Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Chuck,

no problem... plan to keep you all posted, for what it's worth... and I realize some of the crowd isn't interested in what happens 'cause they're not concerned about important people (or something like that...)

I spoke to the Court today, and they hadn't rec'd the ticket... although when I referenced the regulation the officer put on the citation, she said "$240".... ouch, but perhaps not as bad as some states I've heard. Will be confirmed when she actually has the tickie in hand...

Best part is that the Court clerk claims I can fight it thru an informal hearing with a magistrate and the officer (no thanks), or a formal hearing with a Judge -- which is preceded by a negotiating call from the Prosecutor -- at no extra charge (i.e., court costs). I'll likely take option #2 just to press the point of having them explain to me what the law supposedly is -- and where it is spelled out in the reference document.... Rock gave me the number today for the DoT folks... will also call them.

Easy route is to just pay the fine, but maybe I can make some progress and/or set a precedent that might be helpful to others passing thru our fine state.


srm

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Thank you for your time! Hang in there!

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

This is just a money maker for these broke states.......Damm shame..

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Mackie Family Racing - you have a PM

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

I'm not trying to be a smart ***** BUT it seem like there are a bunch of racers out there that should have checked State & Fed laws before having built thier rigs. Sorta like building have built a race car that dosen't match the rule book!

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

I kinda agree with Blue oval ----you hafta check the laws for BIG RIGS like this----each state has its own set of regs --no matter how crazy they may seem to a non resident you just can't go and run say a 80 foot long toter/trailer down the hiway when the reg says 60-65 feet long is the max and hope you don't get a ticket, but when u do u can't say "I did not realize that" for an excuse- Ya wanna run a BIG RIG then you'll hafta get a CDL and play by their rules/regs--I really am surprised that a lot more people don't get stopped/tickets !!!! Looking at the length of some of these rigs they make an 18 wheeler look like a pick up truck/trailer combo!!! as they always say " Ignorance of the law is no excuse." check into the regs BEFORE u buy that humongeous 42 foot motorhome and 32 foot tag only to find out that you are 10 feet too long for a whole lotta states and even 12-15 for most. my 2 cents. Comp

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Considering the one portion of the regulation which states 65ft on interstate and only 55ft allowed on secondary roads then almost every motorhome/trailer combo is over. My 34ft Class A with 24 enclosed is 64.5ft overall with the hitch and tongue contributing to the length.

Basically there isn't a class A / trailer combo out there that should be "legal"

Based on the advertised dimensions of a Chevy crew cab dually they are 21.5ft long, add my 24ft enclosed trailer (which does have the longer than standard tongue option) plus a protrusion of the trailer hitch and you are about 52ft long.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

That length might be good in Mich. but some nearby states are only allowing a total length of in the MID 50's to 60 feet COMBINED OVERALL LENGTH of motorhome tow vehicle & trailer--so if you have a 24 ft box trailer with a 4 ft drawbar total length of 28 feet and the regs say 59 feet overall, your tow vehicle/motorhome can only be 31 feet long---you need a SHORTER tow vehicle/motorhome OR a shorter trailer-- a 40-45 ft motorhome pulling a 32 ft stacker trailer is OBVIOUSLY over length by a bunch--I do not comprehend how racers cannot understand the regs. as written---C'mon fellas this is no surprise the rules for each state are published for everyone to see no surprises here---What it comes down to is if you want to use a 40 foot long tow vehicle and a 30-50 fot long trailer or something that weighs an awful lot , your gonna hafta get the proper drivers license(maybe a CDL) and registration/tags/plates for that vehicle to be legal---anything else your just kidding yourself--get legal or suffer the consequences it's that simple--Comp

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

My Dakota 17'-6" Trailer 18'=4' tongue=35'-10".Gets 9-10 MPG average.Trailer serves
as home away from home,with most conveniences.Very frequently gets priority parking.Good enough for this old fart.Oh,and it's fun occasionally beating up on guys with rigs and cars worth more than I would dream of spending,even if I had it.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Couple of post there that are kinda like BS. Before I bought my first rig I took pictures and specs to my state DOT office. No Problem. No CDL (I have had one for many years anyway) Rec. vehicle tags as they didn't want to congest weigh stations and it was registered by the state as such being that its fits their description and the federal one. Plenty of physical records as I have an FAA physical once yearly anyway. Don't need them. Gave me a copy of the state and federal codes on OTR trucks. I have had several of these trucks over the years and never had a problem until last year. Since then I have had citations, tried to make me pay 1k for another driver (that they conveiniently had on hand) to drive to the next state line. That didn't work since I asked for proof of insurance covering him and my multi thousand dollar rig and payload. Then it was ok for me to drive. I have been to court 5 times either had ticket thrown out or won and successfully sued to recoup my out of pocket. Last time I threatened a harassment and unlawful detention suit against the officer/officers, county and state. That went over really well when my "out of state" lawyer (that dosen't eat at the same trough as the rest of the pigs) made that statement. The officer refused to testify knowing that there was a possibility that his ***** might be nailed to the wall over a 25k a year job.

