Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Thanks for posting that photo, we are the ones who put those flowers there after the race was over. There were wild daisy's everywhere around our pit area at the top end there and I got my scissors out and clipped a bunch to put in the sand(gravel) trap and the 6 of us had our moment of silence. We did not know him personally but he was part of our drag racing family no matter what class we all run in.
Our condolences to his family and many friends.
R.I.P. Mark

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Now I could be completely wrong on this but I would think that alot of the problem stems from the practice of "driving into the chutes". I've always been told to wait until you feel the chutes pull on the car before applying the brakes. At speed you cover alot of ground in a short time by the tiome you realize the chutes are not out, or attached it is nearly impossible to stop on brakes alone,IMO. My brother years ago put our B/A in the sand @ Grand Bend for just such a reason, by the time he realized the chute hadn't come out he was way long and unable to stop. Had he been on the brakes at the stripe I'm sure he could have stopped, was just common practice to wait for the chute tug. Your opnion may vary. Joe

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

This was truly a sad sad day for the Niver family and all of us also. However I don't believe NHRA is at fault here. Let's remember how our tech inspection goes. All classes not just the pros. Has anyone ever had to remove interior panels, raise your car up on jack stands, or had to disassemble something on your car so a tech inspector could look at it for safety? We have all had some of these thing happen but could you imagine the uproar from the racers if you had to do this before every race or if you had to through tech again after you pulled your trans and converter changed a fuel pump or carb. Does NHRA need to check that you know how to put your car back together. Everyone would be screaming at NHRA for looking over their shoulder too much. The mounting bracket broke on Nivers car. Period. Do you take your car apart after every race and check all the welds. I know I don't. We should check more but we all assume that if it was OK at the last race it is OK now. We all know people that only take their cars out of the trailers when they are at the track, how safe is that? Do we need NHRA to verify that our cars have been inspected prior to tech? Are we now going to have to have SFI parachute mounting brackets. I can the hear the protesting now. I wonder how many people have actually pulled their chute and then know how to repack it. I used to pull my chute at least once at every event I went to. I have even stopped that. I will start doing it again. We can go on and on and on about this..... This was a tragic accident and I'm sure there will be some trickle-down changes that we will see from this. All of our safety equipment can be traced back to someone's bad day at the track. Let's just all resolve to check our equipment more and get back to racing instead of engineering things we don't have a clue about.
Sorry for the long post.
Dan Foley

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

How hard would it be to have a secondary safety cable that would go thru the chute attachment points in case the main mount fails? It would add a couple of pounds but I think it would be very well worth it. sort of like the wheel retention on Indy cars.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

There will always be equipment failure emergencies and/or health-related emergencies while in the process of making a pass down the 1/4 mile....we surely will never be able to prevent that. Whan we CAN do, is INSIST that the governing body and the track owner/operators provide us with the SAFEST POSSIBLE emergency high speed scrubbing/car and driver containment area at the very end of these race tracks.... In my opinion, this is not being provided at some of the National Event hosting tracks, as well as many other sanctioned tracks across the country. With all the heartache and tears that have recently been shed, isn't it finally time for the governing body to address this killer problem? WJ

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

I agree. Why these cars, at these speeds, don't use proper 4 wheel brakes is beyond me.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Now there's an idea that merits looking at! Maybe someone will design one for their car and show it off to the rest of the racing world.

BTW, if your car is required a parachute, when was the last time you actually looked at the mounting point on your own car? I'm talking about a close inspection looking for cracks in welds or metal. There is a lot of strain put on that important section each time the parachute is used.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

It seems to me based on the recent events this year NHRA management seems more clueless then ever before.
Must more lives be lost before they get it. How does an official like Graham Light make a statement like he did to the Pro Stock guys and get away with it?
Does NASCAR blatantly compromise the safety of their racers or spectators?
NHRA apparently does not care about anything but lining their pockets.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

An act of sportmanship most people didnt know about.

http://www.competitionplus.com/index...ke-a-full-pass

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Very difficult. Read my earlier post.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

They are clueless because they do not have people with the right technical knowledge and they depend on the so called "Experts" at SFI. In the past I have have confronted SFI on many issues just to have them hang their phone on my ear.

Again, the dynamics of a NASCAR or Formula 1 car are not the same as a Funny Car or Dragster. It requires a sound technical approach in the same fashion when Ford got all their engineers involved during the re-design of the cockpit of Funny cars after John Force's crash. The Ford engineers learned the dynamics were completely different when compared to other types of motor sports.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

After reading every one of your post, I fail to see how you addressed this man's Idea. I also have come to the conclusion that either you lack reading comprehension skills, or you twist what people say on this board just so you can look down your nose at them. You did it to me on a different thread, now here. How about you go read your earlier post, then read this man's 5 more times. Thanks

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Gary,

I do not believe I lack the reading comprehension skills and I do not twist what people say in this board. I read all the proposals and suggestions from racers that like myself, believe in the safety of our sports. What I am implying is that some of the suggestions and proposals stated, are not feasible. Drag racing is not the only motor sport and I have been involved and as a full time career, I make a living making sure the airplanes that people fly on, are safe.

