Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

yanno.............fer someone building a "brand new car from scratch"......... ya sure spend a LOT of time on yer computer BS'n .... or mebbe I am spendin too much time "readin"!!

I dont know about the rest of ya............... READY FER SPRING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Lol...well in the shop its when I take my smoke breaks and sit at my desk which is OFTEN...the last couple days its sitting with my son is a hospital...not like they got a handball court here or anything :D

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Droozie. I hope you are more respectful of the other competitors that run a drag pak than go to Pomona or any where else and try to get Monday morning HP. I could have the engine up to 410 HP for you to start with. No I choose top refrain from destroying a GREAT race car. I surely hope you will rethink your position on this combination. Not to mention the Dragpak can no longer run B/SA and when the HP on the Dragpak gets to 414 it will only be able to run AA, then Mustangs will eat you for lunch.

Signed Irvin Johns and 98 other dragpak owners

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Holy Shyt. I'm sittin' here cross-eyed and with a 20 megaton migraine building up steam.

Dr.Ooze, just one question............

Do you get paid by the word, or by the post? Or both?

Oh yeah, can't wait for Pomona. Hope there's killer air.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Actually....................... I'd like to see the 3.25% in first 3 events..................THAT'd be "historical", wouldn't it???

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

WOW !!!!!!! Your plan is 3.25 hits at the first 3 races ????
You have got to be kidding ???
Please explain your theory on this

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

I type 140-150 wpm...it fill up fast...sorry most I edit for length and shorten...yes really....but then again Ive never talked to you on the phone....after that you would be happy to read the "short" version :)

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

you dont have to be living in the 60's.......just put the Horse Power Factors up to where they belong and all could be well. If the factor puts the new cars out of stock at 7.5 lbs per HP....so be it. Let them run S/S instead. We all know they are a joke in AA, A and B. Just wait until some of the other engine combos hit the track and listen to the squealing.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Heh heh....Go ahead Drooze......HAMMER that Mo Fo for all its worth. I just hope it passes teard down....Oh wait.....NHRA will factor you and the rest anyway even without tear down. Lets see how fast those package cars will really run and while we are at it lets see some Ford racers with "Balls" in the 2008 and 2010 Mustangs do the same thing. Its the ONLY way the AHFS will work.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

At least IHRA still has the F/I classes ,so these other combos won't hurt the slower classes. If they take F/I classes away i will be done in stock. Matter of fact anybody need some 283 stocker engines & Trannys & converters. in a 66 nova 4-door .7 under in IHRA and .3-.4 in NHRA.Think i am going bracket racing for a while.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

I was looking at a 1968 issue of Dragster yesterday. It showed A at 7.5. When did it get changed to 8? Maybe A should be changed back and AA should be 7.0?

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Why just the new cars? The only way the AHFS will work is if everyone goes wide open.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

A long time agoi back in the 7 inch tire days

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Because the new package cars that were NEVER even street legal will ruin the established older muscle cars in the same class with their "Flim Flam" HP ratings. The older combos have been beat on for years. These new combos havent even been maxed out yet.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

I'm sure the new factory race car packages will be under close scrutinization by NHRA at the start of the year. I'm positive that a Ford Mustang or Mopar Challenger will hit the trigger point and probably run fast enough to call for an automatic adjustment. Last year Irv Johns AA/SA Challenger ran 1.16 under (1.15 is the trigger point) and this year with the new index, that would put him 1.13 under the index with the same 9.74 pass. I'm glad Irv didn't run his car in A/SA. :) So who will be the first DP to push the supercharged Fords into SS? I know John Force/Robert Hight have their AA/SA Mustang completed and if John gets behind the wheel, you know his right foot will stay planted to the rug.

As far as the Gen III Hemi's are concerned. NHRA will first look at the engine family average. I don't know how many 6.1 SRT Magnum's, Charger's or Chrysler 300 C's are running in stock, but I've seen those 4400-4600lb cars run mid 12's to low 13's with just a CAI and a good tune, plus those cars just got factored 5hp for 2010 for having a 370 cubed Hemi.

Next NHRA will look at the class/engine average. That means they'll look at the Hemi's with the same specific engine combo, transmission type and body style which will only factor the DP cars and not the rest of the cars in that particular class. I don't know what classes the DP will finally end up at after the shuffle, only time will tell.