What this boils down to is that it is not about saftey it is about money and using a pot metal badge and a rental uniform to extort money out of people that either won't fight it or are scared to fight it. Most of the officers I delt with didn't even have the proper certification to inspect a truck and they were working for various DOT's. You find that out in "disclosure" when it goes to court. Training and certifying these guys costs state money so it sometimes gets tossed I guess. Most I delt with didn't act like they even had a working knowledge of what the law actually said and couldn't find what they ticketed me for in their own state or federal guide lines when pressed. We, as racers need to fight this in every legal way possible as well as the sanctioning bodies need to fight this but apparantly they won't until it hits their pocketbook. I am all for abiding by the law but I also ask that law enforcement and states abide by it also. If we, as law abiding citizens continute to "lay down" instead of testing issues that affect us pretty soon nothing else matters.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Here is the problem There are 2 different set of Regs State & Fed. Look at it this way the same as Fed & State Income taxes 2 different sets of rule only thing different is that Stae Officals enforce the Fed Regs when it come to the DOT laws. If you are ever audited by the DOT in Michigan it is done by the Michigian Stae police (my company was and we passed with no problems but it was done by MSP officer.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

I hope they get things straightened out...but don't count on it any time soon.
The States and the DOT departments are operating on "fumes". Most of the Officiers are probably barely hanging on to their jobs due to budget cuts. Any revenue they bring in is probably a "get a Gold Star for that" type of entry in their personnel file.

The best thing to do is really simple:
Go to the State website for the DOT, know the rules and print them out. Florida has done it right. Register for an overlength Permit online. I think it cost me $10.00. You give then the description, VIN, personal info and you are set for a year. Think how many they sell to prevent tickets and it doesn;t take any time out of their DOT officier's regular duties.
Get a copy of the FMCSA regulations (most good truck stops will have booklet).
Make sure you rig is visually safe, ie: safety chains are attached and crossed under receiver, all lights worm, do not speed, do not tailgate and operate your rig like a professional.
Be ready for emergencies, safety triangles to display behind rig if brokedown, spare fuses, Road Assistance Program.

Personally, I went to the work to get a CDL four years ago mainly so I would be familiar with what the DOT guys might ask and expect.
I keep a regular Trucker's LogBook, record my Pre-Trip inspections and keep maintenance records with my LogBook.

We can't make new laws but we can be familiar with the current ones and prepare ourselves in advance of being stopped.

Then fight any ticket you get with as much effort as you can. WHen they lose enough battles, they will look for "easier prey".

Travel safe,

Jok Nicholson
Trailer Toad LLC

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Rock et al,

For those that might have interest, let me provide an update on the long-winded saga that started with an overlength citation from a fine officer of the Michigan State Police Commercial Vehicle Enforcement unit (on the way to the Stanton divisional). I had my day in court in Petticoat Junction yesterday (aka, Ithaca, MI), so here's what I know based upon my experience, and also a lot of digging that Rock Haas has been doing... apologize upfront for a long post:

- several weeks back, from two completely different sources, Rock and I confirmed that the strictest reading of the applicable length statute for MI highways would indicate that motorhomes are technically not allowed to tow ANYTHING... notably, there is a catch-all clause at the end of the statute that says (quite clearly, unforunately) that any combination (e.g., motorhome and trailer) that is not specifically dealt with in the statute is prohibited. So for several folks that proudly posted that they are using a 18' motorhome to pull a 16' trailer... you are just as illegal (technically) as us gluttons that have 80' plus units.

The MI State Police went on to say in one of the responses we rec'd that because it is largely impractical to pull over every single motorhome that goes by pulling a trailer of any kind (plus the danger of potentially making the driver unhook and leave their fishing boat at the side of the road), the officer will defer to the commercial code, and (very) arbitrarily choose to apply the length limited specified for (straight) trucks and trailers -- which is 65 feet. It is important to note that the same clause in the statute provides for an unlimited length for semi-tractor and trailer combinations (i.e., 18-wheelers), as long as the trailer is 53 feet or less.