In the past, I have gone head-to-head with the tech department at Glendora and SFI on many issues, including safety, just to go on deaf ears like they seem to do to everyone that raises a concern.

I am sorry if you might believe I have a witch hunt against you; I just try to help and bring reality of some of the subjects discussed. As a matter of fact, Mark Niver's death hits home; I had known Norm for many years when I used to live in Arizona.

He was part of a group of engineers in the Phoenix area that were always brainstorming such as Patrick Hale and Norm Drazy who invented the PSI Supercharger. Pat, Norm, Mark and myself used to spend time on the phone brainstorming and sharing ideas.

As a matter of fact, many years ago, Pat and myself came up with an electro-mechanical idea and design to prevent to rash of dragster blow-overs. NHRA turned down the idea because it probably came from a group of Sportsman racer and not from the big name fuel guys.

In a nutshell, if you believe I have offended you, my apologies.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Nobody wants to hear it but an extra 320' of shut down wouldn't hurt anybody. Make it across the board, all classes. That's a lot more stopping area if something breaks and less terminal speed at the finish line.
JMHO

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

SSDiv6,why don't you use your real name on here?Oh,I know,national security.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Ed, I see the humor, however, if I use my real name, I could not post here from my office in a timely basis and would be restricted only when I get home. Most of the times is late in the evening and when I get home, I do not feel turning on the computer after putting 10+ hours of work at the office.

Yes, the computer is monitored when I am at work and I do work in programs related to the US Government and military so that will give you an idea of my clearance.

Many in this board know my name and when I get PM's, I do identify myself when I respond from home. They even monitor when you access your personal email accounts such as Yahoo and Hotmail which I do from my smart phone and not from work. Also, all access to blogs are blocked at work.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

X2 I knew of a track that it used to be a military airport that was turned in to a drag strip and the shutdown had an additional 1.5 miles of length.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Hey NovaSSDude,
Looks like SSDiv6 was compleatlly wrong about your idea. Here is a line from a statement released from NHRA.
"As an additional safety enhancement, NHRA is also working with manufacturers on a secondary tethering device for parachutes in the Top Fuel, Funny Car, Top Alcohol Dragster and Top Alcohol Funny Car classes. This is in addition to an enhanced specification for parachute mounting for the same four classes that was introduced earlier this year"

All this nonsense about SSDiv6 not posting his name because he uses a Govt. computer is crap. You must work for the current administration to think we are that stupid. They allready know whos computer its coming from if they cared. So why don't you post your name? I believe its because your smart enough to know how stupid you are. I don't believe you have a witch hunt against me, I just don't like people who don't post who they are, and then twist what someone posted to fit in what they think makes them look intelligent. Who cares if you look like your sooo informed about a subject? Nobody knows who to give the credit to. So I can only assume its a self serving agenda.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

NHRA Media Release


http://www.dragzine.com/news/mark-ni...est-nationals/

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

That net was incredibly stiff. Probably far too stiff for a primary catch net. You can't slow a car down that fast and not do severe damage to the car and probably the driver, even if parts of the car don't get to him or her. You certainly cannot use nets that stiff to stop cars built for drag racing.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Whatever!!! By the way, I do not work for the government or the current administration and I never said that anyone was stupid. I work at a private corporation and due to my job I prefer to not have my name in internet sites and social networks...and just in case in do not work for the CIA either!!! ..and do not need to elaborate more about what I do for a living. If you feel I am stupid, that is your prerogative but those who know me in this board, know otherwise and the few times they have shared my name in a post accidentally and they have kindly edited the post to remove my full name because the nature of my job.

