Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Wade, running a class and motor combination that you have no run or have no experience with; than a dyno might be your best friend. If you think that just going to the track and trying to sort out a new car and motor, using track time only; than you have alot to learn about class racing. And most class racers are hard working people that are using most of their own money and time, not using Daddys' money. You have and index that you have to be able to run faster than at all times not one where you are trying to slow the car down. Maybe there is a reason that almost all the Super Gas and Super Comp crossovers run modified and not traditional Super Stock where you have to go thru tear down, not just a leak down. You are down in Bob Cupps neck of the woods and I am pretty sure he could get you up to speed with the motor combo a hell of a lot faster than making fifty trips to the track. Track and seat time can get to be alot more expensive in the long run than a little dyno time.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Bill, not knowing when you raced Pinks All Out you may have had a bad experience. I'm sure they had problems in the beginning; however, at Z-Max NHRA Tech Personnel were there from Z-Max, Bristol and Atlanta. These folks were not young people who had nothing else to do for the week-end, these guys were old enough that Roy Hill knew most of them personally (only kidding Roy, see you in a couple of weeks). I am sure they would not appreciate being told they did not do their job with 500 cars, continuous working from 11:00 am to 6:00 pm. And yes they made us take the hood off, battery relocated, open the trunk to check the battery and ballast hold downs, checked the name of the fuel lines, checked belts, harnesses, coat, pants AND the helmet. Date was out by two months and they sent us packing off to buy a new helmet. Some had to go back and drain the radiator and engine for antifreeze.

Yes there were some parts broken, rods out the side of engines, transmission slip in to a few pieces, drive shaft and at least 3 broken rear gear housings. But you remember the name of the game is ALL OUT, no brake lights.

Gary you are correct on two counts. Pinks will continue to add rules to their events. The little box used to determine who stayed or went home was interesting. They use your times from Friday, adjust for weather conditions. Either run that number or you are gone. Second something has to change, and soon, or Super Stock, as a 63 year old, knows it will only be a memory for the Drag Racer Reunions or Nostalgia races. Right now Sportman racing, at the price it costs to race, is only paying the bills for Pro cars to promote their sponsors. If you look back on this board and some other boards, the comment was made sometime ago wondering when NHRA and IHRA would look at what is taking place at a Pinks event and try to cash in. Look at the new NHRA event. We are going to try to run at one of those and see what happens under NHRA's watchful eyes.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

As far as Pinks go, at least they have enough insight to know that the mph and et don't match and out you go.

Also, you could say that lazy/slow/no factoring of certain combos could also be looked at as "helping to pick a winner" in some instances.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Listen up S/SS racers....Rich contacted me today and had a lengthy talk after warming up to my idea(s) after a few back and forth emails. I just sent him another outlining a format similar to class eliminations at National Events. The prime element would be performance based competition using a CIC rule to prevent runaway combinations and sandbagging. Due to contractual restrictions a TV package can't be included (but not ruled out completely).

Remember, this is an attempt to market our group to the masses. I must respect his wisdom with experience in TV ratings, spectator appeal, etc. Rich is a promoter, not a gearhead and is the first to point that out. Yes the program is crude, but it's for the sake of simplicity. He is truly passionate about what we do though. The idea is to find a happy medium that allows class cars to finally run as hard as they can within the rulebook. No shoe polish, breakouts or handicapping. PLEASE give it some serious thought with an open mind. NHRA is claiming they care about sportsman racing but guarantee it's because they're finally feeling the squeeze, and will say anything to prevent losing us to something better!!!!!!! It could also secure a better future in case the hammer does fall at NHRA.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Oh, and I did recommend a few familiar names for tech officials. So this won't be like what's been termed "po-dunk" rules and events.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

If something productive could actually come of these talks, it could be a great future for S/SS racing.....a breakaway could be the best thing that could happen with the way things are currently heading w/NHRA....WJ

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Just tell us where and I'll have Chris3 loading the car

