Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

[QUOTE=Jack Matyas;177097]Jack,
It takes a little time to develop remedies for situations like this one. We have more options than you offer. There is a fully developed thrid option that will soon make it's way through the proper channels. It has taken 14 months to put it together with very little expense. You'll probably hear about it by the end of the year.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

[QUOTE=Bruce Noland;177128]Bruce ------------- With promises like this soon I'll offer you a job with me here in the "Christmas City" ---------------- selling "Pre-Owned Vehicles " .........................Just give it up and spit out your new ideas ! ! ! !

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

[QUOTE=Jack Matyas;177131]Jack,
I never said anything about promises. Sorry, I have no interest in your trade. All organizations are accountable to outside agencies. Especially those organizations that pretend to be omnipotent. And finally my ideas aren't new.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Records used to be worth points. An et record was the same points as winning 2 rounds, a MPH record same as one round. Why did that change? Also, I agree qualifying should be worth some points. Some thing simple, like ten points for #1, on down to 1 point for #10, or something similar. Nothing hard about that.

It would be very simple to put a stock vehicle on a chassis dyno, and if that number is higher than the factory rating, start off using that as the factor. It will be lower than flywheel hp, but not as far off as some new ratings. Even the LS1 and LT1 won't make more an a couple rwhp more (if any, that varies car-to-car) than the factory rating. They will a little with some tuning, but not like they come from the dealer. Nothing complicated about that. Heck, bring 'em to Tulsa and I'll do it for free. :D

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

[QUOTE=Bruce Noland;177128]Bruce -- Are you sure you're not really a politician - your answer has more questions than answers ........1) how much time ?
2) who is we ?
3) what other options ?
4) what is the fully developed third option ?
5) what are the proper channels ?
6) how much is very little expense ?
7) when if not by the end of year ?
Sales are slow this afternoon -- could you tell ? Inquiring minds want to know .................Omnipotent ??? I'll let it go ..............

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Jack,
A group of racers got together to ask a few questions. There are several other options still on the table. None of them require serious cash investments. We are very serious about this venture. That's all for now.

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For 50 years stock eliminator meant a car generally available to the public that was street legal. It meant a motor available in that particular car that you could drive home. Why were Ford and Chrysler afraid to race the cars they sell at their dealers? I'll tell you why, they are a bunch of whores. They along with NHRA have used and abused their power to take unfair advantage of all of us. There are two problems with this whole deal. First all of the motors are grossly under factored. Second they never built these cars as street cars. In fact you can't even order a mustang with the crate motors. Billy, I realize I' probably beating a dead horse but I just can't go quietly into the night.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

It hasn't been that way for quite some time now.


I feel that this comment is true. What about all the 1000' passes all the other guys have been making for years now? Is that bad too? How do you factor anything that isn't run wide open and then goes through the barn?


With all the stuff that the Feds make the factories install for safety, emissions, etc. I think that these cars are a move in the right direction. It is a crying shame to tear down a brand new car and take half of it to the dump. Especially since Stock hasn't been "stock" for a lot of years. I do wish that they had been built with production motors.


I feel the same way!

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Greg, I truely do feel for any racer with an "old" combo right now. Being the "bottom feeder" that I am I won't have to deal with any new combos as they will probably never build anything again that will fit R,T,U,or V. What DOES keep me going is the fact that I still think that I might just have a win or two left in these old eyes and the thought of beating up on that new stuff. I would hope that you won't go "quietly into the night". I know I'll be the guy going howling, screaming, gouging and biting!

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Jeff,

You keep mentioning your trucks.


I did a little research and the last time you ran a truck at Indy was in 2002. You qualified 58th at 1.011 under the index. That is very far from not qualifying. I'm sure there are a ton of people who would love to be able to qualify in the top half of the field at Indy.

Could you please post a link to where you didn't qualify at Indy those last two years? Because I can't find it.

Also, I believe you sold your truck to Kelly Thomas, correct? Kelly qualified at .947 under the index last year at Mission. Granted, it's not 1.95 under the old indexes, but it's still pretty good.


-Toby

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Darren, until recently Stock still required a production car intended for street use. It was that way for the specific purpose of keeping ringers out. That rule was rescinded for the specific purpose of allowing these cars in. You can bet it was why Stock and Super Stock were "taken away" from Bob and Wesley.

