Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Do the mustangs and challengers have racing seats?

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

The Mustangs use stock Mustang seats with a CJ logo. I'm not sure what the Challengers use. I believe the first ones had Viper seats. Neither has a lightweight, dedicated racing seat.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Dave you make a great point about how a Stocker should look and I agree with you, however, should any of us crash, you'd want to be in a properly designed racing seat.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Well if they just allowed a driver side racing seat what would that be 30 pds would that be a big advantage?

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I agree, I would. But where do we draw the line?? Look at Woodros or Peter Biondos crash where they lost their brakes, I feel they both would have benefited from having a parachute more so than an aftermarket seat. Where is the outcry for mandatory parachutes..you know..for safety

I would bet the average age of a stock or super stock driver is a prime target for a heart attack. Maybe we should all be required to have electronic shut offs like the pros...you know..for safety

I see some racers using stock axles. Maybe we should be required to use wheel tethers as well.....

Racing is a dangerous sport. If you don't feel comfortable within the current rules, don't race, or pick another class.

I'd like to know how many crashes have occurred in stock over the last 10 years. I'm not trying to insinuate that someone needs to get hurt before we make a change. I'm just asking.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Dave are you drinking bottled water? If you are let me know and also what kind so I don't.
We have cars going 9.60's running cars that are going13.0's with no bars or racing seat belts. What happens when this "dude" that is trying to relive his youth drives into the back of me or a P/sa car because he lost control of his midlife crisis machine? I think I would get punted into the wall or something in the area.(Not my boat from Lebanon) See I would think because I have such a hands on education that a seat that bends in the middle would not contain myself as a one piece seat that is made of steal, aluminum and or what ever.
Dave don’t you have wheelie bars? Come on talk about a car looking “stock”…

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The fact is, stockers are much faster than they were ten years ago and will continue to go even faster. Its hard to draw a line when we continue to improve performance every year and with super fast cars being produced now.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Dave u must be drinking some chitty azz bottled water what is the problem with a seat that is safer than a factory seat if this is passed and u dont like it keep ur factory seat let the majority change theirs if they want too as far as how many crashes we have had it only takes one to kill somebody WTF!

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Oh Dave then you can have a BIG sign that says........... My car is more stock than all the other with racing seats!!!!

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Keith. Ice tea today. Maybe you missed the sarcasm in my last post.
I think the 13 second cars or P/SA cars that share your concerns should put in a cage and a 5 point harness. If they aren't running one already then they obviously aren't that concerned. I agree an aftermarket seat is safer, I never disputed that.
I do have wheelie bars, yes. If NHRA allowed aftermarket seats, I would have those too. Do I think either of them are necessary, no I don't.
I saw the boat, looking sharp!

You still drunk from your birthday?

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

My problem with it is in my opinion stock eliminator cars should not look like this..
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/t...ust2009240.jpg

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I agree they should not look like that picture. The car needs seat covers and carpets, door panels.

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I find this thread interesting.
After reading the posts I kept thinking about the guys running the F.A.S.T. series.
Now that is a real stock appearing class !
And of course, the seats in those cars are 35 plus years old and those guys are running 10's now !

As for the 13 second guys running against 9 second cars, the NMRA and NMCA Open Comp classes allow a mid 15 second car to compete against an 8 second car. The subject of safety has come up on the NMRA message board about the speed/acceleration rate difference between two racers.

In most likelyhood, a serious accident (hopefully not) will be what it takes for NHRA to listen to the racers concerning seats.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Forget the aftermarket seats in Stock. If you are REALLY concerned about safety, petition for AIR BAGS! My Expedition not only has front air bags, but side air bags.

In reading these post, it seems apparent a few don't know you can eliminate the factory seat track. Seats can be bolted to the floor directly. Mine have CM tubing with tabs that you bolt the seats to and the CM tubing is then welded to the floor. I had that when I raced in Stock. Rulebook states you must have "factory type front and rear seats" and to me that opens the door for non specific model year seats. "Vette seats in a '68 Camaro should be defend-able with any tech issues.

