Re: Think about this.........
 

this subject has been beat to death, but s/ss will never recover until cost goes down and dial in is eliminated. spectators will never understand bracket racing.

Re: Think about this.........
 

That's basically the short version of what I posted on another thread. That's it: dead-on!

No, no, no, no, NO! This is a myth, and an oft-repeated one at that. Bracket Racing is NOT complicated. It's not! Anyone who has ever watched The Price Is Right can understand Bracket Racing... and that sure isn't rocket science!

Explanation and promotion are all that is necessary. And to the "no fans"... did we all forget about 7,000 fans at the U.S. Class Nationals? Many national event tracks don't draw fans to the Divisional races or National Opens because either 1) they are not promoted well enough or 2) families set aside a certain amount of disposable income, and if that means they can only go to "1" big show a year, yeah, of course they are going to a National event before a Divisional. I remember Billy telling me that Maple Grove's Divisional race used to be a really big deal when it was the premier event on their schedule, until they got the Keystone Nationals, and then focus shifted to that.

Weather killed MIR this year. I believe the President's Cup has historically done pretty well.

Also, I've told the story several times before: Short version, I met a father & son wandering the pits at a Divisional race. I took it upon myself to talk to them, take them up into the stands and explain to them who and what they were seeing, and they "GOT" it in less than 5 minutes, and had a great time.

Dale - retired? I thought I saw a car with your name on it at the S/SS Combo at Fayetteville.

Re: Think about this.........
 

bracket racing is not hard to understand, it just has nothing to do with racing. i used to go to eddeyville in the seventies and the place was packed with spectators. now, you have to bring someone with you to watch you. name one, any one other sport where if you go too fast you lose.

Re: Think about this.........
 

Michael, I agree with you completely concerning the "father and son" story. As a hardcore fan since 1962, I attend 6 to 7 Nat. events including Indy, 3 to 4 D-1 events, and the Dutch Classic every year. On numerous occasions I have explained SS and Stk. to the spectators in the stands near me. I am also a huge fan of Comp. eliminator, and I also explain it; and, believe me, it is harder to explain Comp, especially CIC, to the average fan than it is to explain SS and Stk. However, after a fan understands what is going on, they inevitably like and appreciate what they are seeing. Let's face it, it is virtually impossible to like something that you don't understand.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1
Bridgeport, CT

Re: Think about this.........
 

They will play the ladder, change class, change combination including chassis, join the club and race one of the new cars (Jeg):rolleyes:

Re: Think about this.........
 

Seriously, how many cars would be at a S/SS race if the race was a heads up format? I agree it is fun to races heads up and win, but even if the economy wasn't in the tank there would still be a handful of people who have the time and money to build and run a heads up deal.

My 30 year old son started going to the races when he was in diapers, when he turned 14 we started building him a "bracket car" it was a low dollar deal but very competitive car, he won a few races with it. But he could never understand why I would want to run a class that required an occasional tear down, all the p issing and moaning, and heads up runs that unless you ran in an obscure class or spent a ton of money on a cool old car, you just weren't going to win.

He sold his bracket car and went to work for Doug Herbert who let him and the rest of the crew drive his super comp dragster and has since been trying to get a dragster. But his current job with the rail road keeps him moving around the country to much to get the task complete much less go racing. So hwen he is in my part of the country he take my middle of the pack F/SA and goes bracket racing.......

Re: Think about this.........
 

it would be packed with cars in a heads-up format if they made it affordable. comp will survive if they quit making you buy the latest, greatest head. crowds would come back to local tracks under this. we lost everyone to circle track because of the competition.

Re: Think about this.........
 

As others have mentioned. I have brought my SSer out to the track and it does generate a lot of interest for being a 69 camaro. Which some may think is odd since everyone has a camaro at the track. What generates interest is the fact that it doesn't have crappy fiberglass front end hanging off of it or a hood scoop like 95% of the camaros you see at tracks. The downside is that only generates interest with the older 45 and up crowd. 95% of the youngsters want a American, Mullis and Undercover dragster that has a 565 cu inch and up motor that runs 7.20's at 180 mph plus.

Re: Think about this.........
 

I think rules and regulation are the only thing that will control cost. Now you figure out who will and how they will. I can tell you one thing for sure no one in nascar is going to get in Mike Helton face so I think it starts with NHRA getting someone with some seeds and leave him alone.