People have been tossing street equipment for decades, including Federally mandated safety and emissions devices. It would be fine if NHRA were to make allowances or concessions in shipping weight to allow for this. But it has proven to be a terrible idea for them to allow purpose built race cars in Stock. No one told you that you had to go buy a new car to make a race car. You may have decided to do that, and that is fine.

The truth is, you're hoping GM will follow suit and put a Camaro ringer in the guide, so you're okay with all of this. At this point, I don't care, because NHRA sure isn't going to make this right. But I'm not going to say it is the right thing to do, I'm just going to say that since it is how things are, I'd just as soon GM did it too. But I'm not going to hold my breath, since they haven't even put the production cars in the guide.

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The last time I didn't get close to 1.01 under. The trucks were shuffled into stock and that killed me. That is the truck. Maybe Kelley is a better tuner than me. And I have never gotten in with the Super Bee. Maybe on the trucks I just forgot and went home.

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This will solve the problem. Make the AHFS 1.00, then take only the class winners to race on Sunday. Problem solved in 3 months. But then again I don't really care, although I'm building a 383 for stock in a b body wagon. It will be 280, the same motor in the cuda is 297 I think.

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Let me see if I can make someone's day. I think Mopar will make 50 2010 Drag Pak cars, I think Mopar will offer a body in white, contents yet to be determined. I think Mopar will offer a 392 Hemi. I have an idea a blower might be in the works. I think Mopar might offer an assemble-it-yourself motor package for the Gen III Hemi's. I think the base motors that the Drag Pak Hemi's were made from are or will be available as crate motors at a very resonable price. And I think the Fords have announced several motors, and there are I think Camaro body-in-white available, but no combos done or approved. Maybe some of the Ford guys could chime in here on what is available.

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I like the 392 with a blower, for 2010..

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

You and I both know that a large percentage of the 60's to early 70's muscle cars were purpose built to be competetive in Stock. The street part was secondary.


Agree.


My suggestions to GM were that I would like to see a production motor in a stripped down Camaro, so please don't make BS statements like that.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Why not make it .75 under then take class winners ONLY to race the eliminator. Problem solved in less than a month ! If the HP to shipping wt ratio puts any combo at less than 7.00 lbs per HP then they race Super Stock only. Another problem solved.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

"You and I both know that a large percentage of the 60's to early 70's muscle cars were purpose built to be competetive in Stock. The street part was secondary."


That is totally untrue and not even remotely accurate in my opinion. I was a teenager during the musle car era and everyone was eager to see what was coming out from Detroit. If they had the money they could buy a car and do anything they wanted with it........yes many did race their cars but the vast majority were weekend warriors at best.....NOT serious racecars....Sales were driven by the magazines and the cars were affordable.......You could buy a brand new Muscle car for $3000....or LESS....Still a lot of money at the time but affordable.......It was just a matter of picking your options........The car companies had an "arms race" going and did it to sell cars......Winning on Sunday...selling on Monday........The top of the line cars helped sell the lower HP models......No way Detroit built these cars solely to win in Stock........Winning certainly didn't hurt sales.....Stock wasn't even where most of them ended up anyway.....Super Stock was where they were after the categorie was created in 1967.......SS/A to SS/J and SS/AA to SS/JA....
Almost all the cars I can think of were production vehicles readily available with very few "ringers".....

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Let's be honest.

From the mid 60s to the early 70s we street raced most of them way more than we took them to the drag strip.

While in Indianapolis (mid 60s) we did go to Raceway park and Muncie on the weekends but we lit'em up during the week every chance we got. I remember lots of racing was on unfinished freeways or a deserted road late at night.

In LA (early 70s) there were many places (Rinaldi Blvd in the San Fernando Valley had an unfinished housing project that over look the boulevard for spectators - so they did not get in the way) hell we raced the cars we drove on the street every day, even after we turned them into race cars.

I certainly did not by a car to run stock back then

I bought it because I thought it was a ..…well a.….I don't know maybe it was just fun.

Might have to do it again - crap zero to 60 in under 6 seconds was fast back then

Not now - now we talk about zero to a 100 under 6 seconds

Just thought I would lighten up this thread a little

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Let's do this if you run, let's say 10.30 @ 110 MPH. You get HP , Monday
Otherwise its just a very expensive bracket car bracket racing, get over it
Wells Bros
D/S 5034

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Read what I said again. I believe that I stated that they were built to be competetive. What you did with them and how you ordered them was up to you.

