Re: Black Tuesday?
 

It would be nice to be able to set records on the east coast in good air without hitting the 1.40 mark, or having to worry about showing up at a national event and not being able to race for class or trying to get the pole and a first round bye, because you don't want HP. But there is the other side of the guy that has no money that wants to race with us but now can't run the index. It's a delicate matter. I would rather the AFHS trigger change and leave the index's alone.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Come on , Charlie
You ran .27 under at Pomona.

Take a look at this page, post 5027.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...stock&page=252

170 S/S'ers trying to get into 31 spots. I'm sure there were a few future World Champions on the DNQ list that day. They didn't quit.

I ran the 1978 Orlando points meet ,in June of that year. The only two cars that ran under the index that weekend were myself and the runner-up ,in the final round. Those other guys didn't quit. Woodro Josey was one of them.

I can remember driving to Gainesville (1000 miles) and being second alternate in a 32 car field. I didn't quit then, either.

If you drop out now , you're never going to get that Wally, that doesn't ever go to quitters.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

I guess I fail to follow your logic. Let's say they do lower the indexes by 3 tenths. Then next year at Indy somebody qualifies 140th (dead last) at -0.06. Then he goes to the very next national event and wins it. What's changed? (Besides the fields being smaller.) Would you want to lower the indexes another 3 tenths???


-Toby

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Toby, You know I usually want to do what's best for the sport, but you're asking ME that question? LOL

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Yes, I'm sure after the indexes are lowered the contingency payouts will go up immediately. They might even give us $500 for a win sticker and $300 for a runner up sticker. :rolls eyes:


-Toby

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Now you're starting to understand the logic. I, for one, am just happy with a win. If I raced for the money, I wouldn't race.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Why stop at .8? Why don't we just lower them 1.2 seconds?


-Toby

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Bottom line, lowering the indexes only benefit the people that can run way under either due to them being underfactored or illegal. Adjusting the trigger will offset the factoring in a positive manner. Personally, I do not understand why all you fast guys are not petitioning for an elimination of the trigger. Then it would be fun again.

Do you actually think that the contincency payouts are directly related to the lowering of the indexes, give me a break, they are related to NHRA's percentage cut.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

My comments are only in regard to Super Stock.

Just think it is crazy to have cars running 1.4 and more under the index. Why do we have an index if they are that far from what we are able to run. I don't think there should be such a difference between the index and the car's actual ET potential.

Why do we need the index to be so soft? New racers joining the class? How many new racers have you seen that don't run well under the current numbers? Not many. Most of the new guys come in with top notch equipment and kick all our butts. Dad puts them in a modified car and it is off to the races. No worry about running the number there. If anything it is some of the seasoned racers who chose to run where they are because they can without any detriment. Actually it can be an advantage since you don't have to push your equipment. Not a bad idea but it gets back to the bracket racing thing. No incentive to go fast.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

In 2009 we attended several Div. 7 and Div 6 races where there was only around 20 or less in both stock and superstock including our 2 or 3 cars! In Medford I believe out of around 20 stocker there were 4 or 5 less than or around .3 under! The first three years my kids and I raced , I was never .3 under or more. Neither of my kids cars were ever either! Not everybody comes from a rich family or has a rich experienced racer for a dad. Some people pick a car to race because that is what they own and can afford not because of where it hits on HP factor. There are plenty of classes for the rich and elite..... why make stock/superstock fall in that group! If the indexs were much faster we would of never have persisted long enough to stay in stock!!
If attendance falls even another 20 or 25%... I don't think there will be stock or superstock in another 4 or 5 years! Then what is everybody going to do with their $20,000 Engines/$7,000 Transmissions... put them in Sportsman Bracket Cars?

