Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Take a lot of this with a grain of salt... Most of the ones whining are just letting off steam... Check the qualifying sheets... How many of them are there??? I have found most of the racers are great and will help you out... Different at the track than here... And by the way I'm DP #43.. Hope to be out in early fall.... Mack

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

As others have said, take the comments with a grain of salt. Its a sport that invokes passion, especially among those who have invested decades of blood sweat and tears to build and perfect their combination only to have it put at risk with the stroke of a pen....there is a very legitimate observation about the parity or lack thereoff....but its the passion that validates the sport.......go to your local stock/superstock combos, divisional races for both the NHRA and IHRA, the .90 racers, etc and I am sure you will find good people enjoying something they choose to be doing, when they could be doing something else.....

Eric

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

"Geez some of you guys are real jerks. Why would I want to race with you?

I am on the list for a 2010 DP and have been reading these forums to educate myself and learn what kind of men I would be racing with. I've been a Mopar man since high school 20 years ago. I'm not too impressed with some of you so far. Being upset about HP is one thing, but personal attacks against DP and CJ owners/ drivers is a whole 'nother ball game. I thought you guys wanted new blood in your sport? Some of you don't act that way.

If this is the kind of reception I can expect every weekend, I'll go back to road racing where competitors are actually willing to help each other out."

Well said. The road racing deal I can't agree with, and other venues of drag racing are not at all like a lot of these guys, but you are right. There is more complaining among this group than six kindergarten classes. But, for sheer entertainment, it's hard to beat.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

cmon charles robert...calm down
the only thing that amazes me is the number of the sheep who didnt see this coming !

only thing upsets me is that 128 of them can qaulify for any race and keep the other guys out... that sux...which is why wally's class winner rule was so important !

other than that i like bob shaw, jeff tueton and irvin johns... i count them among my friends and among the finest people ive ever met at the races... so great job guys !

captain jack

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

I have a question. If some one showed up with a real Challenger Say an 08 with the correct engine that came in the car would it be legal to run? Are they in the class guide or are they only in there with the create motors.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

It took me 4 months AND meeting several here in Person.

Its
a) the internet and entertainment and its easy to type sounding pissed, if you were to talk in person it would be a friendly disagreement in most cases, not a "seemingly" foaming at the mouth rant

b)There are some real douchebags here, but actually less than it seems. FAR less, I have met and talked to people who my first opinion was "prick" to learn it couldnt have been farther from the truth. AND some of their advice I value greatly, it just seems opinionated when presented here on the web.

c)Many of the "douchebags" I have learned ARENT active racers, nuff said. And known by noone except on here. nuff said on that too.

d)I make myself a big target I know that , but because someone is nasty to me HERE does NOT mean they are like that in person. And I met a few in person I honestly didnt belive were the same people as on here, its a persons way of communicating online to TRY to show emotion inflection etc.

e)Calling names here or in real life is bull. That I will never agree with.

f)At Atlanta I had people doing everything they could to help without trying to sound like they were giving advice or overstepping bounds, the truth Is I dont mind, I have no bounds to overstep and if someone comes up to me and says, You screwed up youre a dumbass here is how you do it, I will actually listen. And HAVE after Atlanta

Do NOT let the "online" experience jade or turn you away it is COMPLETLEY different in person, 1000%......

Just my observations from being in and going through the same opinions.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

The advantage to meeting people in person, is that it is a lot easier to figure out who is really offering herlpful advice, and who is simply looking for an outlet to vent their frustrations....

Hint: I have only met a very, very few folks at the track who were of the second variety...

Something about the internet gives some people bigger "virtual stones" than in real life.

As for the cries for an instant boost to SS for Fords and Dodges, it wasn't done that way in the past. So why should it be done now?

Let it alone. It is simply a moment in time, and time will handle it. Faster cars will get HP added. If all of these cars are such monsters, how long will people keep their feet off the go pedal when we all race to go fast...