For SS, I found a really bitchin' pair of seats for $200 at a wrecking yard. They came off a Porsche and I think they are from a 911. Even have factory seat belt slots at the neck line. They weigh about 25 #'s each and I would not trade them for aluminum after market seats.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

is this a stocker? if so than WHO"S

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can the seat belts be routed through the middle and sides of the seat?

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Check out the rules Amendment for Stock Class seats.

SECTION 9 –STOCK

Page 9.9
INTERIOR: 6
UPHOLSTERY (April 15, 2010)

Must have full factory-type upholstery

See General Regulations 6:2.

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Uh Dave,clutch man was rowing a 4 speed when you were still in grade school.He's done
very well for himself with a stick car.You might not agree with him but you hit the Bozo button with your comments about him.Just a heads up from a fellow racer.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Uh ED, It's not who you think it is, I don't think . Who you think it is, is a nice guy,and doesn't call people names.
Also, who you think it is, already has an account here in his own name .
Multiple identities aren't allowed ,are they?
Maybe call Kenny on his private line and ask him..LOL

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You must really be missing the point Mr.Lee.. Why would you want a seat that bends? They wont keep you contained.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Man. I never realized this would get so much ink. My point is that aftermarket seats that are stock appearing or close to stock appearing should be an option. Contrary to what Evan said these seats that I've seen appear to be much better than the 30- 40 year old seats we are using. They have welded tubular steel frames, the seat tracks have locks on both sides and do not have the slop in the mechanizims that old seats do. I confess that I bought the procar seats for Andrew's car when I was building it. Since then I put my 70 seats in Andrew's car and found some 71 seats for my car. At the time the rule book said stock type seats. I took that to mean a seat that looked similar to a stock seat and operated like a stock seat. As most of you know after a thread on here discussing this subject appeared the rule book was changed to indicate the correct year and model seats.

On another thread on this forum one of the guys who have built a bunch of the new challengers say that they have aftermarket seats. I guess that's okay since they are aftermarket cars. I think the weight difference is not a big thing. If you build your car the right way you are going to be able to put plenty of ballast in the trunk, plus the seats I'm talking about are only 10 to 15 pounds lighter than a stock seat. Oh one other thing pre 67 cars don't even have a latch to keep the back from going forward. To me this is a common sense issue, you can buy the pro car seats for about 200 bucks a piece, they are covered in black vinyl, can be bought with or without a head rest, and they offer high backs or low backs. To re do a set of 70 Camaro seats you first have to find some and since they are a one year only deal that's getting harder and harder to do. After you pay someone 400 to 500 dollars for some wore out piece of crap, then you have to buy new foam and covers which are about $600. So you've got about $1000 invested already then you have to pay an upholsterer $500 to re-cover them. $1500 compared to around $400. I realize that not all seats would be this costly but this was our deal. The thing is you get a better seat for about a third of the price a very few people would even recognize that they weren't the original seats.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Greg, should we send that to the powers for a look? Can't hurt. I know I had to keep an eye on my seats in my 69 Six Pack, course the 300 lbs in it didn't help. I think we changed the seat tracks and used very large washers on the floor. And there should not be any changing seats in the DP cars. The 09's came with dark gray Viper seats cause they have the slots for the belts & harnesses. The 10's I don't know, but I will find out. I have a couple.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I feel the rules should allow replacement of the seats with OEM seats manufactured on 1999 or later, or an aftermarket seat OEM look-a-like seat that meets the J2287 or J2896 SAE specs. These later seats meet the latest SAE impact and load design requirements, although my preference would be 1999 or later because this is when SAE implemented more stringent specs for auto manufacturers. European manufacturers have more stringent seat specs when compared to US made cars.

The first seat spec, J879, was established in 1968. Prior to 1968, there were no specific specs for seats other than those established by the OEM's.

This is a good article that may enlighten you to this issue:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/CARS/rules/cras.../deflrep1.html

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I'm no more worried that these Porsche seats will fold as I would a Kirkey. I guess if one were worried about that, place a strap across the seat back and weld some attachment points across the cross-bar of the roll bar.