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Somebody said if you run way under it must be under factored or illegal, That's B..LSH.T, Anybody should be able to build a superstock or stocker that runs 8 tens to 1.00 under with the current rules, if you can't than these classes aren't for you!!!!!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

WOW thats alot of reading and opinions, the unfortunate part is not one of those opinions matters to the powers that be.I personally believe that changing index's has more to do with the lack of employee's at 91741 than you guy's think, extra work means more $ that they have to pay somebody. it doesn't make any difference whether they change the indexe's .3th's. the racer's that are fast now are going to be fast tomorow no matter what year it is. there is nothing at all wrong with the racer's who want to sandbag maybe they can't afford to spend the money that some people spend AND THEN COME'S THE RACER WITH THE KNOWLEDGE TO BE ABLE TO DO ALL HIS OWN STUFF and he works and test all the time on his race car they shouldn't be punished either. whether it's your hand's or your wallet that made that combo 1.3+ under it doesn't matter to me. let's just race sandbaggin or not if we all put as much effort into are race car's as we did complaining about the powers that be we would probably find at least another tenth. that's what i was doing yesterday! as far as stocker's running s/s get grade point's or QUIT CRYING WHO CARES WERE ALL EQAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

SEAN does spending my hard earned money on new heads from the sorensons bros. count as performance parts ??

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

You have a great point. At the PRI show nhra only had 4 people there Bruce was not there, nor was Jim Collins from Division 2. nhra seems to have screwed up their own afhs this year was it because of mathematical problems. Is it because they are cutting back?
If it is our days are numbered. Notice no class racing at all in Gainesville A race that has been important to stock and superstock racers for years. Is this a trail run for what is in the future?
Why does anyone want to see the index's hit? So they can go faster and still protect their index? Or to get rid of some of the competition? I recently took the tenth and a half hit, So I'll have to work a little harder if I want to be number 1. Other than that it doesn't mean a hill of beans. A car that can run 1.40 under is going to qualify with a 1.25 under anywhere just not as high on the ladder.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

The coin always have 2 sides,what will drive some away might attract others..these classes could become more popular amongs racers in other categorys...good or bad..... I think it's a good move..but are a little afraid that those who has been good protecting there combos may have a good headstart that will be good for a couple of years if "the powers" dont get it right with the HPchanges before this new numbers comes into effect...well..if they do!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

[QUOTE=novassdude;
I really hope that my new motor will run the new index since I followed the rules and built a stock motor per the rules.[/QUOTE]


Your probably the only one left on the planet who does......lol

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

OK, I brought up this point on Larry Hill's thread "HP for Christmas. Over the last few years we've had most of the now "killer combos" either "physically enhanced"(different carbs, alum. heads, optional cams,etc.), "competitively enhanced"(HP give back), "chemically enhanced"(well you know but tech doesn't) or just plain "built enhanced and blessed"(CJs, Challenger Drag Packs) and they can all run a week under and get themselves "beat up" with horsepower by the AHFS!
So f**king what! I wasn't going to "whine" but I can't bite my tongue anymore.
Ten years ago I could show up at an NHRA event and be a top 10 qualifier anywhere (but Indy). Now I go to one and I can't even make the top half of the field. Now I haven't gotten any stupider (maybe) and my car is going faster so what happened? I've always called what happened "The ebb and flow of Stock Eliminator". Nothing that NHRA has handed out over the last few years has benefitted my combo AT ALL.
Where I'm going with this is that if the NHRA is going to change the way that it is going to "trigger" HP hits and stiffen the indexes then I believe that it's time for them to either "selectively" change the indexes or start from scratch and review the HP ratings of ALL combos based on some (I don't know what) standard! Line us all up once and leave us alone for the next 10 years!
NHRA has either "enhanced"or "refactored" or "defactored" or just plain"f**ked up" too many times in the recent past and if they want to make a change then I feel that they should either start from scratch with the indexes or the HP ratings. I'm pretty sure that they won't take on the HP ratings so why not the indexes?

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Why of course it does Larry.... and money well spent!

Sean

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Bryan,

Did you just call me crazy? Was it crazy = good or just crazy = nuts. Everybody who runs Stock or Super Stock is probably a little of both.

