Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Not doubting that you heard that, but NHRA relies on the manufacturers to supply engine specs and submit a horsepower rating. I seriously doubt that NHRA "appraised" the hp of these engines. There may have been some negotiations though

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I spoke to NHRA about the process. The OEM's sent their "recommendations" on DP/CJ HP levels. NHRA told them to "think some more". So yes, there was some negotiations albeit as we know now, not enough.
One or more engine combo's were submitted with such an insulting low HP recommendation and / or equipment the proposals went straight to the trash can. Those combination is not on the books. And I won't say what, so don't ask.

I will say this, it's apparent to me NHRA Tech is not happy with the below index runs by the DP/CJ cars at Indy and the issue is under heated discussion. The AHFS has their hands tied for blanket HP corrections the way some would like to see them adjusted and they must follow the AHFS policy (which never forecast runs so far under the index). And like it or not, NHRA has to look at all parties interests before mandating new policy. I firmly believe NHRA is on our side.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

[QUOTE=Jeff Lee; NHRA has to look at all parties interests before mandating new policy. I firmly believe NHRA is on our side.[/QUOTE]

LMFAO ! Good one Jeff.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

It was FORD Jesse had at least 3 more CRATE MOTOR combo's that were turned down.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I have several letters from Graham Light, Gray and Gracia and Linda Louie. They made it perfectly clear that the HP set on the CJ's came from Ford and that they accepted Ford's rating. They told me that no one was getting over on them because they had the ahfs to fix any problems that may pop up. hmmmm.....

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

And if you read my post you'll note that is what I said. Ford & Dodge gave numbers, NHRA accepted them...eventually.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

You people kill me. Numbers are down in our sport so NHRA/Ford/Dodge do something to help save the class and give it some life (Because they do care about us somewhat). And all you A** CLOWNS can't see the big pitcher. It’s all about you and your combo and how NHRA screwed you. Who cares if we lose 5-10 racers per year in S/SS. We can go back to the way it was two years ago and in 5 years your fast Stock and SSer will be nothing more than a $60,000 bracket one car. Because we as a class would not change with the times. Are these cars under factored, yes. But people will not build new cars unless they have some kind of advantage. How much GM stuff is being built right now, zero because there is no advantage. I for one would like to race in Stock and Superstock for the next 30 plus years and this is the only way that is going to happen. Programs like these help to bring in new people and more cars witch help us grow as a class. End of story A** CLOWNS.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I think you have been smoking to much of your own bath water.....heh heh !

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Negotiations? This post does not square with your first post. According to nhra, Ford produced the figures and nhra promptly rolled over.

Also, I don't believe this promo stuff about this being a great deal for Stock and Super Stock. This is just a short term cash n carry deal.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I can't wait for the first 7 second GT/AA Cobra Jet.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I for one like seeing the new cars out there. I have been racing stock as long or longer than most of you. And as anyone that knows my brother and myself we always try to be the fastest in the class. Our class if it's going to survive long term needs a way to get new cars and new people invovled. How can seeing Big Daddy in a car be bad for us. Guys like him will bring more press to our class than anything we could do. If we stick with the deal about how many cars needed to be built in order to run stock than our class will die a slow death. Terry lets face it they just aren't building the cars they did in the 60's threw the 80's. You either go with the times or get left behind. The only problem as we all know is the soft Hp ratings. Even when I looked at the new combo's I never though that I would see one of them able to run 9.79 at 135.63 in C/SA at Indy. If NHRA puts a hp rating that is close to where it should be then I for one think this is a great thing for stock. If they don't then it could also hurt our class badly. Charlie I also agree that the new cars need a slight advantage or no one would invest the kind of money it cost to build one. ( Excluding you of course) I just want us old car useres to be able to bring a knife to a gun fight instead of a rubber band. And Charlie as smart as you are you know there is a big difference between the P T Cruiser and the rest of the cars. If not just give John Shaul or Bryan Phillips a call.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I didn't see a baseball or a beer....................its picture, not pitcher.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Bruce Noland said "Also I don't beleive this promo stuff about this being a great deal for Stock and Super Stock. This is just a short term cash and carry deal." Yea, the cj/drag pak cars probably won't be around for very long just like the 68 1/2 cj's and 68 hemi Darts and Barracudas are now. Gee, its been such a long time since we saw a Hemi Challange with just 68 Darts and Barracudas LOL. Why don't you guys build your own CJ or Drag Pak and show us how fast they really are. If you say you don't have enough money to do that then you probably couldn't run with the same people that have the CJ's and Drag Pak's if they built a car just like yours. Here's an idea: take your old muscle car, turn it back to a street car, sell it , take the wheels and tires and use them on your new CJ or Drag pak.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Guys look what happen 1st round at Indy.
John Shaul runs into Doug Duell heads up in A/SA.
COME ON John who has one of the fastest cars COAST TO COAST.
And one of the hardest workers in stock.
He didnt stand a chance..
Gets A$@@ Clowned like a newbie in prison on the 1st day..
That should show you how BOGUS these cars are!!