Mickey, the side bolsters are not as prevalent where your hips are. The belts fit across the seat in this location nicely. I don't have a picture and the car is some 75 miles away. Porsche's are nice 150+ MPH cars as are many USA made cars. Looking at SSdiv6 post it appears 1999 and newer would be a good choice.

Don Morris,
Out of habit I constantly pick up the last printed rulebook I have and it's from 2009 (actually the one I quoted was from 2008). I have to get in the habit to throw out the printed material and go to NHRA's web site for the updates. Yes, you are correct, the rule has been amended to year / model claimed. They finally got that clarified.
I can't imagine any tech official not allowing a formed CM tubing that the seat would bolt to and that tubing could be welded or even bolted to the floor. It would be a much safer / secure mount. NHRA states "Driver’s seat tracks may be bolted down" - that's a great rule. However, as far as I know, all factory seat tracks are bolted down from the factory.

Still nobody from the safety brigade has seconded the motion for air bags....

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

"I can't imagine any tech official not allowing a formed CM tubing that the seat would bolt to and that tubing could be welded or even bolted to the floor. It would be a much safer / secure mount. NHRA states "Driver’s seat tracks may be bolted down" - that's a great rule. However, as far as I know, all factory seat tracks are bolted down from the factory."

Jeff, there's no tellin' what that means, the way some of the rules and regs are written.
I think they may be trying to say that you can fix the adjusters so they don't slide.

I wonder how many of the "pro" group that are worried about their seats, have welded the adjusters or drilled them for a grade 8 bolt or two.

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I like to see the Stocker's look Stock, each step takes us further away from "Stock" but we are already on that path.

I bet there is not one of you that has to run a bench seat like I do ('64 Max). if you guys get to change to an after market seat it really doesn't drastically change the look but what about us that race cars that only came with bench seats? Nobody makes an after market bench seat!

To put after market buckets would be safer but would completely change to look of the car, certainly a perplexing problem.

JimR

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

So lets see... When I wreck my car and my mother has to wipe my *** again and feed me.. I can always say my stocker "looked" stock! I can only shake my head at the stupid things people say!!

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Well, for what it is worth, a lot of the cars, maybe the majority, have a roll bar, or roll cage, a safety harness, an aftermarket shifter, a cluster of aftermarket gauges, a shift light, and a huge aftermarket tach. With the exception of the new factory races cars, few, if any of the cars came with those items. Aftermarket wheels, and wheelie bars on the fast cars change their look on the outside. Is a seat, not a TIG welded trick aluminum seat, but something reasonably stock appearing, really that big a problem?

I agree entirely that the creeping incremental additions for more and more performance enhancing parts is a problem, and needs to be stopped. But is it wise to apply that thought process to safety as well?

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I'm with you Alan & Greg...."IF" you want to use them you can dosen't say you would have to....hell my old V/SA Nova had the stock gas tank in it when I sold it back in 2007! you know what's funny in dad's V/SA old 4-door car @ most tracks he dose not even have to wear a helmet...but in "stock" he has to have a helmet & jacket....I would have thought the seat would have come before the jacket....as the car runs 84mph (on a good pass)that being said people will bitch no matter what they do/don't do sooooo on we go!

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

No response on securing the seat back to the roll cage / bar cross bar yet? Is it too simple?
All you would need is a 2" wide nylon webbing with a pair of metal ends on each end. Both with bolt holes in them. Something like the crotch strap found on your 5-point harness. Simpson or somebody could make them for you tomorrow afternoon.
Place tabs on the cross bar, one on each side of the seat set at a distance to allow a tight fit of the webbing against the seat back. Somebody will no doubt have an idea on making the webbing adjustable for tension. Your already supposed to have a method of securing the seat back to the roll bar, this just enforces it.
Confirm or petition with NHRA that you can replace the seat adjuster track with a pair of CM stands which the seat is bolted to and the stands are welded or bolted to the floor with appropriate bracing under the floor as in a roll bar installation. A chassis shop will have less than 2 hours into this.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

I completely understand the point of trying to keep stock "stock" but when safety is concerned I think there is a need to think about the idea. I don't buy the thought of stock seats will ruin the stock appearance look. Like Alan said the cars have cages, wheelie bars, 5" tachs, gauges, etc. A seat will not make any difference in this. As long as the rule states the seat must have an interior matching upholstery or cover then it wouldn't stick out like an exposed aluminum seat. I understand the weight argument but the minimum weight would not change and stockers don't have any weight transfer trouble anyway.