In practice, since most of us are probably heading to races at night, or returning on Sundays when DOT presence is somewhat limited, there's probably not that much chance of getting pulled over. In addition, the majority of the DOT focus is clearly on big trucks, hauling lots of weight, constantly in use, etc. -- so like me, one could drive for years and never be pulled over (unless you give them a reason, like speeding). And for the benefit of those that do have shorter race rigs -- you're right, they're less obvious, and much less likely to get pulled over than an 85 foot rig.

- to my specific case -- as I previously posted, I was given the option of paying a $240 fine, visiting with a magistrate and the officer (not, waste of time), or requesting a formal hearing with an opportunity for a pre-hearing negotiation with the Prosecutor. I chose option #3, and had two conversations with the ***'t Prosecutor. Without boring you with the gory details, it was obvious she was entirely unfamiliar with the statute... when she called me back several days later, she tried to argue that there was an obvious reference to recreational vehicle length in one of the clauses, and on that basis, had agreed with her boss, the Prosecutor, that there was no need to negotiate with me. When I pointed out to her that she had mis-read the statute -- and that the clause in question was actually referring to commercial vehicles transporting recreational vehicles (e.g., from the factory to the dealer), she sheepishly said, "Oh. You're right. Well hopefully the Judge will see it your way"

- in court yesterday, I thought God was looking out for me, as the officer failed to show at 9am. Unfortunately, as this was in Petticoat Junction, the court didn't have much else to do that was pressing (unlike busy courts which probably would have instantly said "have a nice day, case dismissed"), I was asked to wait for an hour for the dude to show up.

- the actual hearing was almost comical. The Prosecutor made her case briefly, which was largely factual (i.e., the rig was 82 feet). I was given ample opportunity to present my views, which were largely that I had a clean record, had driven for years in a rig of this type with no problems, and there were hundreds of others with similar rigs that were at Michigan's 80 racetracks each weekend... I then pressed on the lack of any specific restriction on motorhomes and trailers in the statute, and the fact that if the officer chose to arbitrarily apply the CV restrictions, it made no sense to me why he picked the limit for truck and trailer versus semi-tractor and trailer... my argument being that a truck is something you put cargo/load into, which is pulling a trailer, versus a semi-tractor with a sleeper -- that is just a shorter version of what we drive.

- good news -- Judge agreed with virtually all of my points. Bad news -- he obviously had his mind made up that he was going to ding me for the fine regardless, which in the end, he did. He argued that the intent of the statute was to ensure public safety, and thus he said the limits should apply to motorhome/trailer combos -- even if it doesn't say so -- and for whatever reason (probably he wanted the money), he stuck at 65 feet. His ***-cover comment at the end was that it was a no point citation that wouldn't even be abstracted to the Secretary of State (DMV in MI terms), and if I thought he had mis-interpreted the statute, I could file an appeal within 21 days.

Apologize for the lengthy post -- but I assume only those of you with any interest would read it anyway. It's clear the only way we're going to solve this -- for everyone, not just those of us with big rigs -- is to get an exemption/permitting process incorporated into the law. Rock has been working this angle with his State Representative, and I have spoken to several contacts that I have (including Roger Penske) to have them put a little heat on the folks in Lansing to get something passed quickly.

So good luck everyone. Don't know what to tell folks that are dealing with the officer that is lurking at the Port Huron - Sarnia bridge... for everyone else, I can only suggest to avoid giving the boys a reason to pull you over, travel at night/Sunday's, tow your stacker behind your Chevette... whatever works for you.

Scott

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Scott, thank you for posting, unfortunately when the political will isn't part of the solution, all your common sense will be ignored unless your willing to shore up some politician campaign, than you can expect he'll be as happy as a teenager in a hookers convention to help. The more people who stand up to this, a better society we leave for the next generation.CR

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

This was ALL about the money with all the revenue the state isn't getting anymore with all the people out of work and businesses leaving. I knew you wouldn't get out of some kind of fine. They could dismiss all of it but they were getting some of your money. I suspect its like this in alot of states these days but I still say Michigan sucks bad, and even though I don't know we'll be any better in 6 months I can't wait for this govenor to be gone!!