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Keep up the good work Gary. The S/SS racers that have been around awhile know that changes in the rules are nothing new. In my opinion, change is inevitable. What kind of change ? I'm not sure. Top Stock, Junior Stock, Modified Eliminators. Gone. Remember the gasser wars ? I could go on. The fact is, most things, drag racing included, change/evolve , whatever you want to call it. I think it is very important to the sport of drag racing that classes like S/SS continue. Continue providing a fantastic avenue where the American family can race together without having a major corporate sponsor. Some people move into the professional classes, most do not. Let's be positive in our attempt to grow our sport. You'll always have the naysayers. I couldn't believe it when NHRA disolved Modified. Keeping S/SS the same old , same old isn't going to cut it . Stick with it Gary.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Bobby I most certainly remember Modified..it was my dream to run that stuff one day but got dashed by NHRA and I refuse to see it happen again. Although the growing number of local S/SS associations have provided an alternative for handicapped style racing we still need a venue for the true spirit of class racing that's performance based. For those supporting, I can't thank you enough, and hope there will be plenty others. I may have to start another thread as I'm going off the original topic. I made my comments about the SRAC meeting with NHRA that weren't positive towards the sudden support from Mr. Light and Compton. That's because I honestly believe it's again nothing more than CYA lip service to stiffile any potential competition towards NHRA. But if they expect us to embrace change, we must insist they embrace it too, even at the expense over their bad decisions.

Upon Rich's response to the outline I'll post the next level of ideas and hope to have an execution plan in place. Until then please post any constructive feedback so I can forward it on to Rich. Negative stuff he has the luxury of turning his back so please keep it positive.

I'm beginning to feel we have something good coming our way!!!

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Pinks is entertainment Class Racing is a prefession. What is good for a show comes first not what is fair or just.On Pinks Rich is the show decissions,controversies,personalities all come first and keep the camera on the show not on racing.I am all for putting Class Racing front and center not behind or last.I think Pinks would hurt the prefession.You guys & gals deserve much much more.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Al, I'll agree that many racers approach to S/SS racing is very professional, but in it's present format isn't making the draw like the pros. Rich did test index/handicap/breakout format but bombed big time with spectators, getting booed constantly. We need a bridge that connects us to the fans. The fans want flat out running. Even with the slower cars, when the racers push it as hard as they can coupled with Rich's excitement, the crowd still gets into it which is what's needed. That's what will attract new blood, the young guy in the stands who says "man, I could afford that, I want to be a part of this too". When the new guy enters the program and later finds it a bit too expensive, he'll discover other options like shoe polish racing at the association level. I believe over time the PINKS side will propagate into all levels which will drive a new form of popularity of S/SS. When I was a kid class racing was run off of records. I didn't know what all the class letters meant, but understood handicap starts. By the time the breakout rule and index system was instituted, although I grasped the concept, I watched as fans got turned off due to over complication, eventually leaving the stands.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

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Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Everyone who races in class racing might make it depending if they can run close to their index. Pinks is left to the promoter who runs the show who will make the show. I've gone to both Arms down and pinks and none are that interesting. Maybe to someone who knows nothing about racing it might be interesting but nothing beats Stock and Super Stock .

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

OK. I have been to several PINKS events and I can tell you the majority of the crowd is NOT there to see a 11.5 second stocker or a 10.0 Super Stocker. Most of the people I talked to wanted to see crashes and be on TV. They were interested in the cars that were running in the 8's but that is about it. I do think a change is needed however if you are looking to draw a crowd like the pro's it is never going to happen. Today's society is more about video games and electronic technology. They have an uncanning need for speed and addiction for thrill. To them, class racing is boring. This is why most young racers are into 10.5 stock suspension racing. Grudge racing. They can go fast with power adders and cheaply built cars. They have no certification so alot of rules are bent. When drag racing started there were no pros. And when the faster cars did arrive it was exhibition. Now, the public demands to see the fast cars with the big names and will pay whatever to see it. As far as changing to a CIC rule and index for stock and super stock I agree that it could work so long as the CIC was a .500 to a .700 under. Anything more than that would take a budget racer out of the picture with the new CJ's and Challengers.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

There won't be index or handicap racing in this format. And I respectably disagree about the crowd not getting into 10, 11, or even 12 second cars. I myself found they were there to take in the whole experience...action, be on tv, seeing friends cars race, or just be inspired. The CIC would be based on .5 - .6, nothing more. If things work right, CIC won't be an issue. Rich and crew try to get the tightest group for the 32 car pick. Sometimes it's tight, sometimes not. I find this a nice change over trying to hit my dial or simple class eliminations.

Remember this is an attempt at something new, different, and to attract new blood. You can pick it apart and criticize, do nothing and just let class racing run its course, or give it a chance and see what happens. The very least is be out of your travel and entry expenses, nothing worse than an NHRA event.