I'm not as old as you guys, but I have stacks of old reviews sitting around from that era. I would bet that 90% mention which Stock class the car will fit (especially Cars, Hot Rod, etc.).

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If you really want the hp figures fixed just change the eliminator to the old way of running on the national record.That would cut down the fields for a year but it would bring out the true potential of these under powered combos,both old and new.But we know that NHRA wouldn't have the balls to do that.
And Gump,look at the times the old muscle cars ran back then,granted they were on the bias ply street tires.But my present day 6 cylinder Gremlin could dust 90% of them,no matter how they came from the factory.Even alot of the current day fart pipe cars could do the same.
NHRA opened the barn doors a long time ago and it's probably too late to get the horse back in the corral.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

I, yes I have been asked "not to feed the animals" but well, I have a very solid opinion on this I expressed it before and was well disagreed with.

When this thread Started, I HONESTLEY Believed there was an honest question, not a disquised reason to rant.

This has been flogged to death in this and 97 other threads.

Why didnt you title the thread "DP and CJ Ratings" ? Well....I have an idea few would have responded, why did you feel it neccesary to disquise your question and intent ?

I think (and would even if we DIDNT have a DP, yes really) that this is GOOD for Stock, and Superstock and the NHRA, the Manufactuers, the Fans, The Press....look at the balance sheet...its good for more than its bad for, unfortunatley the people who feel it bad are a pretty good crew that ive been fortunate to become a part of.

I, I do have empathy, Ive been there, I have been there in spades. So they werent cars...so what my investment, work and effort were no different, and the changes led to a pretty long hiatus from bikes.But I DO understand 100% , Now we have Wera, and AHRMA and well...its fun, its not "spotlight time" but if thats not youre reason for doing it (and it isnt mine) then its awesome.

Racing, well I think that a LOT of racers are looking at it wrong, they see racing PURLEY as a Competitive sport, and for THEM it is, but you have to understand RACERS themselves are only a Small, (small but irreplacable and important) part of Racing.

Racing , to the REST of the world is one of 2 things, a vertical market for sale of products to, OR ENTERTAINMENT....yes pure and simple ENTERTAINMENT.

Do you really think 98.5% of people in the stands, the ones that gate revenue comes from, the ones that the Sponsors are targeting, the ones that make National events even feasible from a cost offset, do you think they care 1 bit about keeping the new cars out or rated right ?

You feel you are the reason for racing and everything should cater to your perception of "fair play" but understand you (and I) are a small , understandably critical but small part.

Who do you think they are more interested in making happy, a small contingent of drivers or everyone else ?

I mean am I the only person that understands how the real adult grown up world works ? You live in it and adapt, or you perish its simple, very simple.

How many buggy whip makers do you know ?

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Rock; anybody that knows Brian, knows that he always likes to show what he has. You guys on the other hand only run as fast as you have to. Funny how a car that was a 9.40&50 car last year is all of a sudden a 9.0 car now. Brians' combo is near the end of its' development life, where yours' is just getting started. You ran as fast in D as Brian did in C. So what do you think you would have ran with 200lbs out as a C car. We all know your car should be a C car now at the weight your running now. You ran neck and neck with Allen Wade last year, now he doesn't stand a chance of ever beating you, short of a red-light or you break.

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Chris,I think the thing that rankles peoples nuts is the wildly miss factoring that's been allowed in the past few years.Look at some of the runs in the past few years.
An example is the record in T/SA.I set it in 2006 at 13.51 (1.19 under the then index of 14.70).Bob Shaw,who is the master of obscure combos,and I say that affectionately,reset
it at 13.27 (1.43 under).The current R/SA is now (1.49 under).The Q/SA is (1.48 under).
And there's more.These guys are flying and I'm sure they have worked on their cars,but
going about 1.50 under should trigger a red flag for NHRA to look at the factoring on these combos.
The examples I've used are all combos that most guys won't run and the only ones who have to contend with them are few,unlike the Mustangs and Challengers.
We're just now starting to get some grumbling from the H/SA guys over the recent runs by Jeffs car.With the release of the GM cars it will only get worse for those running the current older combos.If we all hit the lotto it wouldn't be a problem.The only thing is future races will look like a NASCAR race with 3 world cars in competition.
As I mentioned in another thread,running off the indexes for one year will reign in the combos that those running them chose to compete with.Otherwise they will never show what they have.
Now that's real life.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Look Drooze lighten up man - Stock eliminator racing is not the center of the universe.