HP:WT ratio? These DP's aren't as light as some folks figure. In order to make the minimum weight for the class, we figure we only have 320 lbs to work with and the car still needs a cage, full rear end, brakes and suspention, driveshaft, fluids, etc, etc. I'm guessing and this is only a guess as of now, that the finished car should come in between 3400-3450lbs. Given that weight and Drooze gets the 3.25% he's looking for, that'll still put his car at 8.43 at 3400lbs.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

HEMIDUP::

HP:WT ratio? These DP's aren't as light as some folks figure. In order to make the minimum weight for the class, we figure we only have 320 lbs to work with and the car still needs a cage, full rear end, brakes and suspention, driveshaft, fluids, etc, etc. I'm guessing and this is only a guess as of now, that the finished car should come in between 3400-3450lbs. Given that weight and Drooze gets the 3.25% he's looking for, that'll still put his car at 8.43 at 3400lbs.

you need to use 3100 as shipping weight on the DragPak with the 6.1 engine which equals 3100lb, 403 HP, equals 7.69

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

What about the 68 Hemi Darts and Cuda's? They weren't street legal either and at one time considered a new car. I also see 10hp was added to the 426 Hemi for 2010. Who back in 68 thought a SS/AH Dart was ever going to run in the 8's?

I wouldn't think these new factory race cars should effect the older muscle cars once NHRA establishes the class/engine average based on the specific engine combo, transmission type and body style. Only time will tell though cause that call will still be at the discretion of NHRA.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Gotcha. When I talked with Doug, he told me 3250. I was just going off of what he said.....Back to the drawing board.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

the 68 hemi cars were never in stock, they were in superstock because they weren't street cars. thats what the big gripe is here

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

DK
I would be happy to explain it.....but I have some caveats...Im sure youll understand some...

I would actually like and enjoy some feedback from people outside our group (i.e. the DP teams its already been shared with)

1)I will submit you a "brief" of the plan via PM, the entire plan is 6 pages of analysis so I dont think you want to muddle through that.

2)You agree not to disclose the details to anyone outside of us (i.e. mums the word)

3)You post back to this thread your general impression although not the details but one of the 3 opinions listed here, a)Hogwash and the raving of a lunatic b)The plan has potential c)Its genius and I should abandon racing and buy an evil genius lair :)

4)You share back with me via PM the observations and potential pitfalls you see in the plan as well as point out any incorrect assumptions.

Id love to like I said.....Ive had a hard time finding someone whos opinion I would value in an "outside" perspective.

Let me know either here or PM and Ill send it over.

Cheers

Chris

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Drooze
Fair enough I look foward to reading your plan
Doug

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Yeah.....What Chad Rhodes said and.........................
Yeah right again......LOL. Look how long it took the Fords to get a little HP and it hasent hurt them a bit except now they can not run A/S and A/SA........... Ive got a few Bridges for sale also.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

This is getting to be a "dead horse", but I am going to write it again anyway.

In 1968 the Hemi cars were built to run Super Stock. They were built to the current rules and were "state of the art". They were so good that they still lead the pack and have their own class.
Almost every other sixties factory muscle car was built with Stock Eliminator as a consideration. That would include Ram Air Pontiacs, Hemi and Six Pack Mopars, Cobra Jets, W-30's, Stage 1's, etc. Since those "good old days" there have been other factory ringers, but nothing like back then.
Todays new "Package Cars" are an example of what you get when the modern OEM's look at the current rules and build a car. If you guys hadn't accepted all of the enhancements over the last forty years with open arms you wouldn't have this to complain about. You have to face up to the fact that there is very little about Stock Eliminator that is stock any more.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Drooze.
I guess I will go with B
I see what you are trying to do .
Thank you for responding good luck to you and your Dad !!
Doug

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Darren,
There are light years of difference between those cars you listed from the sixties and the specialty race cars like the Drag Pack and the Cobra Jet. Tell me, exactly how many of those cars from the sixties entered Stock having more HP at the rear wheels with their original untouched factory stock engine than the current record holder in their class had at the flywheel? And yet they were rated at the exact same HP?

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Alan,

I have not once said that these cars are not under rated, but so were a lot of the cars that have been front runners. Especially some of the lower class cars.

My point is that in this day and age a new car should not have to be Federal highway legal to be legal for Stock Eliminator. I am tired of giving away air bags, stereos, aluminum wheels, tires, seats, carpet, wipers, steering, brakes, fuel system, axle assemblies, transmission, computers, wiring harnesses, starter, alternator, heater, etc. because the rules don't require that stuff. I also don't think that having a factor in the classification guide that supports all that junk is fair.

Do me a favor. I am sure you have read my recent post in the 2011 Camaro sticky. Send me a PM of how you think the 2011 Camaro should be submitted.

On a side note. Any chance you can come down and run Top Stock with us this year?

Take Care,

Daren

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Daren,
Regular production street legal is the whole basis for the class. Seriously, for the entire life of the class, being able to buy the car and drive it home is a big part of the spirit of the class. Changing that changes the whole idea behind the class, and opens a massive can of worms.