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Novel idea, but they didn't build that many and all of them are spoken for. There are a couple that are available at extremely high prices on the Drag Paks and those aren't done.

There are more that are affected by this that would love that choice that have never posted on Class Racer. There are not enough cars available for the ones that have posted in this thread.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

It is a street car vs. factory experimental race car. Nothing that a stroke of the pen and a little shoe polish couldn't fix.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I asked myself how the synergy of this discussion would be if there was a GM offering such as a late model Supercharged Camaro or 'Vette running the same numbers and classes as the CJ's and DP's?

When the LT-1's and LS-1's were introduced years ago, I remember seeing the same type of arguments from other car makes. It would be interesting the day someone shows up at the track with a Supercharged Pontiac GTP FWD and qualifies 2 seconds under the index.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Bruce,
If you would stop cutting / pasting and leaving the original statement behind on the floor, you might understand. Here's what I said in reference to "negotiating"

"The OEM's sent their "recommendations" on DP/CJ HP levels. NHRA told them to "think some more". So yes, there was some negotiations albeit as we know now, not enough. "


A) OEM sent HP to NHRA.
B) NHRA did not accept HP.
C) OEM revised HP.
D) NHRA accepted HP.
E) HP in books.

I think the "big picture" is NHRA will straighten this out and not through the long & arduous method of using the AHFS exclusively. I see no gain for NHRA to specifically alienating and forcing 95% of the S/SS class into quiting.
Did NHRA get suckered in? Maybe. But there is no denying this move brought attention and new blood into the sport. Remember, no press is bad press.
Not everything is a conspiracy...

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

There is a whole lot more to it than who is offering what. The first problem you have with any of these cars is availability. Since they are not mass produced street cars like the LT1s, then not anybody can get one. You make an application and submit it for approval. Or buy one from someone that has already jumped through the hoops. Not to mention these are not cars that meet the intent of the class.

The next problem you run into is affordability. Not only the expense of these cars, but what about the spare parts? Most racers stick with a single manufacturer when they pick a car to race. It begins as a personal preference in a lot of cases, but it also has to do with parts that cross over to other applications or car changes through out a racing career.

Many of us have very limited funds and have gathered parts over the years. One of the reasons why Chevy seems to dominate sportsman drag racing is that so many of their parts fit so many cars. A Chevy guy buying a Cobra Jet or a Drag Pak is not unheard of or even a bad deal. You don't lose respect for doing it, but there is a tremendous amount of expense that extends beyond the initial purchase of a race car.

Sometimes, I think the car is the cheapest part of the equation.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

In the case of the Drag Pack, I can assure you that it is absolutely true all of the time. The car lists (2009 = $37K, 2010=a six pack of beer under $40K) And then you open both doors, the trunk and the hood, and start pouring a ton more money into all of them. If you can build one for a $100K total, then I commend you. We did an awful lot of the work ourselves, and are still way over $100K total.

When the 2011's come out, that will most likely be completely different as they will come ready to race, like the Mustangs.... But hang on, before anyone starts whining about that, most of them will never hit the track as they will probably get mothballed as collector cars until we get the economy back on track and assets like collectible cars have some value again.