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

It seems to me that this is an area that the different racing assoc. need to get involved. Whether it be IHRA,NHRA,NASCAR or what ever ALL racers utilizing these types of vehicles need to have these orginazations go to bat for them and get some wording in the statutes regarding motorhomes and trailers being towed by motorhomes. A CDL should not be needed in the average case maybe when you start getting into the 70-85 foot range different rules apply but not for some schmuck in a 30 Ft Winnebago towing a 24 Ft trailer. Comp 387

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Track Operators need to step up, they are the ones that will be hurt in the long run. It took a track owner in NC (Earwood) to start things rolling, NASCAR followed suit along with other tracks. Racers on there own will not be heard, track owners making less income due to a poor turn out have a louder voice due to less income = less taxes to the state. The states need a permit, they will make more that way then time spent writing tickets. None race motorhomes pull a car behind so it also has its effects on tourism. I live near I-20 in TX and 90% of the motorhomes are pulling a car or trailer.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

So get ready from what I have heard from the Indiana State police ther will be a full court press on vehicles coming to US Nationals as I have been told their limt for Motor Home & Trailer is 60 foot.
Ralph

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Blue Oval Ralph,,,,,, I stopped at a weigh station in Indiana, I-94 just past the Mich line ,with my motorhome and trailer, (73.5 ft ) , where i asked them about the length law and was told that they have more important things to do than mess with every Motorhome pulling a trailer ! End of story, and I left, was told to have a safe trip.......John

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

What an officer at a weigh station says and what the state police on the road will do can be very different.

Due to the economy and tax revenue loss of all states, you can bet the state troopers will be out in full force for Indy so, beware.

We have a city in Metro Detroit that has been accused by the U. S Department of Justice for writing tickets as a means of producing revenue.
In 2009 they wrote approx. 43,000 tickets and the year prior wrote 29,000.
How can you deny you aren't writing tickets for revenue, but the city officials certainly did.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Thanks Scott for the info. Glad we dont go to Mich.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

That's one weight station and one officer, What will happen when they are ordered to do so by the higher up's. It's anybody's guess.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Well if this is going to be the case for Indy.......they will be able to write up about 80 % of ALL the racers.

The state law is 60' for Indiana.

I'm 64' 5'' . With a 27' m/h and a 32' trl. I'm busted.

If there is a mass ticket party by enforcement prior to the event, I would hope that all the racers that got poped would get together at ORP. As to how to handle it ...? Maybe everyone refusing to pay ?

And another thought ! I 'd bet almost all the m/h's and trl's were manifactured in Indiana too !

It's not the Hoosier state..........It would be the Hoser state ! lol lol

Rick Bailey...........64' 5"

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

How about 8 mile between Harper & I-94. For those that don't think there are ticket quotas drive through that stretch at the end of the month. That area is noted in one of those known speed trap books.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Real-Time Update to my Update:

Gents -- just had a call from Ricky Adkins on his way to the IHRA national event in Martin, MI. Said he heard from Kenny Underwood -- and Kenny had been pulled over in TJ Coughlin's rig just outside of Jackson, MI. The female DOT officer nailed him for no CDL, overlength -- and a third violation which Ricky couldn't remember. Worst all of, she made them pull the rig to an impound lot, and unhook... trailer is still sitting there, apparently.

Sounds like it's going to get worse before it gets better

srm

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Thanks for the update! I kind of figured that was the way it would go. Minds already made up. Thats the way law usually works right or wrong. The only way I have found to prevail is to play hard ball with lead balls. IE: When the pig didn't show it was intentional. Hopefully you had more pressing business and they were hoping you would leave and just pay the fine. That didn't work so the court apparantly resorted to its "our way or nothing" stance. If you talk to your friend that had his trailer impounded suggest that he contact the pig or better still have his OUT OF STATE lawyer request that proof is provided that his trailer and contents are covered in full while they are in the city,county,state's possession. Also make sure that they understand the contents are invaluable in that you can set the amount of what your racing operation is worth to you if you have insurance on your racecar/tools/spares.

This really sucks to try to enjoy yourself participating in a hobby that you love only to be hassled even more just because of the possiblility of collecting easy money.

The more I think of this the more upset I become. With all the recap treads lying in the hi-ways, the crack houses, clild molsesters, the illegals, the texting, the overall lack of performance in our economy. All the laws that are broken and ignored in plain sight. Then to pick on racers with a random application of laws of which nobody can accurately interpret. If the states, fed, etc. wants us to have cdls, fuel tax stamps, medical, log books etc.,etc. then put it out there where any literate individual can read it and understand it. I'm sure everyone of us will obey the law to the fullest extent. All this clandesine BS needs to stop. Or we need to stop it ourselves by all legal means at our disposal.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

SS ENGINE GUY while I may agree with the general nature of your post. I find your reference to police officers offensive.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

As I said sometime back you wouldn't build a race car with out reading the rule book!! Going by a weight statation or geting pulled over is just like going to the TEAR DOWN BARN!!
Ralph

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

My dad just saw it sitting at the wrecker place. Its the big JEGS trailer that they pull with the motorhome. They seem to be picking on the vehicles that have advertizing on the side. The fed cdl exempt doesnt work on vehicles registered in company name, or that have corperate sponsorship on them. The length of a motorhome and trailer in Mi. is still not on the books yet. I contacted my Senetor this morning, and havent heard back yet. When I do, I will let you know.
cw