Re: Think about this.........
 

[QUOTE=Michael Beard;

Weather killed MIR this year. I believe the President's Cup has historically done pretty well.

[/QUOTE]

NOPE.....the year before Royce lost several hundred thou also even though I heard IHRA paid him approx 2/3 to 3/4 of it to cover his loss. It was upwards of $300,000. The race only made money several years ago....and not much even then.

Re: Think about this.........
 

The cost of racing will eventually eliminate all but the wealthy in time, just my opinion

Re: Think about this.........
 

there is no need for the demise of dragracing. our local circle track has 100 cars and 2000 spectators each weekend with 5000 dollar engines. we have missed the boat somehow. now, agree or not, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going on.

Re: Think about this.........
 

I have just turned 30, I was at the U.S. nationals befor i was born. Their is nothing greater to me, or more important to me than stock/ super stock racing. I have a 1972 buick that my father ran in pure stock, and stock for a while, and then the car was passed to me. buick motor cost a lot of money, and even more now with the indexes. I have tried like crazy to get my freinds to get into class racing, They understand it, they even like it. they have been to the trtack many times with my father, and i. But the bottome line is, one of them took a all steel 70 nova, with a 9" radial, and a small block chevy and went 10.50s for about $6000.00 What would it cost to build that car as a stocker? I would love to be able to afford to do it, and im still working on that. but the people that dont have any ties with this kinda racing will never understand!!!!!!!!

Re: Think about this.........
 

I don't think bracket racing is complicated until I am asked to explain why the first car in a handicapped race to red light, ALWAYS loses, but the first car to break out, doesn't.

How do you explain the reason for that disparity to a novice?

Re: Think about this.........
 

You tell him to get a rule book and read the RULES.Then you sit back and have a beer.

Re: Think about this.........
 

There has been a decline in Stock and Super Stock??? Look at the car count in Nitro Joe's stats! Especially in Division 1 and 3! I don't see any decline!! Indy gets a full car count every year in both classes! Yeah, the racing may have changed a little bit, but the interest is still there!!! I have seen plenty of new blood in both classes in the last couple of years!!

Re: Think about this.........
 

Ed, I don't like beer....

Believe it or not, there are people who think more deeply than to simply accept such a cockeyed situation... "Well, here (on a red light) we disqualify the first car to create an infraction, but HERE, (on a breakout infraction) we don't..."

Where is the consistency?

I'd be too embarrassed for NHRA to simply ask the novice to just close his eyes to intelligent thought, and accept that glaring disparity in logic just because "IT'S THE RULE."

Rules owe it to their constituency to provide a logical reason why they're written the way they are. Anything less, is chaos...

Nobody can do that in this case. It's a travesty to anyone who looks at it with more than a cursory glance.

This may be a novice who can understand the lopsided situation it creates.

Some people are deep thinkers, Ed... and can see that if you're going to eliminate the first car to redlight, shouldn't you also eliminate the first car to break out?

They used to.... in the beginning of Christmas Tree handicap racing. But, at some point, early-on, someone said, "Hey; that makes NO SENSE!"

"Let's eliminate the racer who breaks out the MOST!!"

And so they did. I assume you have no problem with that.

Now, it's possible to eliminate the racer who RED LIGHTS the MOST!

No reason not to change to a system that mimics the breakout protocol.

If the novice asks me, I can't just dumb the question down to "READ THE RULEBOOK;" there's more to it than that, because it needs attention.... the novice MAY be as stupid and thick-headed as I was; it took me YEARS before somebody took me aside and explained the problems with the current system, and even THEN, I didn't really "get it." A few more weeks, and it began to dawn on me that, "Hey; this guy's got something, here."

Comparing it with the breakout situation, and how it's handled, might be the easiest way to understand why the way they've been doing it since 1963 is not consistent with the way they prosecute breakouts... and breakouts are EXACTLY LIKE REDLIGHTS... a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time... maybe by milliseconds, but nevertheless, the wrong place at the wrong time.

Same type infraction; needs to be handled the same way.

The novice is owed an explanation beyond "READ THE RULEBOOK."

I'd like to be there when he asks you why the difference in how red lights are treated, vs. breakouys and see what you tell him!!! "Read the Rulebook, sonny!!!" LOL!

You probably would...

Merry Christmas.

Re: Think about this.........
 

My father runs a car in Stock (occasionally ;)). We still have his old car, every now and then I consider rebuilding it and running it.