Protecting the index, is a concern for the guys who don't yet have their car. Once you get one of these "rockets". You want to find out if you can reach the moon. We wouldn't have blown up two engines already, if all we wanted to do was to run the index. We could probably run close to the index with the engine in my stock 2008 SRT8. Hmmmm, the warranty is almost up on it.... maybe we will run that engine at Indy............. Or not.. The car will probably be a SS by then.....

I would think that all of the guys complaining about the current classes would be rooting for the guys who are currently running these modern classics to be busting the index and getting HP added.

Anyway, newcomers are welcome here and at the track. No matter who says otherwise.

And oh yes, if you are getting a 2010 DP, make sure your bank account has at least twice as much money as you think you need. Because, you will definitely need more... Welcome to the Jungle!

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Deep pockets can definately help you go fast, but to win an eliminator title you have to be able to drive. Most of these guys who post big numbers are usually long gone by the semi's.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

I love Mopars but how can you call a car that Is'nt really street legal that comes with a Caravan axle in place of the rear end a Stock Eliminator car???????????????????

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

A driver like John Calvert in a new cobra jet will work!LOL

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

How so?? Please elaborate...

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Didn't he WIN the Winternationals in a NEW CobraJet last year ???

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

In a manner of speaking.. No disrespect to John who's cars I love and he certainly can drive but as I recall he was driving one of Brett Hyjack's CJ's. John had the faster car every round and 4 or 5 opponents went red. One broke on the start line, he had one bye and only one round required him to run someone down and get on the brakes for the win. Some days it's just your turn and this was obviously Johns. A win is a win but he got a lot of help on the way.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Manner of speaking ?? I don't think so ... he won the Winternationals fair and square --- not by hook or crook or being lucky . Drivers like Mr.Calvert earn respect and he certainly has mine ...........And you should know that putting yourself into a position to win is key -- and he did that as always ! !

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

When several people go red against you, there's usually a reason.................

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

That is because Calvert is a well known racer who tends to go rounds no matter what he is driving. I think lining up beside him or any other of the more sucessfull racers would be cause for cutting the light a little more tight than usual.................

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

That was my point. It was pretty obvious, I really didn't see a need to spell it out.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Yep, I see that now, I think I need more coffee, these late nights are not good to meLOL!

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Alan, I know you are aware of this and I've said it on this forum before...
fact: the faster car has the advantage.... period. Having one of the fastest cars in the eliminator is a perfect example of what Jack said in one of the previous posts..... "And you should know that putting yourself into a position to win is key -- ".

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

" fact: the faster car has the advantage.... period. "


At least someone here finally admits it.

Enter... Bill Dedman

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Hey Ed, NHRA says so.... And no matter what any of us think here, its their ball game and we all play by their rules or we move on the another game... JMO.......:cool:

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Alan Quote=I really didnt see a need to spell it out...Uhhhhhh.....ok maybe its because Im dim sometime, maybe its because I dont have familiarity with all the players and are smart enough to know who I "should" be afraid of, (in this case I was familiar with this driver and his abilities, not personally but from reads)

Sorry Alan....there was one dip**** (ala me) who was wondering and honest "No why ?" Lol.......

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Mark; that was then; this is now....
I don't have it in me (relax, Ed) to go down that bunny trail one more time.

After beating that horse to death, only to realize that I had done such a miserable job of explaining the facts, that even the drivers of "s-l-o-w" cars failed to see the value in a worse red light system, I moved on, bought a '64 Valiant and a slant 6 (30psi boosted turbo project,) wherein I may be the second to leave at my bracket track, sometime...

Outta gas in Arkensaw....

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Matt Cramers montrosity ? (and I say that in a good way)

I mean how many 30lb boots 64 slant six valliants are there ... :eek:

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Nope, Chris, I'm a little slow on the uptake; Matt is about ten years ahead of my home-brew project, but we'll get there. I am attempting to catch up, somewhat, by adhering to the K.I.S.S. policy with a 750 Holley, an MSD 7-AL and a 904 with a manual valve body.

MIGHT be up and running later this year... Talk's cheap; we'll see..... (You know the deal...) LOL!