The added saftey of a seat is a good investment in my opinion especially those that do not lock the seat back in place. I think the seat back should be solid and not able to fold. In the current car I'm building I wanted a good seat but with the rules the seat is mounted to a chromoly crossmember attached to the frame and the seat back attached to the cage. Would rather have a good seat with a good headrest because factory headrests are to short. With that said I don't think the rule should be mandatory but optional.

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Keith,

You're right about saying stupid things.

You really think that with all the safety equipment in your car it's only the seat that keeps you from be a veggie....what an ignorant statement!

And why are you planning on wrecking your car? Are your driving skills so lacking?

JimR

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No jacket needed in N/SA and lower.

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Unless you put a 6 point in.Then it's belts and jacket time.

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In IHRA you have to have a jacket in ALL stock classes with a min of sfi 3.2A/1.In this years rule book on page 60.

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Bet you Dale Earnhart sr. did not plan on wrecking his car and had great driving skills but dut to lack of safety in a car he is dead. now lets think about who has a ignorant statement.

Hey Mickey your 100% right one is to many, If we would of loss Woodro (praise God we didn't) would the rule still be the same. for anyone who say's its only a stocker, understand that at twenty five mph can break your neck. If you want do all you can to go home everynight to your faimly open your mind about safety.

Jeremy Waibel
NHRA STK 2231

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

just as a rebuttal to the weight issue and the huge advantage it is; I just weighed our new 92 camaro H-I-J/SA car. Its no lightweight, heavier centerline wheels, stock brakes, nothing cut up or acid dipped, mild steel bar, stock POWER seats, etc. as it sits with me in it its 50 lbs light for H/SA, the lightest class it can run......................and I'm 245lbs. i don't see the whole weight issue. aftermarket seats would have just added to the massive amount of weight the car nees

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There's not much hope for you as a stock racer if you can't see the value of taking 50+ pounds out of a pair of seats and putting it right where it needs to be towards the back.

I can't believe no comments or arrows at my idea of securing a stock seat base and seat back for zero movement! Unless I'm wrong, it is a simple solution. Since it has been ignored, I would have to say the real issue is some want after market seats under the guise of "safety" when in fact they are looking for better weight distribution.

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Jeff you probably won't get any responses because you have addressed the problem in a way that eliminates Kirkeys, etc. I have several customers cars that have had stock seats totally rebuilt using chromemoly frames with small rectangles attached where the belts go thru including lap belts. Re-covered with factory material including better flame-retardent filling. Couldn't tell them from factory unless they were examined very closely. We spend a thousand or fifteen hundred on the latest q-jet, 3-5k on stocker heads, etc. then gripe about prices for a seat that meets stocker criteria and provides additional saftey. Greg Hill's approach of a stocker "like" seat should be an option. Everyone wants saftey as long as it dosen't cost too much.
I see all the reckless money thrown at cars in an attempt to go faster but until last year alot were wearing pajama bottoms over shorts. I and everyone else wants the safest racing enviroment that can be provided yet you put yourselves on some of the worst racing surfaces in the most unsafe conditions time after time and then worry about the cost of a seat that meets the criteria for the class you run. Too many rules have been thrown out in S/SS already. If you want to run SS or Comp then put it on the window.

Re: A case for aftermarket seats in stock
 

Jeff there is plenty of hope for me as a stock racer and yes i do see the benefit, however if I move the car to I or J I'll have plenty of weight in the back and lighter seats would be a moot point. I realize some combinations would benefit more than others from being able to move weight back.................I'm also sure the benefited plenty from putting the weight lost from aftermarket brakes on the tag too. As for your solution, its a band-aid. There is a solution available, why not use the best solution available when there is a 99.9% chance it will never effect the outcome of a heads up race, but if it save one racer from serious injury I don't see how its a bad thing.