Then I remember the traveling, spending 4 days at the track 7am til after dark, the money spent, the rules changes... then I think that there are several other ways that I can beat my head against the wall and they all cost less!

Add to that now you have supercharged cars in Stock? IRS cars that have been converted to live axles with "factory approved" 4 links? The obvious disdain that NHRA has for S/SS?

You couldn't convince me to build a Stock or Super Stock car.

If i do anything with the old Oldsmobile, it will be as a bracket car.

Re: Think about this.........
 

you hit the nail on the head.it took 25000 too get a stocker to run 1 under @11.30 (g/sa 72 demon) and 12000 make a super street car to 10.20 out the back door.(68 dart)


http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...7860_jpg-1.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r...0/P1030962.jpg

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Now maybe I will get some flaming for this,but a long time ago I used to do a lot of street racing and grudge racing at the track.Back then I would tell some of the guys how I wasnt impressed by the killer cars they built.We had a local racer who ran SS/GT with a Camaro,and I would see these street racers with fiberglass front end mini tubbed cars with brodix headed bigblocks,dominators and hood scoops running low 10's,and tell guys how I could clean up around here with Walt's Super stocker.His car could run a tenth or two faster then that with a stock steel intake and a Q jet.Unknown to me it was actually stock steel heads,not intake,but impressive nonetheless.At 19 years old when I had my first set of 4.10 gears set up by this superstock racer I stood in amazemnet at the fact that the sheelstanding car that ran low 10's every weekend was an all steel full interior car with a 305 and Q jet.The fact that stockers are now truning those numbers is even more impressive.

Even as a 19 year old getting a start in drag racing I was truly impressed with how fast these cars were,but the fact was that it cost a lot of money to run these numbers and I wasnt a 2nd generation racer who was stepping into a car my family owned.I learned how to run the number with stock iron heads,flat tappet cams,and no big shoodscop,but I knew that it was far easier for me to do it by porting my heads and running a .550 lift cam then it was to run unported heads and a .390 lift cam so long that I needed to trun it 8000+ to make it work.I could put down the number with a 3500 stall convertor and 4.56's while the class racers had 5500 or better and 5.57's.I was driving my low 12 seond car to the track on 93 pump gas, and they owned a truck and trailer.Since most of the racers I know got their start just like me,broke and looking for any way to go fast on the cheap,class racing was just plain impossible.My car cost $4500 to build and thiers cost 25 grand or better.Today my $15,000 street car runs low 10's,makes it to the payout window on a regular basis in super pro and has a flat tappet 439 chevy that I built in my garage and get about 700 runs between freshen ups,and stands just as good a chance as anybody at making it to the big show in super street.It just makes more sense to me.

Re: Think about this.........
 

You show him the rule book. If he can read, he can grasp the concept. And then you stop dragging your agenda into every thread you can possibly find an imagined reason to insert it into.

Re: Think about this.........
 

Merry Christmas, Alan; it's comforting to know that wherever I post the illogic of that rule disparity, you'll be there to totally ignore the content of the post, but put on your moderator hat and try to control the subject matter that gets posted on this otherwise "open" forum.

This forum has enough moderators; put your portable hat away ,and try to understand the content of my post for once, and ignore where it's coming from.

That wouldn't be asking too much, or, would it??? Maybe so...

Happy Hollidays!

Re: Think about this.........
 

http://classracer.com/classforum/att...1&d=1253645228

Bill, has it occurred to you thay maybe, just maybe, the majority of us DO NOT CARE?? Yes, anyone can see that the advantage of the redlight rule favors the faster car. But, since you seem to be the (not so silent) minority in constantly beating this drum, it should occur to you that maybe the rest of us don't feel as strongly as you.

As a FWD Stock racer, changing the rule would help me. I retired from Stock three years ago. Not because of who can redlight first, or worst. If NHRA/IHRA changes the rule to worst redlight loses, I still won't come back to racing. Because, there are bigger problems with NHRA and IHRA right now than who got screwed by the Christmas Tree. Now, can you please give it a rest? I'm begging you (and I hate begging).

Re: Think about this.........
 

OK - I'm not a class racer. I'm a bracket racer and plan on running some .90 races this year.

Why not S/SS?