Merry Christmas, hope to see you guys again before so long.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

So basically in 2010 permanent hits would be .05 faster than in 2009? i.e. Caro's -1.41 run at Indy that hit SS/BM .15, wouldn't automatically hit it .15 in 2010? If so, then that ain't right. It should still be 1.40 or 1.10 less the three tenths.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

While I think most, if not everyone, can agree that the Indexes are soft, I don't know if an across-the-board three tenths is fair either. 9.30 SS/AM is already a fairly stiff Index. So is 9.60 for a SS/AH. Neither class, in normal air (not couting super condition races like Boise, Atco, Dutch Classic, etc) wouldn't even come close to seeing a top 10 qualifying spot. It would take time and effort (maybe and probably too much time and effort on NHRA's part) to analyze all the classes, see which classes have been qualifying near the top the most, and adjust from there. Meaning, for example, take the 10 or whatever classes that, on average, take the majority of the top 10-20 qualifying spots (just as an example, B/SA, C/SA, J/SA, etc), and adjust them three tenths. Maybe adjust some classes .25, some classes .20, etc. The only exception(s) would be one "odd" car in a class. Meaning, if it was me, in a rare, one-of-a-kind combination car that qualifies #1 several times in, say, R/SA, just hit me with HP, as I would not be an indication that R/SA, as a whole class, is soft, if no other R/SA's anywhere qualified in the top 10 at any race. Or, if one class is at the top a lot, but most or all the cars in that class run the same combination (just as an example, 396/375 Camaro in B, 305 GM in K/SA, etc). If all the cars in the top spots, in that "fast" class, are the same engine and few or no other combinations in that class are near the top, adjust that single engine, rather then penalizing the whole class that may have combinations that can not qualify near the top. Again though, it would be a lot of work to do all that. Billy, this might have been where you were going with your "selective Index change".

There are just so many what-if's with adjusting Indexes and triggers, and so many differing opinions (as have been stated already in this thread) on what NHRA will/should do. If you were to lower the Indexes and leave the -1.15 and -1.40 triggers in place, the soft combos can run even more rampant with less fear of getting hit, as what was -1.40 before would be -1.60 under the old Index (if they reduce the Indexes two tenths), and cars can run just as fast, or faster than before with no penalty. The good side is, it could encourage more all-out racing in Class and less sandbagging. If you lower the Indexes and triggers equally (Indexes down two tenths, and triggers to -.95 and -1.20), then you have the same problem as now, sandbagging and manipulating the the AHFS. I'm not one to question or complain about a problem or perceived problem unless I have an opinion or answer on how to fix it, but I don't really see any glaring, obvious fix to this problem, if it is indeed a problem at all, that would be the most fair to the majority of racers.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

You need to reread the post !! The guy is "ONE SECOND SLOWER THAN THE SLOWEST QUALIFIER"
He does NOT race because he didn't qualify at the US NATIONALS......:-)

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Buff, I feel that the majority of racers probably feel the same way you do. That being said, then NHRA should either poll all of its racers, leave the program alone, or REALLY shake the cage. All they are doing now is catering to a very few.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

John - YOU have to reread the post because Mark had the guy as QUALIFYING last. The last time I looked, if you qualify, you're in!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

WRONG......I COPIED WHAT MARK WROTE....

"Think about this. A guy can go to Indy and be 180th qualifier (dead last) @ .06 under. He's a full second away from the slowest qualifier."

THEY DON'T QUALIFY 180 CARS...........HE IS A FULL SECOND SLOWER THAN THE SLOWEST QUALIFIER.
HE DID NOT QUALIFY !!!!
ONLY 128 CARS MAKE THE CUT........