David
The New Hemi Guy

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

There is nothing that says you have to build an original Drag Pak or CJ. Doug Duell's car was built before the Drag Pak cars were built and Ford had a Body in White Program in 2010 where you could buy a body and the trim pieces for about 10k. There were no limits to the number of body in whites built or clones that I know of.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

ED The new Super CJ motor would be well over 4000 pounds in GT/AA. I think GT/AA is safe (this week).

Sorry Chad for the spelling mistake.

I agree some of these new HP’s are way out of line and something needs to be done. But that is NHRA problem not Ford and Chrysler. You can’t blame racers for following NHRA rules.

Dgal Rules change with the times. We all don’t run stock cams anymore do we?

Sorry I can’t spend anymore time with you clown's tonight I must get back to work on my new CJ.



Chuck D just following the rules set by NHRA

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Charley,

I realize rules change with the times and we must adapt to the best of our abilities. That doesn't mean that this situation was created by a rule change. It is more like the NHRA is not enforcing their own rules fairly.

I have seen where some are laying the blame somewhat on the people like yourself in taking advantage of the misapplication of the rules or no application in this case. I have not blamed you, Jeff Teuton, or any of the others. I blame the NHRA for being so shortsighted and blind to the implications of their decision. Especially when there were similar situations in the past that took too long to rectify. Read this as the LT1s and the creation of the FI classes.

They have a map as to how to correct it. There is no reason to wait 3 years or even 3 months to fix it. The obvious fix is the Factory Experimental designation for these cars and for the Camaros if GM ever intends to follow the same path.

The only compelling reason not to do it or to defend their current classification is if racers running these cars feel the need for such an unfair advantage to make rounds. What is sportsman about that?

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

You may be right about the availability of the pieces. I wasn't aware that Doug Duell's car was a pieced together car. Either way, his is the only one I am aware of and there doesn't seem to be any others out there. There must be a reason why people aren't following that path.

I know the reason I am not and it has to do with money. I had posted earlier that the price of the car is not the only expense. The corresponding spare parts and other items that go along with that type of change can be about as much.

Not all of us have unlimited budgets and not all of us can afford new parts. Most of my stuff is either used or discarded pieces that I have had to scrape together and resurrect with a lot of sweat equity. Granted, I enjoy that and take a great deal of satisfaction in making something work that someone else gave up on.

Situations like this one is taking a lot of wind out of my sails.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Has anyone thought to put one of the new 5.4 supercharged CJ's in, say an old CJ such as a 69 Mustang? Do the rules allow that type of combo?

How about one of the "new hemi's" in a Savoy?

Just out there....

Steve

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Some news for you. Your new cars haven't been around 40 years yet. You can crow in 2050 not 2010. Some more news for you. No anonymous, non Stock Eliminator racing agitator is going to tell me what to do with my money or cars.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

First of all my first initial is with my last name in case you hadn't figured it out so I did use my real name. Second, I have been involved with a stock eliminator car the last two years even though I used to race in Super Stock. Third You can spend your money any way you wish but you asked for ideas and I furnished one.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Jeff,
I'm using the quotes the same as you are. You have mentioned negotiating many times now and I'm trying my best to point out to you that Graham Light and his staff said they accepted the numbers that Ford gave them. There were no negotiations according to them. Sure some folks had to communicate at some level to get the cars in the sheets but the power figures were produced by Ford. nhra didn't get suckered. They claim in their letters they knew exactly what was going on from the beginning. Most of us don't see a conspiracy - we see collusion.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Ok d. wydendorf, thats good - you have been "involved with" a Stock Eliminator car. Can we guess that you are "involved with" a new Stocker?

Ideas? When did I ask for ideas on this thread?