Knowledge. Pure and simple. Knowledge. Face it - you true class racers are a pretty dang smart bunch. So since I'm on my own, and not a 2nd or 3rd generation racer, how can I go S/SS racing? Which of you is going to teach me how to make cylinder heads that work? Pistons? Cranks? Who among you is giving up all the secrets to make a "Stock" car magically run 2-3 full seconds quicker than a true "stock" car from off the dealership floor?

That's right - none of you. So I can find a professional builder and write a huge check. But I like doing my own wrenching. So maybe I have to buy parts from Reher-Morrison, etc. At least I can build my own stuff and go racing.

Think about it: I can build whatever I want, pay attention to virtually no rules at all, and go bracket racing, 8.90 racing, 9.90 racing, Quick 16 racing, and if my car is old enough (it is in my case) I can go nostalgia racing in B-Gas or other "index" racing.

And I don't have to be part of an inner circle with 40 years of knowledge. And I don't need $100,000.

My car runs 8.0xx all out, and I have $40,000 in it. I can find races any week any where.

But take it as a compliment: You guys are smarter than the average racer by a HUGE margin. Who will publish their book of secrets first?

Re: Think about this.........
 

Yes I would.I've pretty much lived my life by following the rules.I have very limited debt,own
my own house,got and kept the same job for 30 years,paid my taxes,didn't break the law and wind out in the slammer and so on and so on.So yeah,I'd tell the kid go read the rules.You can never go wrong if you read and follow the rules.

Re: Think about this.........
 

Bill, give it up PLEASE!!

Re: Think about this.........
 

Alan, Mike, and Ed, I'll give it up when any one of the three of you can give me a logical reason why it should NOT be changed.

I have never heard one... and, I'm waiting.

Is the best you can do, when asked by the novice, to tell the kid, "READ THE RULEBOOK," when he asks, "What's the reason for this "First redight ALWAYS loses," BUT, "First Breakout doesn't lose; 'Worse' breakout loses."

The rulebook doesn't address the reason for that basic difference in protocol.

We all know that that "First red light" procedure was born of necessity; they didn't know how to fix it...

THAT'S NO LONGER TRUE. Easy software adjustment/fix, now....

So, I'd say that if you are really as sick of reading that fact as you seem to be, just tell me ONE legitimate and logical reason why NHRA should NOT spend the small amount of money to change this current procedure to a worse red light system, I promise the three of you, who don't seem to care much about fairness in this sport (it's a foregone conclusion that a first red light is an advantage for the faster car, even if it's a V/S over a W/S) that I will never, EVER post another word about it on this forum. NEVER.

That's something that nobody has ever done.... give me a legitimate reason not to change it. In place of reasons not to do it, I am subject to character assassination, regarded as a motor-mouthed KOOK, and generally ridiculed, in a transparent effort to divert attention away from the inability of anyone to show me ONE SOLID REASON not to change it.

I'll make good on my promise, I promise. You'll never find another post on this forum about that subject from ME, if any of you can tell me what reason exists NOT to change it.

Don't tell me you run a AA/S car and are always the chaser; that doesn't count... :)

Happy Holidays!

Re: Think about this.........
 

Bill you are beating a dead horse about this subject. Give it a rest.
I have the slowest car in Superstock I get to leave first everytime. The rule would help me more than anyone.
BUT.
When I built the car the rule was first redlight. I'm not one to build something then lobby to get the rules changed to suit me.
To me that is the same as buying a house near a race track then wanting the track shut down for noise.

Re: Think about this.........
 

Here's all the reason you need:

1) This is racing. Quicker car gets the advantage. So first red light loses.
2) This is racing. We hate sandbaggers. So worst breakout loses.

The two are in harmony with each other. There is no reason to change any rules. So now you can explain it to a novice using steps 1 & 2 above.

The end.

Re: Think about this.........
 

I love stock and super stock. The thing is, I think the only reason drag racing has lasted this long is that bracket racing has kept it alive. A guy can drive his street car to the track and have a chance. That fast and furious crap is what killed it. All these young kids want a fast Honda. Sorry but things change and it's a shame.

Re: Think about this.........
 

No, this is HANDICAP racing, not Top Fuel . The fastest car is not the one at the top of the qualifying sheet, nor does he get the first round bye run.
What planet do YOU race on?

Re: Think about this.........
 

I didn't put an adjective in front of the word "racing." At its heart, it's still racing, right? Quicker car gets the benefit.

You don't have to like the answer. But it is the correct answer, and it's why it won't change.