I understand what you're saying about all of the equipment you can remove, and the weight that goes with it. But if the price of solving that problem is letting bogus ringers into the class, then the price is just too high.

I do not really know a great deal about how to submit a car to NHRA, but I'll give it some thought.

Everything belongs to Kevin, so while I have some input, it is mostly limited to the car itself and that part of the program. Kevin makes the decisions on where we go and when, with a little input from me, but not much. However, we're pretty much of the same opinion as Arnold, we'd prefer to see more 1/4 mile Top Stock. Kevin is considering some IHRA races, we'll see what happens.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Gump: let's look at it as - the glass is half full, instead of half empty. ( That was until last year...) There are plenty of things "Stock" about Stock Eliminator. The major thing was you could buy the car off the showroom floor, put plates on it and drive it home. Until last year, if you couldn't do that ...it was a Super Stocker- plain and simple. I have no problem with Showroom Mustangs, Showroom Challengers, Showroom Camaros, or Showroom anything being spec'd out and running Stock... Purpose Built Cars.. That.. I have a problem with. They are Superstockers OR if you're going to allow them in Stock, give them their own class. For example (one example); someone answer this simple queston - How far further back is the location of the Engine in the Drag Pack Challenger than a Showroom Challenger? JB

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

3)You post back to this thread your general impression although not the details but one of the 3 opinions listed here, a)Hogwash and the raving of a lunatic b)The plan has potential c)Its genius and I should abandon racing and buy an evil genius lair :)

Thanks Ill take B....thats what I was gunning for...but it was a trick question, as any of those 3 answers would have been Ok with us :D

But B is good I can work with B...

But A to C was an easy path too ;)

Thanks

Chris

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

This thread amazes me.

I've read a ton of threads here from the "Class Racing Establishment" about the downfall of class racing. Seems that two reasons are given: 1) lack of new people; 2) new factory ringer cars with underrated engines.

So you guys attack a guy wanting to build a new car and actually RACE it an entire 1320 feet? Wouldn't that start adjusting the HP factor right away? Isn't that how the system works?

And then the other DP guys get on board begging him to ALSO be a sandbagger (cheater)? If you have a HP advantage that's unfair, and you continually race to 1000' then bag the race in order to maintain your unfair advantage - you're a cheater. So apparently 98 DP owners are cheaters.

And everyone who isn't a DP owner on this thread is bashing Drooze for having an unfair advantage AND telling him they hope he has some "respect" for other racers and doesn't run his car out the backdoor so everyone can keep their unfair advantage.

WTF?

Do all you non-DP racers want the DP cars to have an unfair advantage or not?

If you're not careful, all your 1963-1973 S/SS cars will be stuck racing at nothing but Goodguys events for no money, no recognition, and no fans, at 6 events a year. Or you can take them all bracket racing. That's all you're doing anyway except when you're sandbagging (cheating) to maintain an index.

How many of you are new to this in the last 10 years? That's right. No new blood = death of class racing. And this clique sure isn't very open to any neew blood. Let's see how many guys who've know each other and been racing since the 60's jump all over me for this post.

Any side bets?

Change your attitude toward new cars and new racers or live with the results. You'll be to blame.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

To answer your question. The Drag Pak engine is set back 1 1/2". However, once you purchase your show room floor Challenger, you can go back to the parts department and buy yourself any part that is offered on the DP. You can buy a DP K frame and put it in your new Challenger along with a carbon fiber hood to boot. There's an A/SA Challenger thats fully street legal. That Challenger has a VIN and a title whereas the DP's are just a serial number. What would be the difference?

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

We're already racing for no money, no recognition, and no fans. At $200 to $300 per event. We have NHRA to thank for that. And now we have NHRA to thank for a bunch of bogus factored ringers in the class. I guess we're all supposed to be just tickled to be getting it. At least according to you. :rolleyes:

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

are you really that dense? the DP COMBINATION is what isn't showroom avaialbe, and streetable. It makes no damn difference if the actual car in competition began life as a body in white, a DP, an SRT-8, or a v6

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

No but it was dealer available.....albeit for 1 day till it sold out....

We walked into the dealer filled out the papers they faxed em in and we waited. No different than any other special order car.

No secret handshakes neccesary....contrary to public misperception.....we are nobodys....we got one...I know several other people that not only are nobodys but dont even know what to do with them now that they have them, 1 is going to build a street legal...lights even in the dome and visors...bracket terror...his car his choice, I kind like it.

I think what he was saying is there is NOTHING on the DP car anyone cant walk into a dealer and order from the Parts counter. And a street challenger as you call it can be gutted down and done up just as easy...how many other cars are in stock that had the same type of packages ? Like the RA cars ? Etc..Maybe Im wrong...but I think thats what hes saying....