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Hey I was gonna go with blow throughs on my 5.7 turbo for the 72 chally....

You outta see the size of the fan matts got now for that thing, I think I could rig it into a 100horse APU turbine with little effort....I mean I swear its a big diesel fan but its not.....Ill ask him what it is next time I talk to him....its stupid big.....but then again cooler air....so who knows.Looks like a good candiate to turn that slant 6 into keychain souvineers :)

Rock on...are you doing your own blow through conversion ?

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

I rarely ever post on these boards, but this topic is just nuts. I understand people's frustration with fast combinations, but why does everyone complain instead of go work on their own stuff? If you are running a combination that has been beaten to death over the life of the car, i feel for you - but complaining will never make you fast again. It is absolutely ludicrous that everyone has been raising hell over the fact that Ford and Chrysler have played by the rules set forth in the NHRA rulebook and have purpose built cars within the guidelines to be competitive. Having factory involvement again Stock and Super Stock is a blessing and will hopefully keep our classes thriving into the future. Everyone in any class can be capable of winning, no matter how fast you are (as long as you can run the index obviously). It's not like the guys with the new cars are out here winning every event, so who cares how fast they go? I think you should all be impressed that a boat of a Drag Pak car with a 372 cubic inch motor with no power adders can outrun an old school 426 hemi with two carburetors!! Believe it or not, this is supposed to happen - it's evolution and progression. If a new performance car can't outrun an old performance car - the new one has some terrible engineering involved.

I know this has to be a generational thing, because I've heard the impressive story numerous times about how Ben Wenzel bought his 1967 Z-28 Camaro new, brought it to the racetrack and won the US Nationals with it in 1967. Now why can't someone go and buy a new Cobra Jet and come out and do the same thing without being harassed? If anyone wants to see Stock and Super Stock continue, there needs to be a progression with technology and reason to attract new, youthful drivers or it will be dead in 15 years. I don't have any demographic numbers, but when you walk through the staging lanes for Stock or Super Stock it's very evident that roughly 75% of these guys won't be heavily involved within the next 10 to 15 years simply because of their age! You guys hate seeing new cars come out strong, but when you were younger and used to go to your local racetrack - were you pumped to see a 32 Chevy make a run? No, you were all jacked up about your '67 Cobra Jets, '69 Camaros, '68 Hemi's etc... Those cars were all relatively new and high performance. Now why would a youthful guy/girl want to come out to a drag strip and watch a full class of 45 year old cars putt down the track? Nowadays people are educated on fuel injection and computers. A carburetor hasn't been on a factory car in 20 years!!! Just because many of you get frustrated on the new technology, doesn't mean it shouldn't be involved in present day class racing.

So many of you want a new class for all of the new factory race cars, well - how about NHRA just creates a class for you instead. Nostalgia Stock. Otherwise, get back to work on your car not your keyboard.

Mike Mans

*** This post was not meant to insult or criticize anyone with older generation cars, I truly am a fan of them and appreciate old school muscle and performance.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Mike -Very well written -- and thanks - now there are two of us that think this way.......

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Thanks you Mike for a very thoughtful post. I think you're spot on with where we're at with stock and super stock right now. I bought my first new car in 1966, a Hemi Belvedere, raced it for a few years, and still have it. So when 4 years ago I decided to try stock class racing again, I naturally related to the cars of my youth. I wish I could somehow accurately express the emotions I felt as a 23 year old competing with a new factory muscle car at the height of the factory musclecar era. Pure excitement and adrenaline don't do it justice. Now I'm racing a 46 year old Hemi car and still having a lot of fun. To me this is all about having fun. And as I've told many of my friends, if I were twenty years younger, I'd be all over a new DP Challenger. I won't be able to do this for a whole lot longer, but as long as I'm having fun, I'll be there. And you're right, the odds of running up against a new generation car and losing isn't a whole lot different that just losing a round because of missing the tree or the dial. I think we all need to just focus on the long view, have fun, and try to think of keeping this going for the generations to follow. Steve

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Mike,

I agree with everything you have said, except for what I have quoted above. The new cars are great for the sport, but not for those directly affected by their existence within their class.