There are many that send me PM's asking for help and others ask when I am in the track; I always do it without expecting anything in return. I am not looking for any credit either. I just share tribal knowledge from actual experience from both the aerospace and motor sports with the aim of helping others.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

I agree Alan, you can see it on the video:

http://www.kirotv.com/video/24223718/index.html

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Engineer's put Man on the Moon back in 69. Today's engineer's should easily figure out a way to safley stop a runaway car going 300 mph plus.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

I will stick with my original post about the brakes on the nitro and alcohol cars...does anyone have a photo of a nitro/alcohol dragster or funny car brakes and lets compare it to a formula 1 car brakes...let the photo's do the the talking...it's time to stop using outdated brake design...Luke SS 311

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

I was not there, nor am I a party to the investigation. I do know that an Investigation will be done by NHRA. If they find an issue where a certified component has failed, they will issue a rule for an upgrade across the board. We will not be told of what they found, but you will soon see it in tech. NHRA is not perfect, but I belive that there are "some" very dedicated folks within. No one can predict all types of mishaps. The key is to learn from them as to not repeat. I don't believe the two alcohol incidents are related by cause. I know the cars went into the net, but for different reasons. You can't stop a car from 200 MPH in 100 feet....in 200 feet...your eye balls will be in the sand. The sand and net are there to stop an almost stopped car. That is more favorable than a tree,pond,mound of dirt etc. The story I've heard is that the chutes deployed and came off of the car. If that is true, they will find out why. I do think something must be done, but I don't think we should blame it on the sand/net. I think they need to do something to slow the car down prior to the sand/net, so the sand/net can do what it was designed to do.

The crew chief needs to have an engine kill, chute deployment electronic device in his hand for a run away race car. They do it in monster trucks....hell, if you are to aggressive on the go-cart track they'll cut your power to idle with electronics. It can, and should be done!

Condolences to the family in each case
Wade Mahaffey

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Have you ever tried to stop a dragster really quickly from 150MPH or more without a parachute? You have more than enough brakes to stop the tire already on just about any modern dragster. The problem is when you try to stop the car quickly, the back tires will quickly begin to bounce, the more brake you apply, the more, harder, and higher it bounces. I've seen a dragster with 13x31 tires get 3 feet off the ground trying to stop quickly at 140MPH.

You could put another 4 piston caliper on each rear wheel with a 12" rotor. It would not matter, you cannot use that much brake. The back tires will go 3 feet in the air.

The front tires on dragsters and funny cars are designed to steer the car, not designed to exert or withstand a great deal of braking force. They have neither the contact area nor the strength necessary to generate any real stopping force. The front suspension and the frames are not designed to withstand that sort of force either.

You simply cannot just hang some great big brakes on a car without first designing the car and the tires to use the brakes. Drag cars and the tires used on them simply are not designed for big brakes and the forces they generate.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

So,you is one of those dern fangled govt. workers,cooping on company time,indirectly on the taxpayers nickle.Bit,that's only between me and you.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

I'll bet if someone developed an anti lock system,to keep the brakes from locking,they would stop these cars safely.
Quote: I don't believe the two alcohol incidents are related by cause.
Wade,this incident and Alexis DeJoria's were the same.The Kalitta and the other were simular in that both cars didn't decelerate because the engines were still under power.That's two avenues for Ca. to get outside help to correct.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Ed, the back tires do not have to lock up to make the car bounce. It just makes them bounce worse.

The biggest problem, other than the bounce, is the fact that there's nothing on the front of the car to support heavy braking action. When you're hard on the brakes, weight transfers forward. There's not enough wheel, tire, spindle, or axle to support both the weight transfer and the forces generated by the braking action. At best you'll just slide the tires, at worst you'll tear something up, and maybe make a bad situation worse. You aren't going to stop an 1800 pound car going 250MPH with an Anglia spindle.

Putting front brakes on a 300" dragster with a flexible slip joint frame and 2" wide tires is probably not going to be a good idea, either.

An ABS system is going to be extremely difficult and cost prohibitive to develop and install. Sure, the F1 cars have ABS. But those teams have hundreds of millions of dollars to spend. You're talking about teams that have a dyno that not only replicates the engine speeds of a lap, but also the forces exerted on the drivetrain through the chassis during that lap. NASCAR doesn't have ABS, for various reasons, and they have OEM backing.

An ABS system is going to require at least 3-6 sensors, reluctor wheels, wiring, a computer, a power supply for the computer, a brake distribution block, servo motors, a power supply for those servo motors, all the extra plumbing, and programming. Then NHRA is going to have to police it to keep it from being used as a traction control device. And the drivers won't like it because they won't have the control they like to keep the tires from spinning.

Ideas and suggestions are great. Don't get me wrong. But the wrong idea could make an already bad situation worse.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Ed, did you read my previous post? Being selective on your posts to create more bashing? I do not work for the government.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Formula 1 Brakes:

http://autoracingworld.files.wordpre...12/brakes1.jpg

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/...brake-str3.jpg

Dragster Rear Brakes:

http://images.chassisshop.com/CACHE8...140-0265_1.jpg

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Okay then, we can't put bigger brakes on them, we can't put a cable catch on them, we can't put 4 parachutes on them, we can't use ABS but if I remember correctly a big time pro was using ABS as a traction control device a couple of years ago, we can't slow them down, so, I repeat, cut the distance and give them 320' more stopping distance. If they make it across the board everybody will be the same.
JMHO

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Actually, Floyd, they can substantially improve the track shutdown area, and solve a lot of problems for everyone.