Ultimately this will attract sponsor support, bring back healthy sticker money, incentives for setting records, increase in prize money, and dedicated TV coverage.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

On satellite T V several years back i had watched over 8 hrs of class racing from the US Nationals i don't remember what station but the format was smilier to Diamond P sports.I wish they had that program today Class Racing is all i watch when pro's come up i leave to Rome the pits.Soon i hope to finish at least one of my cars.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

So I would pay 60 bucks to see if I can get in a 32 car field out of 500 cars? That doesnt seem to be helping class racers. Without a handicapped start you eliminate a ton of cars. For instance if you bring your K/S and I bring an A/S somebody is going home without a chance to race. If we do both get in (impossible with the current format) you stand no chance on a heads up race. I as anyone else could go race any weekend in et with a 60 dollar entry fee and a chance to win $1250.00 on an even field using dial in and breakout rules.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

If dial in, breakout racing is what you like that is what you should do. Some would rather do some real drag racing with out the shoe polish and sand bagging. Thats who Garys looking for. PLO is a hit, bracket racing not so much. Also the fans don't go to watch only the fast cars. At the Seattle race there wasn't that many fast cars but the fan turnout was huge. They just liked the close racing. When I say fast I mean 8 seconds or less. They would go nuts over a buch of wheel standing S/SSers.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

I'm going to post on this one more time. You are correct not many 9 second or less cars show up at Pinks All Out. The ones that do usually are part of the quick 8 race for $500. The idea is to be in a class where the most cars are and all of the cars in that class run All Out and the times be closer than any other class. I have seen 10 second cars picked and I have seen 11 second cars picked. One show where 11 second cars were picked the margin of victory between several races was in thousanths of a second. Also you are correct the majority of the crowd wants to see the wheels up racing. At Z-Max, a station wagon was the hit of the program. That wagon carried the wheels to the 1/8 th mile mark. Everyone in the stands knew that wagon would be on TV and yes he made the TV show during the elimination runs from 32 to 16 and he was in the 4 lane race.

Gary, the parent of a young man who is in a pretty high position at SPEED in their home office in Charlotte lives here in Raleigh. They are big car fans and we see them at most every event in this area. I will try to mention to them the comments you have posted and see if I can have him call me. We hope they put something together and we will start loading up.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Thank you Chris! I've also been passing thread status to Rich and his management company. Still, we need all the support we can muster to make this happen. I can't stress enough that to get media support, tv time, or whatever, it's paramount the "80-20 rule" be met. In fact, I'm finding it more like "90-10". In other words, we must show as much or more support towards PAO than the local bracket racers have done to make this succeed.

Floyd, to clarify, A/S vs K/S wouldn't be possible. Say you're the only A/S car, no B or C cars, you won't get in the show because you're too far out of a possible "ET pool". Also, there's never an entry list so it's the gamble you take. But the more entries there are, or can get 20 or more A/Ser's to enter, you've raised your chances to be part of the 32.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Harry, Gary and Chris,
You are all on a class racer forum trying to convince class racers to go to an event that is heads up all out. Class cars are built for a specific index. K cars are not built to run with A cars and vice versa. The only way to get more class racers involved is to keep the current system with bigger coverage. I can run an A stocker all out every pass and it still wont help any other class that showed up. Most of us want to race not time trial. Make a system where that is possible and you will have more stockers and super stockers than you ever imagined. But putting us against inexperienced drivers with 4K junk cars and nitrous just doesnt work for a lot of us.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Floyd...you're preaching to the choir...I own and drive an L/Stick Mustang and have been getting my hands dirty with class cars since the mid 70s. This also isn't a time trial event. Full stands with respectable TV coverage for sportsman racing hasn't happened since original Beech Bend NHRA Sportsnats. Because the complications of shoe polish racing, and time allotment for television, this may be the only way we can showcase our stuff to the masses. The days of Stock and Super Stock the way we've known it for so long is on borrowed time. The costs involved for policing tech, dwindling sticker support, and lack of fan appeal has made it a liability. The cost of racing the cars has spiraled almost vertically. If we don't come up with something new, our cars will become very expensive bracket racers. I believe when you bitch about something, you must be willing to offer a solution too. This is my offering. If you don't like what I'm trying to get, you don't have to participate.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Class racing has been a liability. However, it is a liability that NHRA knows it has to live with. I agree we need more contingency money. I agree we need more TV time. I do not agree that pinks is the answer. We need a format that all class racers can attend and have a shot at winning. We need to ensure an even playing field and to do that with the multiple classes we have it has to involve some sort of handicapped start. I agree with index and CIC. If you set index per NHRA and use a .600 CIC penalty you give every class a chance at winning. Also, how long do you think it will take NHRA and IHRA to threaten track owners of pulling their national events should it start taking money from their pockets. Then you end up at mom and pop tracks that are run down and very dangerous. The solution lies with getting NHRA and IHRA to understand the importance of our breed of racing. I offered a few years ago to assist anyone who wanted to start a True Sportsman Racing Association. I had everyone wanting to do it just no one willing to help.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Floyd, IHRA isn't a problem. But their class racing program isn't as challenged as NHRA. NHRA has the resources to put together a spectacular package but will not take away from their pro program to make it happen. Why? again...lack of fan appeal. OR, they could do it like PINKS, having a final 8 and running them "out the back door". And it still isn't heads up racing. Look at the present landscape in drag racing: here in South Florida bracket racing is dying. Why? because electronics over complicated things and chased away frustrated racers. The growth of heads-up index and outlaw racing has taken over because the tracks can now fill the stands unlike bracket racing ever could.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer class runoffs, but it would take the caliber of Indy at every race to even start to get something decent. Runoffs at other races have lost appeal from the casual fan. Not to mention the hosting costs have become too prohibitive to keep it at that level. The PINKS format has potential to attract support that our categories haven't seen in quite some time.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Sorry Folks
PINKS is not racing.In fact it gives DRAGRACING A BAD NAME.
People who watch the show thinks PINKS is the way real racers race..
Glorified time run fest for the remote chance you can GET ON TV or GET INTO A MEANINGFUL RACE..
Besides Rich Christenson... Dont know ANYTHING ABOUT CARS OR RACING..
And besides HE IS A H O M O and a WANNABE car guy
Its about them getting your money..
PINKS dont care about CLASS CARS
They get more than enough

