBODY can show me that this rule change is a bad idea, will change racing for the worse, or, will have dire, "unintended consequences," I will clam up like a mobster in front of a Senate, organized crime investigating committee, and apologize for wasting everybodys' time!

I will!!!

But, so far, that hasn't happened.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

For several years I have bitched about the 1st redlight rule...off course nobody cared .
If I win a race I want it to be because I earned it....not because of an unfair rule that gives
faster cars an advantage!!! At a Local race it came down to me in my 4cyl Tbird Stocker & a 9 sec full electronics car for the top elim spot. He rolled thru the lights after staging...they told me you win...I told them
Bull****...re-stage us I want to earn this.. we restaged & I won on my merit... I am more proud of that trophy than I am of my wallys. Fix an unfair advantage....not first red ....make it worst red.

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

Thanks for that little vignette, Bushwhacker; you, sir, are a true sportsman... I'd be proud of that trophy, too!!!

Re: questions concerning christmas tree
 

..and that's the way sportsman racing SHOULD be...