I didn't make the rule. Don't blame the messenger.

Re: Think about this.........
 

Art,

This horse is not dead, because it has the advantage of logical thought on its side.

You just told me that you are willing to play the goat in this theater of the absurd, to eternity, because you CHOSE to run a class with a built-in disadvantage from the git-go.

That's noble, I suppose, in a twisted way, but it's certainly no reason not to change the system from one that favors certain cars (*second-to-leave") over other ones ("first to leave.")

You act like I'm trying to give an unfair advantage to somebody, with this change.

I'm not. I'm trying to get the system changed to one that gives NOBODY an advantage.

Is that the same thing? I don't think so....

How can anyone, with an appreciation for the positive sportsmanship aspects of a system that doesn't bestow an advantage to ANYONE, be against this change?

It takes the advantage away from the second car to leave, and that's ALL IT DOES.

Now, tell me what's wrong with that, if you can. Where is it written that NHRA is entitled to run a system wherein they give an advantage to one car, or another, at their whim?

I'm not talking about horsepower factors; I'm talking about the rules structure.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

"Give it a rest"??? LOL!

I said it before, and I'll say it again.... this forum has enough moderators, already...

Is somebody selling those "temporary moderator" hats???????
I know Santa didn't bring you one; it's not Christmas,yet... :)

If you don't like what I write, DON'T READ IT! Nobody's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to participate in this discussion.

My offer still stands; if ANYONE can post (on this forum) a legitimate and logical reason not to change to a "worse red light" system, I will never write another word about it.

I'd welcome the "vacation." I'm sure everyone else would, too!!!

So far, nobody has.. because there IS no logical and legitimate reason not to change to a system of red lights that stops favoring the quicker car, be it a AA/S or a V/SA....

NHRA spends $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on trying to make racing as fair as it can be (teardowns, factors, etc.) To ignore this "easy fix" for an admittedly unfair rule is incredibly remiss, I think

But, it'll never happen, in the real world, because NHRA can't make any money with it...

Not a plugged nickel...

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Only your opinion, Mr Indy Racer

I'll say it again, in a different manor . Why is it again ,that the guy at the top of this list should be treated any differently than an A/Stocker near the bottom?

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2008#indextop

Re: Think about this.........
 

You already broke your promise. I posted the reason. You just don't like it. Sorry man.

Re: Think about this.........
 

>>>RE:"the quicker car gets the "benefit"

I have NO IDEA in what context you say, "the quicker car gets the benefit."

No one is arguing that.

Yes, the "quicker car gets the benefit," and that's the problem. There's NO REASON that a quicker car should get ANY benefit from the red light system.

Who told you they should, and how can something like that be justified???

I'd like to know what your thinking is, on this.

Tell me, please, why ANY car should derive a benefit from the starting/red light system. Wouldn't you say that ideally, it should be the same for everyone?

Please..... and tell me, too, what brought you to such a conclusion.

Re: Think about this.........
 

Because it's harder to beat an 11.00 index by 1.00 seconds than it is to beat a 15.00 index by one second. So unless we start measuring by how big a % you can beat an index by, yadda, yadda, yadda, we simply use the rule we've already used.

Now in the case you showed, that 1.335 under is pretty impressive. But look down the list. 1.085 under an 11.85 index is tougher than 1.100 under a 13.75 index.

So how are you going to decide? Sorry, but the answer is simple: Do it how they've always done it. Quicker car gets the advantage. First red-light loses.

If you'd be willing to re-seed the qualifiers based on percentage run under the index, then perhaps a "worst red-light" rule makes sense. And they should block the red/green from the other driver's sight.

I'm sorry you don't lie my answer, but you don't need to mock me and make it personal. It's not.

Re: Think about this.........
 

Bill Dedman said "LEGITIMATE AND LOGICAL REASON". Your reply was neither one !

Re: Think about this.........
 

Like I said. Sorry you don't like the answer.

Big picture: Racing (in general - I don't care if it's rubber duckies in a tub) is about being quicker than the next guy. Handicap racing eliminates most of that. One thing that's left is that in a drag race that is handicapped, either through class racing or bracket racing, the quicker car gets the benefit of the "first red-light loses" rule.

Just because you hate the reason, doesn't make it NOT the reason.

Re: Think about this.........
 

Really? Who is the "legitimacy police?" You? And what makes it illogical?