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

James post something constructive or take it somewhere else. I'm not interested in hearing comments from your piehole.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Gary,
I still dont see the support mechanism. sponsors will not spend advertising dollars on cars that may or may not make the field. they want a car and driver that has a chance of winning as much as possible to give their product as much exposure as possible. Sponsors know that losing or not qualifying doesn't help the general public rush out to buy their product. They also know what it cost for advertisement and they are not willing to waste one penny on a program that their investment has less than a ten percent chance of getting in the show much less winning. As far as attracting support for our categories It is NOT possible under the current PINKS format. The fans don't care what class your car is neither is it advertised. You also mention electronics but a ton of cars on pinks use them. Most of the cars in the actual race atleast have a trans brake. Here in the Carolinas and back in Louisiana the bracket racing is getting bigger and bigger. I think some areas just have suffered more over the economy. Anyway my point is PINKS is a heads up competition run what you brung. Way to many class racers will be left out in the cold and have paid 60 bucks for 2 time trials unless you can figure out how to handicap it. Otherwise build a 10 second street car with nitorous and go have fun.

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Floyd you might think I fell off the turnip truck but I've been around drag racing and other forms of motorsports since the '60s. I also know what's involved with running a business and advertising as we were a track sponsor for almost 20 years. Sponsors/supporters look at one thing only..return on investment. There are class racers out there who go really fast, win class, but get little press coverage. That equates to little exposure that I wouldn't waste time or money on. But someone who could guarantee exposure, whether it be tv time, magazines, web, or what ever, that's who I want. Furthermore the compensation would be relative to the market. I'm not talking John Force sponsorship, but something better than what we have now.

If it weren't for my last minute decision to make the event, I would have easily obtained local support as I had some stuff lined up. So you're wrong about not being able to attract support under the PINKS format. Fact is when talking to several local automotive businesses in our area, just mentioning PINKS practically sold itself. Not so for the stocker. They don't know L/Stock from a dune buggy. And you're right, the average fans don't give a hoot about classes, but they will once we have a way to make class racing palatable again.

Bracket racing may be growing there and Louisiana, but have you followed the trends the last few years? Tracks across the country are scaling back their weekly bracket programs in favor of imports, grudge racing, and heads up events, with some dropping brackets all together. My statement on electronics was about the effect it's had on bracket racer participation at a local level and nothing to do with PINKS. Again, your preaching to the choir.

Sticker sponsors began pulling the plug well before the economy tanked as a result of racers taking advantage of programs and fraudulent claims instead of being true product representatives. Racers trying to collect like they are under contract forced others to reconsider too. That's sad because it makes us look like money siphons. Years ago my father wrote Champion about trying certain plugs. They sent him stickers and a couple sets of plugs. He put the stickers on the car, took pictures, and wrote them back thanking them along with the photos. He also gave them a briefing on the product. This resulted in a 4 year deal with shipments of various heat range plugs every month. That's how we should think.