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Just a question here.....What ever happened to.....you win class and you got to play.....style of racing? If you lost out in class you went home. End of the qualifying B.S. You had to be BAD and a good driver to win class. Less cars in the eliminator so NHRA could finish the race earlier like they want. NHRA could use the AHFS after each NATIONAL EVENT and by 6 months to a year the HP ratings "should" be where they belong because if you wanted to race in the eliminator you had better not be playing games at 1000 ft. . Not a suggestion.....just a question.
P.S. And EVERY class winner or fast car was torn down for certification before any adjustment from the AHFS was put into effect. To much work for the downsized tech crew I guess so the need for LESS seperate classes would pop up to help ease the work load. There is no easy answer.

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Ding, ding! You can really see some wacky stuff when you look at something like my DF/S Turismo, which to date has run -.640 under. In IHRA the engine is only rated 2hp different, but they still have all of the "old" NHRA front-drive classes, where it has run -1.040 under in FF/SA. Would it really make sense for there to be .70 difference between sanctions with the same combination? Maybe there are some indexes out there that "need" hit, but in my opinion the problem lies in HP factors. I don't think it makes sense to paint the indexes with a broad brush (or a wide scythe). And for the first guy to ask "Why should FWD be any exception?" I'd say, "Fine, let's see you go to full-pound weight breaks." There's a 654lb. difference between classes for my combo. Does this make sense to anyone?

- Re: Stockers running -.80 under in Super Stock.... so factor those combinations properly! I ran a Stocker in Super Stock in 2008 that happens to be a bloody fast Stocker, and it typically ran -.15 under in SS. Not -.80 under. Refer to the broad brush, above.

- Re: moving indexes even more... .80? Why not whack them 1.40? Then it'll be just like Comp. Congratulations. Or is it only okay to move the indexes just far enough so that a given individual can run under anywhere, and it's only those lazy SOB's that are slower than "that" guy that need to "work harder"?

- As King Ed mentioned earlier, if they whack .30 across the board, you'll have to run what is currently -.80 under just to "earn" a Class trophy on a single, and presumably to set a Record that's currently at Minimum as well.

- Plus anything Toby said. :cool:

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

I had an interesting Phone call to straighten out the rule change. We are correct now a car can run further under before getting hit. Further under the OLD index too.
The topic turned to "what about the guy who wants to run who cannot afford an AH car like me( no I cannot and do not have one). What about the guy who wants to or by lack of money HAS TO do his own porting, assembly etc.. ? Shouldnt he be able to enter and race in Stk and SS?
My Question is? Should we be politically correct? Should I bring my street car to an NHRA event and expect the rules to be dumbed down to allow me to compete on Sunday in Eliminator?
My opinion is besides NHRA wanting the entry, I do not agree.
Like all sports there are qualifying criteria to play. I cannot get on the court with Micheal Jordan. I cannot play with Favre next week. Why? I cannot make the cut, physically. You play your sport by making an entry level of competitiveness.either physically, mentally or financially.
It is my opinion Stk and SS are not a Welfare eliminator. Not dumbed down for the masses . Thats why Bracket racing is run most week ends.No criteria to match just drive what you can afford.
.. Work on your stuff and reach a level of competitiveness in our rules to EARN the right to compete. I think if you can do it yourself to run on NHRA Index in Stk and SS more power to you. If not ,you should be proud of what you CAN do skill wise and money wise and accept others can exceed your levels just like I accept Favre and Jordan as above my level of skills and respect them...

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Dick, just when I was starting to think that you might just be an alright guy, you post something like that! Reread my previous post on this subject please! NHRA has "dumbed" down the eliminator in the past 10 or so years to the point that I feel as if I'm the equivilant of Michael Jordan but when I play I've got to carry the ref on my back! The RULES and their ENFORCEMENT have been "dumbed" down! I've (and racers like me) always "made the cut" and then some! It is not MY fault that other racers want to take the easy way out and ask for replacement and superceded parts or HP back on their stuff to make it easy for them to be competitive!
Just stand back for one minute and look at this from MY side of the fence and you honestly tell me how much the "dumbing" has helped me and racers like me! Then you honestly tell me why I shouldn't be entitled to compete because I'm not "physically, mentally or financially" (your quote) capable!
The "dumbing down" has taken place from the top and you and the people in this sport that think like you will never be so humble as to think that YOU are the ones that want the sport "dumbed down"!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Billy, I was definitely not addressing a post you made. No I was not referring to aftermarket parts. I am only addressing the fact that it should take some level of accomplishment to make the cut to get into the eliminations with a car. Some level of performance standard.
Making aftermarket parts legal is another issue entirely. Keeping rules and enforcing them is something I have not even addressed. A weakness. This has been a spiraling problem also...