For someone who has maybe 1 or 2 other SS/CS car at an event you enter other than Indy, your comments hold no substance with me . Until you run one 4th round heads up at a National event, you wont understand. You can probably count the total amount of heads up races you've had in CS over your career on 1 hand. While most anyone who runs in the same classes as these new cars have 5 heads up or so by mid season. This number will continue to go way up, and your winning percentage will go way down when you line up to one of these grossly under factored cars.

The problem right now might be small because there aren't that many out there.... but by the end of the year there will be around 10 of these at every race here in D1. The chances of running into one of these cars become much more of a possibility. Bringing a knife to a gun fight is not my idea of fun.

I guess I should go work on my stuff now...I know i have 3 tenths somewhere to catch these guys.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Mike Mans,

I worked most of yesterday on the flow bench and lathe (making test valves, you know changing back angle, stem radius, surface finish, and waist diameter) and picked maybe two to three HP. I do need help on finding the remaining 75 to 85 HP I need to make it a race in a heads up situation.

Breaks over back to work!

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Mr Larry check your PM's

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

[QUOTE=Dave Ficacci;180106

Until you run one 4th round heads up at a National event, you wont understand. ....... but by the end of the year there will be around 10 of these at every race here in D1. The chances of running into one of these cars become much more of a possibility.

Dave -- I feel your pain as I too lost earlier this year to a heads-up at a National event during the 4th round - but to an old car - so the roles were reversed . As for there being 10 of these at every event -- that may be a premature thought ..............and they won't all be in the same class if they did show up .

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Well Dave, to point 1....I would love to know (being the nosy DP guy I am what 10 cars will be on the track ?) Im serious....

To point two I was recently notified today of the cause for our failures the secret squirrels we ordered were trained in china and had counterfit SSQ tags affixed at the distributor. They have promised us a new batch of Secret Squirrels guarenteed to work, although not trained yet to correct my spelling. Let me know if you need any

:D

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

I totally understand what you're point is by getting beat by them - but look at how you got to this point. You are racing a 1969 Camaro. A 41 year old car that has had 41 years of horsepower added to it. It's been beaten up. I didn't do it, you probably didn't even do it - but your cars have taken a significant beating with time. Unfortunately the odds of power being taken off are slim to none. The factory race cars are brand new with factory support. They are trying to encourage people to build new race cars and have gotten horsepower factors approved at a certain number (you would know better than I) that may be lower than actually produced. But I guarantee you that in 1969 a 427 properly built in stock was "underrated." If Ford and Chrysler came out with a new Drag Pak and Cobra Jet cars with 500hp factors, nobody in their right mind would build one!

If you remember back to when the 93+Firebirds/Camaros came out, this was the exact same problem. But now, they are on a pretty even plane with the rest of you guys - the system is slow I will give you that. But it does eventually work itself out. I know that everyone on here will claim that they couldn't afford to build one of these new cars - or just may not want to for personal reasons. But if someone is going to build a new Stock DP/CJ it would cost them about the same as building one of the prestine and competitive muscle cars like yours or McClanahan's new ride. I guarantee the price tag differences aren't very far apart.

I hate losing in heads up races, and fortunately we were able to get into a class where as you've said - I don't run into heads up situations very often. But I assure you, we spend hundreds of hours a year making our car faster and building horsepower just in case we do find ourselves in that position. I know firsthand how much this stuff costs, we build all of our own motors and never stop trying new things. It's not easy.

I know it's a slightly different case, but a prime example is Jim Daniels. Ray Barton and those guys have breathed Hemi engines since their inception, but in the last year or two they've SIGNIFICANTLY picked up their program and are running TENTHS faster than they ever have. It can be done. I know it's time and money which we are all struggling to keep up with, but if you are set to run your 60's/70's muscle car - you're pockets have to get deeper. You are competing with teams of engineers at Ford and Mopar whose sole purpose is building efficient engines that crank out huge horsepower.