And what's wrong with spending $60 dollar entry fee? You get at least 4 runs, not 2. You pay $250 or more for NHRA and lucky to get 2 runs before first round. What's the difference? Many bitch about how they're treated, about time slots or being filler, complaining we don't get adequate exposure. But when something like PINKS comes along everyone's quick to tear it apart. NHRA glory days are OVER. We're riding the coat tails of the pros, and we're stuck paying the bill. Pretty soon that bill won't cover our welcome and we'll be replaced with something more practical. Jeggie, Garlits, and others won't be enough to save class racing. We need to roll with the changes, or the changes will roll over us.

To every Stock and Super Stock racer reading this, I've elected to search for a solution to the complaints we've all made instead of whining about what I don't like. But I'm only going to waste so much time looking for a way to make a difference with this, then I'm going to move on. The decision rests with everyone. See my other post with Rich's request to us.

(p.s...to those trash talking Rich Christensen...go to his website www.richchristensen.com and learn a little about the guy before you pass judgement.)

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Gary,
Dont think this is falling on deaf ears, We took three cars to the Pinks in Sonoma last year and had aprox 10 other people we new with car's running, I will say we did have a great time, pulled the stickers off and made em look like street cars, Did we get picked NO but had a very close shot at the mid ten second field. Three cars in the range of 10,11,12 seconds. The biggest thing I noticed was my familly was able to handle sitting and watching as we ran down the track, No long drawn out delay or sitting by the trailer for 4 hours between runs always cars going down the track.
The Cool thing I enjoyed when sitting in the staging lanes was watching guys scratch there heads and the looks on there faces when the hoods were up in the lanes, Had a few guys asking where the NOS was hidden lol.
There are three other guys in our camp that have been racing NHRA since the sixties and for them to say they had a great time it meant something.
So when Pinks is back in Sonoma this Sept for 60 bucks for a chance at winning 13 grand like my friend George Diaz did last year and almost again in Bakersfield
IM IN !!! And you get the cash before you leave the track...

Bob Aceves #746 E/SA

Re: PINKS vs Class Racing
 

Floyd, I see that you are really not interested in racing Pinks All Out. However, I would like to really help anyone who has been thinking of trying it, to make the decision to give it a try. You mentioned advertisers and I will relate a story. Several racers, who were registered at Z-Max, were at Rockingham on a Saturday night a few weeks prior to Z-Max. Steve had the Mopar Show there during the day and at 6:00 pm the track was prepped and cars testing and tuning for Z-Max ran 1/4 mile runs. We were in the pits and was approached by a lady and her husband about putting a "Pink" decal on our car to advertise her jewelery and candy company at Pinks All Out at Z-Max. She does various craft shows, etc. She had the oval decals printed, gave us money to help cover expenses to Z-Max. Guess what, look at the re-run of Z-Max Pinks All Out. When they demonstrate the "go or go-home" box, the tape stops just as that silver Duster crosses the finish line, and there is that little "pink" oval decal. You can't read the decal on TV; however, NHRA Photographers, put together photos from the race and there, in the photo, that little "Pink" decal.

Bob, when we raced at Pinks, the racing was non-stop from 7:30 am to 10:30 pm on Saturday. As you know they have 12 classes and they ran non-stop at Z-Max due to being able to switch lanes. Oil down in the left pair of lanes, we switched to the right pair while they cleaned the left. We race as a family, my wife has been dealing with drag racing in our family for over 35 years. At Pinks All Out the whole family went, children, grandchildren, the whole group. Every crew member has a seat ticket, therefore, between qualifying runs they could go up in the stands and watch the races. An my family did the same. They stayed there until they would hear our class called to staging and then meet us in the staging lanes. At Z-Max, there were actually some vendors there that catered to children, games, etc. and the ladies at the races, along with the usual tee shirts and parts vendors. As you said, in the staging lanes at a Pinks All Out event is even fun. The next classes are called to staging far enough ahead that everyone is just standing around, bench racing, waiting for their class.

If you are undecided about Pinks All Out, do yourself a favor, take the same $80 to $90 that you would use as an entry fee to a Stock/ Superstock combo race, for one day of racing, beginning at 2:00 pm, enter Pinks all Out. Be sure to go on Friday, your entry is for two full days of racing, run 4 or 5 runs, have fun with everyone there on Friday night when the cooking begins just don't eat too much. Then up early on Saturday morning walk out into the pit area. There are 450 to 500 competitors there, all with the same type of cars you like to race, the coffee is going at almost every pit spot. You are called to the staging lanes at 7:30am and the runs down the track begins.