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Dick Butler said, " I cannot get on the court with Micheal Jordan."

I have news for you, Dick; when you pull into the opposing lane from Dan Fletcher, Peter Biondo, ~either~ of the Lang bros., Edmond Richardson, or David Rampy (and, yes, I have left our a few,) you ARE on the court with "Michael Jordan."

It's a lot like allowing Mike Tyson to box Golden Gloves... practically impossible for someone who, because of circumstances; financial, or otherwise, someone, who can't accrue seat time (or, equipment) equal to someone who races for a living, to win. It's possible to beat those guys, yes, but the odds are with them.

This, in an Eliminator that, at least at its inception, was created for the hobby racer, not the professional. Stock and S/S are Sportsman Eliminators, and as such, were never intended to be the venue of the professional. NHRA has Eliminators for professional racers (Pro Stock, T/'F and F-C,) and they are called "Professional" categories.

Neither Stock, nor Super Stock is one of them.

Yet, these "Pro-Sportsman" racers are not doing ANYTHING that could in any shape or form, be construed as, illegal. This situation has evolved to its current status through the progression of how the rules are interpreted, how the game is played, and what parameters are followed in the prosecution of the national and LODRS races, and their many regulations.

It's ALL legal, and above-board.

Someone said, "Making money this way is not easy."

That is way understated. As we all know, there are, by actual count, 347,218,963 ways to lose a drag race, and only one, to win it. You have to be a psychologist, chemist, engineer, statistician, prophet, athlete, tactician/strategist, and about a hundred other things to win a race, PLUS have lady luck firmly on your side.

I can't IMAGINE trying to make my living that way....... all things considered, it seems impossible!

But, there are people doing it.

Someone said you can't legislate this "Pros in a Sportsman Eliminator" away; it's here to stay..." or, something similar.

That may be true, because you really can't define a Sportsman vs. Pro in any way I can imagine. Who's to say whether these racers literally make their living on the race track??? You gonna subpoena their W-2's??? I don't think so...

The only idea I ever heard that seemed feasible was one I read on here, a couple of years sgo, and I'm not sure whether it would even have any chance of working, but that was to limit entries in such a way that everyone racing was limited to ONE CAR per race, eliminating a 2-car effort. That would drop the odds of anyone winning (if they ran, say, a Stocker and a Super Stocker) by 50-percent, wouldn't it?

I don't know anything about math, but that SOUNDS probable, to me.

That one change might make it unattractive for an alleged "Pro" to run a "tour" of national events and points races, if only one car per event, were allowed.

Of course, NHRA would never go for it; they like the entry fees from the so-called "Pros" as much as anyone else's.... and we all know that they're all for a level playing field as long as it doesn't cost them a plugged nickel.

So, we'll very likely never to see such a limit.

The more things change, the more they stay the same..... :)