I find this forum entertaining at times - You are over thinking it - I was not the one who brought up the DPs or the blown Fords – I asked a legitimate question not one of the whiners said the guys with the advantage should help change the issue (if there is one)

I have "Tapped Out" (UFC lingo) - I am going to sell my car and buy one of the new ones and so will others - the same guys who were able to make their cars go fast today will be on top of the heap when it is all said and done. The same engine builders who know what they are doing will be just as good with the new combinations.

Not sure just yet (lot of research to do) but I think one of the crate motor combos will be best – probably the 360 like Jeffs. The others will probably promote themselves right into Super Stock. I will have a wicked fast new car - I just hope Chevrolet does not jump in the water after I buy a Mopar (just can not buy a Ford).

Unfortunately - as you have said the same guys who win today will continue to win - Mark Faul, Jody and Toby Lang, David Rampy, Dan Fletcher, the Biondos, the Emmons, the Burtons, Lee Zane need I go on - sorry for those guys I left out.

Believe me, a lot of racers in these tough times do not want to spend the money - but some will - those of us who can not stop, are ready to show new racers that stock eliminator is more than money.

An H/SA as fast as my current C/SA ridiculous but I can hang.

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None of the guys you've mentioned have one of the let's say "favored cars".If they expect to keep winning they'll have to jump on board.
A friend of mine in Div 1 is a killer driver.He was running a s/b camaro in D/E Auto.He was on the verge of winning a few times,till he ran into a heads up with some very fast hombre's.Needless to say he's still win less.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Well, I knew exactly what he was referring to when I read his post.


-Toby

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Maybe blowing up another motor today made me grouchy.

I actually am looking forward to building something "different" ....something not for the respect of others but for my OWN satisfaction, thats one of the reasons well....Im still looking still thinking. The SS/GT 72 will happen but thats a quick and easy build (in comparison to the DP) maybe like 4 weeks if I was shopside for all of it.

But Im looking for something "off the hook" something bizzare...that fits me well.....Here are some of the cars I looked into, that are not in the Guides, Maserati TC (by Chrysler), Olds Aurora,

I missed my oppotunity last week with a cosworth Vega for 1200 bucks no rust....yes I really passed it up dumbass I am.... the head availablity scares me.

The truth is I am betting, I mean betting with anyting that there are probably 25-30 easy out of the park combos in the newer stuff people havent found or wrung out.

Look into a new Camaro ? Get or help get the 6 in the guide, look into the motor its an 11.3 :1 motor with Direct injection and VVT I will lay cash money that that car with the RIGHT fuel system is good for 2 under wherever they put it even at 300hp (the "advertised hp") Ditch the IRS get a good tranny behind it....But I guess Im just so excited about DI and VVT on the same engine.....I gotta get my hands on one...

I have 3 records to set before I get one (the thing about the old man buying it was a joke) but If / when I can set 3 records over the year THAT is my reward to myself. (and Im only 1/2 serious on that as well.....3 records no Im not that crazy that I think its no effort to do that, quite the opposite, hence if I do it, well I need to reward myself:D

Youre right Stock Elim isnt life or death far from it, it is enjoyment, and while Im new to it, I enjoy it, its always been some kinds of racing, and I guess that why I see things different Im "new" to S/SS so I dont have the same preconcieved notions or "history" with it.

Sooooo many people have mentioned the mean age of S/SS racers. I dont know why that is, honestly I think part of it are the lack of available newer cars for the 20-30 year olds to race, or relate to. Especially the ones who didnt grow up in a family with Gears in their DNA helix like so very many here.

The one thing in Drag racing I like, and I really dont like the brackets, the one thing I LOVE about Stock Eliminator and I havent even got to experience it, is if I meet another car of the same class its a heads up run.....THAT I will live for....THAT is Racing in my opinion....brackets ugh....but what other class in NHRA Racing can I end up in a heads up run that ISNT against a dial ? (and affordable ?)