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

This is easy money for the state. Catching child molesters, car thieves,ect ect, is hard work and doesn't pay as well. We have sent all the manufacturing jobs to China thanks to the lobbyist so they neeed to make up the lost revenue.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

I think that most of us would follow the rules if we just knew what they were.
The trouble is that the people enforcing them really don't know them either. They are trying to lump everyone into commercial vehicle status. The way I look at it, if I am going to the races with my truck and trailer, it is no different than a family hauling their travel trailer to go camping. I saw a toy hauler type travel trailer the other day that had triple axles and a 13,200 gvw. If its treated as an RV, why would a box trailer with a racecarbe looked at any differently.

as most have said on here though, it is easy money for the states. It doesn't appear that anyone can have much luck in fighting it.

what about these triple trailer combinations? What state DOT approved them?
We don't have them in the mountains of WV where I live, but I saw plenty on the OH turnpike last weekend.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

what about these triple trailer combinations? What state DOT approved them?
We don't have them in the mountains of WV where I live, but I saw plenty on the OH turnpike last weekend.

Just be aware that The Turnpikes have again different rules than the Federal Interstates an state highways.. That's why you see 36 foot tripples on turnpike and the dropoff lots at exit's.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Longhorn Motors, Ltd has a list for all states that includes combined trailer/towing vehicle length, height, width and other info. If I knew how to post their website I would.
I keep a copy of this in my truck along with a certified copy of truck and trailer weight just in case (don't know if this will help but makes me feel better).

By the way Michigan is 60' ........ Special provisions apply to fifth wheelers (don't know what that means)

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Seems to me that these "length" rules are all helter skelter!!!! One state says 85 feet ,the state right next door is 60 feet, next state over says 65 is OK then you drive back into your own state and your back to 70 feet. No rhyme or reason here. Now most everyone will drive on an Interstate going to a race nobody uses the local highways (also known as the back roads) unless you live locally ---less than 10 miles from the track so those vehicles(Interstate) are subject to an entirely different set of rules compared to the local state rules.
I fully understand states rights but many of these rules were written more than 30-40 years ago (1960-1970) BEFORE a lot of the Interstates were constructed when Motorhomes were not even thought of and trucks/semitrailers were really starting to move large volumes of freight. I understand that the States are hurting financially but this is like fishing in a rain barrel you have a captive audience and what may be legal in Ohio is not legal in Indiana but is legal in Illinois. They know it and they plan on taking full advantage of it!!! But in all fairness to the motoring public these rules need to be updated. This is "entrapment" at its finest.
Also regarding the post a little earlier about pigs--- most of the people I have met in law enforcement have a "Napolean complex", a real attitude problem, a power thing dominating thing if you can call it that over people. Don't even get me started on the whole police thing my blood pressure goes up about 40 points right away but back to reality this motorhome thing is totall overblown if it's not the drag racers its the stock car racers or the horse show people whatever... It's just not fair-- Comp 387

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

I told the MDOT when we had our meeting, that they should go start writing tickets at the casino because they are playing for money, therfore are commercial, and need CDLs to drive their cars home.
They didnt really have a canned answer for that one.

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

How about the guys towing their boats to a fishing tournaments with vans covered with sponsor decals ?? They don't fish for "CHUMP CHANGE" !
There is BIG $$$$ in those bass fishing tournaments !!!
Or the guys "hauling" thei bowling balls to BIG $$$$ tournaments ???

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Offensive? =(

How about calling them what they really are...Tax people with guns! Or just plain worthless...

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

Yeah right.And when the ***** hits the fan who gets the first call?Then when they get there a$$holes complain that they got there too late.
Some communities have drive along programs.All you bitchers and moaners should seek one out and see what they have to deal with on a day to day basis.
As far as ticket enforcement,yeah some are regular a$$holes,but the majority are following the quota procedure laid out to them.No tickee,no jobee.
If it wasn't for police officers you would really have chaos.Right Bobby B?

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

I've made that same comment myself!

Re: Michigan RV's + Trailer Length Warning
 

It is not the law enforcement officers fault he or she has to enforce a poorly written law. Your complaint is with the people that took the State of MI Bill and passed it into law. Next time you come into to town, go over and do some shopping off the Davison Fwy and see if your car is their when you come back or if you manage to escape with your life after you get robbed at gunpoint. Call 911 and ask for the "just plain worthless Tax people with guns" and see if they can come out and help you. I find the comments offensive and disturbing.