At the end of the day, there is always going to be a "better combination" and a guy with more money or time to put into it than what most have got. It sucks, but it's all part of the Stock / Super Stock classes and it hasn't changed.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Larry.....Just port the heads like your competition and blast them with "Black Beauty" (acid isnt as good) to hide what you did. Use the rough grit. $35 worth of Black Beauty and 10-15 min. per head is all it takes. It works great on both alum. and cast iron heads and intake manfolds. Thats at least 1/2 of the HP min. your looking for on a 440/383 head. Dont forget to fill the heat riser with an old broken racing piston (Im sure you have a couple of those after the demise of your engine) to as close to the bowel area as you think you dare so the tech inspectors wont get upset. That alone picks up that one port close to 5%. If you dont believe its being done then Ive got a nice bridge I can sell you ! LOL

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Remember that now it is more difficult to get horsepower. 15 hundredths harder to get looked at, and 15 hundredths harder to get automatic. I wonder what the LS1 and LT1s would be now if the indexes and horsepower triggers were changed when they came out.

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

---

Re: A/SA First in the 9.80's
 

Interesting parallel or comparison you attempt to draw there. But in 1967, you could go to the dealership and buy a new 1967 Z-28 Camaro and DRIVE it home. It had a VIN, emissions equipment, safety equipment, and there were 602 built. It was a regular production option, available to the general public, to drive on the street. The 302 was just a throw together piece Vince Piggins came up with to make the Camaro legal in SCCA Trans Am racing, it didn't even have a thing to do with drag racing. The car was not even a purpose built race car, drag race or not.

If we could get our car as fast as the fastest ones like it in the country, cars that have been thrashed for 30 years, it still wouldn't come close to the purpose built race cars. Care to tell us what we should do to it? We can't just go buy a different set of ported heads or a cam with more lift, or another intake, or the latest trick carburetor. So by all means tell us what we should do to our cars when we get back to the shop tomorrow.

For decades, the rules for Stock Eliminator were specifically written so that purpose built race cars were not legal. All sorts of cars were excluded, because they were not factory built production cars sold in quantity to the general public. For an easy and well known example, you can't race a 67 L-88 Corvette in Stock, because there were only 36 built and sold to the general public (word is there were others sold through back door channels to racers). But you can now race a car that was NEVER sold to the general public, never passed emissions, never had safety equipment, never had a VIN, and in fact couldn't even be driven away from the dealer.

The most basic rule for Stock Eliminator has completely changed. It changes the basic character of the class.

The thing is, this thing with the new cars isn't like anything in the past. People keep trying to act like it is, but it isn't. Because cars like this have never been legal for Stock. It doesn't matter how many times people try to say it is just like past history, it doesn't make it so.

And now, yet another person who never has to face one of these cars heads up feels compelled to come in and tell us all how we should all just smile and "take one for the team", and feel privileged to "do it for the good of the class".

And we keep hearing how good this is supposed to be for the sport. But I can't see how it's a good business model. I have yet to see a business just decide to mistreat its current customers in order to draw new customers, and be successful. It doesn't make sense. If you look at business, it generally costs about 2-3 times as much to gain a new customer as it does to keep an old customer. So I just can't see how telling a big percentage of long time customers to take a screwing and like it in order to draw a small number of new customers is a solid long term business model.

Another thing about those "new customers". If the only way to get those "new customers" is to give them some sort of ridiculous advantage over the current customers, how long will the "new customers" stay when someone else is given the same thing, and the "new customers" advantage is gone?

I don't have anything against the people who bought the new cars, it isn't their fault. NHRA opened up the rulebook and changed it, they didn't. They just took advantage of an opportunity they were given by NHRA.

NHRA has created a whole new precedent here. I wonder how happy people will be when NHRA decides to make another wholesale change that has a less than enjoyable effect on them. I wonder if it will still be so wonderful if a year or two from now NHRA decides to make these expensive new cars obsolete by letting in another ringer or two.