How is this any different from the Old Stock packages, the Thunderbolts, the Lightweights etc ? Or later Ram Air dealer option packages, etc...It isnt....by 68 it was known as a Package car and they ended up in their own class...

But where does the Thunderbolt run now ?

Obvioulsy the later AFX cars with hilborn etc, started....in stock ?.....until someone...I dont have my refrence material here so I dont want to misquote... saw how they filled the stands....then he said "they can bring those funny cars" Can somone confirm this quote...its been bugging me...

But thats what I was saying about a positive evolution out of what a lot of people are so obviously upset about....look at it instead as an opportunity...to advance racing.

Im not disagreeing...not at all, I just think....I could be wrong I know what he is saying, he also has a Factory "Lightweight" car....sooo

So what if a Dealer builds enough like say 50+ and sells em like the Yenko's.....hell add a super while theyre at it....Id do it if a) I was a dealer and b) Had a spare 5 mil or so....take 10 stash em and those would be my kids "legacy"

Anyone can build one Hell Doug Duell did it BEFORE they were hitting....With the same parts we use....So its not a lack of avaiablity....

Dont flame I understand, but I also think I understand Hemidup

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Exactly.

Yet none of you in the inner circle are very open to new people and new cars, are you?

Perhaps we should just cancel Class Racing for good.

It's your choice. What are you going to choose? Let Class Racing die with the old guard? Or try to revive it with new blood?

(oh - and I didn't suggest what you should or shouldn't like.)

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

Thanks Chad ! Now let's talk about the Rear End, and the Rear, as well as the Front suspension. Let's compair it to what the Corvette "STOCKER" Guys have had to go through. JB

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

The rule is clear and the car follows it 100%

It uses the STOCK Spring location,

It uses the STOCK Shock mounts.

Only the Upper 2 have Heims and are adjustable..

Just like the rulez says....

Can the Vettes use the Stock Shock Mounts, and the Stock Spring Mounts for their setup ?

You want my business or NOT ?!?! :D....lol......

I couldnt resist, I did get your PM, Im just in the hospital however with my son....so.....but cool. Ill touch base next week.

The front ? Whats different, ? I can drop on a set of stock struts....and back and forth...?

Cheers

Chris

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

I'm not "in the inner circle". I'm not at all opposed to new people or new cars. I don't think anyone else is either. I'm opposed to having ringers with bogus factors dumped into the class that no existing cars are even close to being able to run with.

I suppose you think everyone in the classes these new cars are in should just enjoy getting blown off the track by cars that belong in Super Stock instead of Stock. Somehow that seems to be a really high price for those people to pay to get a few new cars and new faces in the class. A guy who has been racing for years, working on his combination for all that time, investing a lot of money, should just bend over and take it, so new cars can be added?

Because what you're saying is everyone who has a car that runs A or AA that isn't a new Cobra Jet or Drag Pack car should just accept the fact that they don't even have a prayer, and they should be the ones to pay the price for having "new blood". Think about it.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

watch it with the vettes, we've got two of em, lol. But yes putting a straight axle in a vette is a nightmare to meet what NHRA wants.

Re: How the factory "Package" cars may save Stock
 

And again the Drama continues with the same people complaining about how the Drag Pack Challengers and the Cobra Jet Mustangs are ruining Stock Eliminator by just being in the same Eliminator. It is ironic how they have Brand loyality written all over their posts yet they continue to complain about how Stock is ruined because these cars are allowed to race. It is not the 1960's and the rules have evolved to allow the Car manufacturers to build something other than what used to be allowed. EPA and Safety standards don't allow things to be the same as what the Manufacturers can do or not do in todays world, yet some racers fail to admit that. Now imagine that, the rules in Stock have somehow changed. If I remember right back in the 1960's you were required to have 7 inch wide tires, and they better not be a quarter of an inch wider, or you were out. I remember Mufflers and pipes hanging, stock brakes, valve springs with stock tension, camshafts with stock duration, no electric water pump drives, no jerico four speeds, no Metric 200 transmissions, etc. How many of you would like to go back to those rules? Times have changed, rules have changed and like it or not, Stock has evolved into what we have today. The problem is not that the Cobra Jet Mustangs and Drag pack Challengers are racing in Stock but that the Automatic Horsepower Factoring System doesnt work like it should and hasn't for a long time. Most of the compaints about the Mustangs and Challengers don't even affect the guys complaining , because they don't race at Indy at the U.S. Nationals, the one race where it may really make a difference, running for the class trophy. If you just run the points meets and an occasional National event, are you really losing races because of the unfair horsepower factor these cars have? " Oh but wait, I may have to possibly run one at a points meet, heads up,and that is an unfair advantage." Welcome to the twenty- first century.