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Drooze Your Dad must really love you and hate his money.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Lol...the motor in question was in my truck, the "Old Girl" gave up the ghost in the mountains of WV with trailer in tow. Hes been at me to buy a new one for 2 years and Ive resisted...she was over 189k when she well......decided to start a knocking and banging. 5 trips back and forth to GA since Feb and no signs of anything at all, even this morning monster oil pressure, sounded like a wrist pin dinging 20 miles back, big mountain hill, rattle and pop.....

Funny thing is its still running great with a rod loose, and oil pressure is at over 40lbs....musta broke with the big end still on the journal....oil looks like glitter, but I actually drove about 5 miles off the expressway, then 5 miles through town. Still running. Im gonna fix her when I have time. But I have to take his advice and go buy myself a new truck (I just hate to Im a cheap SOB) and as much as we joke about him spending all his money and this and that, I cover many of the costs.....its a "inside" joke between us about him spending my inheritance.

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Darren, that does not agree with the emails and private messages we swapped, but if that is what you are going with, that's fine, too. We both know that no production engine, even in a "stripper" is going to compete with the purpose built race combinations. If you intend to spend thousands on a new car combination that cannot hope to compete, well, good for you. If GM is stupid enough to spend hundreds of thousands to do it, well, too bad, they're even worse off than I thought they were.

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Andys Dad
Actually you were the one who brought up the DPs and blown fords. Your second post, just four posts in.

May name my GT car "The Ethical Dilemma". But I guess I would have to finish it first.

Do I think the DPs and Blown Fords are under rated? Yes, not the first combos to be under rated but likely # 1 and #2 in amount. But is it immoral or unethical to run one. I don't think so... . Unless running any other combo that has been under rated is. Unless running the upper class car for the advantage of chasing and having the opportunity of the opponent redlighting first is. Unless running a paper car, an LS1 Cam or FB, a Corvette (used to be in SP not S and SS), alum heads that didnt come on the car and many other examples of advantaged racers take into account when deciding on a car/combo. There are some who will disagree but if it is in the rulebook, classification guide and accepted by NHRA it is legal and there-fore not unethical or immoral.

Unless anyone who runs a car that they preceive as having any advantage over the competition is unethical and immoral. Few racers pick a combo because it is disadvantaged, but rather for the advantages they see in the combo.

As usual, the above is just another opinion. One difference between man and the rest of the animal kingdom is we have the power of rationalization. So I have used that power to justify my choosing of an under rated engine. Am I unethical and immoral? I never thought myself that, but I guess some do. Remember glass houses.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Look the whole point was -
1) Are these new cars/combos grossly underrated?
2) Should the guys with these cars help get it changed?

I think the answers would be overwhelmingly
Yes to number 1
and
No to number 2

That is the point

Fair play, sportsmanship, integrity, morality (whatever you want to call it) need not be considered when it comes to taking an authorized advantage - at least when it comes to competitive racing

Now let’s move on to the four wide circus and stop beating this issue, which NHRA is not going to do anything about

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Quote Andy's dad:

Now let’s move on to the four wide circus and stop beating this issue, which NHRA is not going to do anything about

My quote:
Uh,you gave the horse the first shot. I believe.

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BIG Time Ed, not only that that WASNT Clearly what the thread started as , but I bit hook line and sinker a perfect "troll" THEN the real reason became apparent.

But to Andys's Dad I would say for #1 Probably they will get rated up already have CJ can only run AA, DP now only A and AA no longer B and what 4 have been trackside ?

For #2 I would say "CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR" Something is going to happen and youre probably not going to like it if you dont like things so far. Nuff said.

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I guess you missed my previous post a few pages ago

Have to read them all

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

I just went back and read the emails. I'm really not sure where you are coming from. Maybe you could send me something that backs up what you are saying?

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Quite possible will check, driving , blowing trucks up in WV, running to Cleve to get another truck, back to pickup the trailer, back to akron, back to cleveland then back to akron in the snow, its been a busy 2 days so I may have missed it.

Re: Hope I do not regret this post and I hope it is taken as just an honest question.
 

Darren, I'm not going to go to all the hassle. I lost the emails in a crash a couple of weeks back, and I get so many private messages I have to clean stuff out every few days. I've got the original Word document saved where I laid out what GM had to do in order to compete. You said you agreed and it was pretty much what you had said to GM. Your only real disagreement with me was that I said it needed one of the single plane intakes, and you wanted to use the production style intake.