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Dick, I'm sure that you weren't addressing the post that I made. You don't want to argue with my facts. I'm not trying to run a AH car. I do however do as much of my own "stuff" as I can. I think that my personal accomplishments (of which I'm very proud) should allow me to enter and race in S and SS.
I have for years played with the "Favres and Jordans" of my sport with a fair amount of success physically, mentally and financially!
No, S and SS should NOT be a "Welfare" eliminator but it also shouldn't be an eliminator for "Pompuss Asses" either.
I and the great numbers of other racers out there that DO work on their stuff have more than earned the "right to compete".
What YOU don't get is through the years certain racers have gone to NHRA and gotten replacement and superceded parts made legal because they what, "can't find the right parts"! Well if they can't find the right parts to build a "Stocker" then shouldn't THEY be excluded from racing Stock and be made to run Brackets? There's nothing wrong with Brackets, maybe they just don't have the time, the money or the knowledge to get them. Maybe they should have picked a different combo that they had the time, money or knowledge to race instead of asking for HP back.
Are you starting to see a pattern developing here? " Hey, I can't physically, mentally, financially, be competitive"! "Could you please (NHRA) give me all of the things that I need to be"? "Hey, I'm going real fast now and I don't want to get my combo factored could you change things for me again"? "Oh, screw the guys that have been doing this by the rules all of their lives, they probably are too senile, unfirm or broke to do it anymore anyway"!
Ya know Dick, when I write this down this way it kind of looks like the Democrats have infiltrated my sport and YOU are sticking up for them!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

This is the way it should be WIN CLASS to race the elminator!!!!! It WILL seperate the men from the boys!!!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

ED SED: To be honest all do not play by the same rules .

BILL SED: Well, that's a no-brainer; did I say they did? Did I even ADDRESS "favoritism"? I don't think I did.. In short, I don't know what that comment has to do with anything in my post. Maybe you could explain what I wrote that elicited that statement.

ED SED: When NHRA outlawed some MSD box's a while back do you think anyone was using one ?

BILL SED: Again, I puzzled by what might have caused you to ask that question. If nobody was using one, why would NHRA outlaw the box??

ED ASKED: Do you think some may have used a delay box before it was ok ?

Bill SED: I don't know. Do you? It wouldn't suprise me, ala the "Matty Box" debacle...

ED ASKED: Do you think people might have used a lifter that was not legal at one time ?

BILL SED, Probably.

ED ASKED: Have you ever seen a 904 transmission out of a jeep with a Chevy bolt pattern .

BILL SED: No.

ED ASKED: Do you think anyone ever put a C4 trans behind a big block for before it was legal .

BILL SED: Yes...

ED SED: I'd keep going but my fingers are getting sore . Some call it thinking outside the box and some call it cheating but not everyone plays the same game .

BILL SED: You didn't address one single issue I raised in my post. I wrote NOTHING about cheating...

If I did, please quote it for me.

In short, I am amazed at the content of your post; it sounds like the answer to a question that nobody asked.

Insofar as the "cheating" references, I have no idea what your point was. In response to your transmission references, yes, I knew of a 340 Duster that ran a disguised 904 for YEARS (held national records in S/.S and won 2 national events) and never got caught...
Had another friend who ran a C-4 behind a 429 in Stock for several years before it was legal.... and never got caught...

That stuff,in my opinion says a lot more about the quality (or, lack of same) of NHRA Tech inspections than it does about the racers in question.

Now, MY fingers (both of them) are getting tired... This "cheating" bidness could go on and on, into the night, but

I NEVER SAID A WORD ABOUT "CHEATING"!!!

Whose post were you reading?????

Have a more comprehensively-acute day....

Have a nice day

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

thank you !

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Hey Terry, I'm all for it! Where are you going to get the manpower to police it!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

Wooo Hooo
Cat Fight (hiss hiss) LOL

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

John Stock,

Wicked Crazy with that purple people eater!

Hope to see you soon!

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

What about the combos that are over factored(HP),that aftermarket parts are not available. the 3 tenths added to the index would kill or keep anyone from even thinking about building it. any changes should be made to the AHFS not the index. Just my 2cents. Mario

Re: Black Tuesday?
 

>>ED ASKED: Have you ever seen a 904 transmission out of a jeep with a Chevy bolt pattern .

>>BILL SED: No

I have, I own one. They come in mail trucks, behind a GM 2.5L 4 cyl "iron duke" engine. Very light, but the input and output shafts are very small. Wish I could it were legal for SS, but if itwere I probably could not afford all the custom parts (at least the shafts I mentioned) it would take to beef it up. Lightest automatic I can remember lifting. Glenn Self runs on in his altered.