NHRA is simply looking for a way to pass the cost on to the racers, because they don't want to spend their money (it really belongs to the members) and they can't get the tracks to spend their money because NHRA is already cutting their throats.

So they tell the racers to go buy new brakes. That's right, they told the alcohol racers to go buy carbon fiber rotors if they don't have them. They already changed the parachute mount spec, and they're looking at adding more to it. Don't get me wrong, those are improvements to the cars, for safety. They're also going to mandate a cut off switch for alcohol just as the fuel cars have now.

But NHRA is not spending any money on it. That's why they like it. That's why they like the 1000' solution, too.

The "pit" and the net can be improved. But Graham Light says "we've used that stuff for years, and it's always worked". Well, the racers have used their brakes for years, and they've always worked, too. And even NHRA says the alcohol cars have not gotten much faster in 5 years.

NHRA could, with their resources, set out an open bid for a contract to fix the tracks. They could easily finance it. Why don't they? NASCAR spent millions of dollars on testing, and then went about implementing what they learned. NHRA could accept bids from contractors on a new net system, and a new shutdown area. I'd bet Jim Head would be one of the first in line, he probably has a few things in mind already. NHRA could also help the tracks get financing, and offer them contracts to guarantee they'd have enough races to pay off the loan.

But they're not doing it. They continue to put cars on poorly prepared tracks, with safety systems that have not been improved in decades. They make the racers buy new belts, new jackets, new pants, new helmets, and have their cars certified and re-certified. They spend the racers' money, they spend the track owners' money, but they're not spending theirs.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Alan, it's because they are putting the money in their own pocket.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Rhetorical question, Greg. :D

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Alan, I agree with all of that but the cars are getting faster and faster all the time. I remember when I ran stock back in the early 60's I had a fast stocker in the low 12's, high 11's. Top fuel was barely 200. Now you have comp cars over 200 and stockers in the 9's. It's all relative, I know.
Some tracks don't have the real estate to expand their shutdown area. I like 1320 racing. But terminal velocity has gotten to the point it's almost out of control.
The contest is an accelaration contest, the one that accelerates the fastest to a given point is the winner. Does it matter what that given point is?
JMHO

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

I just watched the video for the first time and am stunned at how tight the net was....He should have walked away. Such a tragedy. To rapid of a deceleration will always result in heartbreak.

Perhaps something that the stunt drivers use would work.

A soft net followed by row upon row upon row of free used up slicks, with perhaps another net and if all else fails a water barrier. Car will be trashed, but who cares, a soft landing is better than no landing at all.

You could also try and engineer cockpit deceleration in addition. Remote activated airbags, or sensor based like in street cars. There must be a Physics and mechanical engineering guru out there!

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

Floyd, yes, it does matter. For a number of reasons. Especially the point about who is tasked with bearing the burden. Shorten the distance to 1000'? Now we all have to go change our gearing, among other things. That's just NHRA placing the burden on us, again, to prevent them from having to actually address the problem.

Stock and Super Stock aren't really likely to gain much from 320' more shut down. The shutdown area is a concern for us only when we have no brakes at all, situations like Woodro and Gainesville, or Pete at Orlando. It won't make much difference. We don't gain that much speed in that 320'.

But to keep NHRA from spending money and addressing the problem, we'd be tasked with spending our money, and changing our cars.

Where does it stop? When do we stop spending money so they don't have to and they can make more? All of our costs have gone up, the purse has remained the same, and the contingency payout has dropped 50%.

Switching to 1000' will cost us all more, again. And it was supposed to be a temporary fix to begin with. It doesn't seem to be so temporary, does it? They got their temporary fix, but they are not working on a permanent fix. Because it would cost them money.

No, it's time for NHRA to step up and pay their share. They need to address the problem on their end. And they need to make a habit of it.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

No you don't,BUT your company,as you said yourself,has govt. contracts.Who finances
the government?Last time I looked we all are contributors to the kitty.How many of your 841 posts were made from your WORK computer?
You said yourself you post on a computer from your work location.
Sometimes knowledge and the perception of knowledge is better kept to ones self.
Especially on a site like this one,where there are more "experts" and Rhodes Scholars
than at any major think tank in the universe.

Re: Alcohol dragster?
 

You're right, I didn't think of the cost to the other racers to change their program. I was just thinking about the overall picture and the length of the race and the reduction of speed.
I guess there is no cover all answer.