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

OK,It was on page 5 of the thread "NHRA are you really that blind or just stupid". After a while all these threads start to look the same. My biggest complaint is that the AHFS is not working and that is the problem. If the trigger was set lower (Like maybe .8 instead of 1.0 under) and the review took place more often or at 1 second under you automatically move up a class things would even out faster. I know there will always be someone who eludes the system but the big egos will iron things out quicker. The AHFS needs to react quicker with more gusto.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I guess I spoke to the "other" staff @ NHRA Tech this week and was told the HP numbers went higher after NHRA initially said "no". I don't know about you, but in my world, that's negotiating.
So what is your point?

This "collusion" is it there to make the sport, what, better...worse? Did Grahm Light get together with Ford & Chrysler and determine the best way to get rid of S/SS was to allow these ringers in and everybody would be forced to either buy one or get out of the sport? What was the collusion all about?

IHRA already tried to make it an all Pro event and that didn't work. I don't think that has been lost on Grahm Light or anybody else at NHRA.
As you try to dig up the past on an NHRA vote in the '70's or '80's trying to show collusion or conspiracy you have the rare opportunity to prove the same with the DP/CJ conspiracy or collusion (which I would be hard pressed to define the difference but apparently to you there is so have at it).

I'm desperately waiting for my car to get done. It's been way to long out of commission and things have changed in my life and in NHRA. But that doesn't make me want to run scared or sell off the car. I will build the best possible car and the chips fall where the chips fall. I might loose to a CJ/DP in a heads-up but the odds are, and I predict shall remain, that the likely hood of running into one in eliminations will be next to nill.

In my conversation with NHRA, I predicted the fastest ever correction curve on the AHFS. These DP/CJ cars have more ego behind them than NHRA has seen in decades. I believe the LT-1/LS-1 racers kept each other at bay. Not so with this group. Sure wish I would have saved my prediction for the CJ Stock class cars. It's somewhere on ClassRacer but I believe I called for somewhere around 9.60's @ 138 before they even hit the track. Point is, none of this comes as a surprise to me and I'm still putting money into my car.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

The point is I have letters from the so-called bosses that contradict what you're posting.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Then I'm a liar? Again, so what's your point? Exactly what does it matter if the HP was negotiated or not; all that matters is the HP was assigned to the books and off to the races they went.

You still haven't answered what the point of this conspiracy, er, collusion is. And once you discover the truth upon which you are seeking, then what?

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I guess I'm one of these 'clowns'. So answer me this......

Would you bring a nuclear weapon to a waterfight? After you won, would you feel proud? Because that is about the equivalent of a CJ in stock eliminator.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

A liar no. But most probably misinformed. All the nhra executives involved could be spinning their butts off. Then again it could be a simple case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. The nhra members have been screwed no matter how it happened. Even with your heavy brand loyality you can understand how this debacle has hurt the sport..

Collusion is very simply a private agreement between two or more parties to commit an illegal act. A civil act in this case. Nobody in the real world believes nhra made this deal with the OEM's unless it benefited them. We believe nhra and OEM's intentionally made deals that would benefit their respective corporations to the detriment of the member racers and possibly some of the major contingency sponsors as well. The above information is a very small part of a much larger file and is only peanuts compared to the real problems that nhra has. We'll see how it all turns out in the future. We hope all members will benefit from the results of this work.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Sean I don't like fighting so I would never be involved in a water fight. But I think it’s more like a shotgun vs. bow and arrow.

This is my question to you. How many people race the same car for 25 plus years? Not very many, you know why? Because that are always looking for a better combo to improve their advantage. That is what this class is made of, people looking for a class which they can have an advantage over there competitor. This has not changed for 50 years. These new cars are just a little softer then in past years.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

I'm gonna still build my car and come out.. I have never been scared of a race and never will..

I don't have the money to build an A through 3 Stock anyways.. but I do feel for the guys in these classes. Heads up will suck.

I can't wait until I put on a trailer though in eliminations..that will make my day..

Just cause that have money doesn't mean they can cut a light and run the number..:D

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Well I guess it would be possible the left doesn't know about the right and if your having direct communication with Grahm Light that would trump my conversation with the S/SS Committee Chairman this last week.

So I suppose when you say "we", there is a group and it looks like a big lawsuit is in the making with your group vs. NHRA. Since I assume your group must have a winning attitude and can endure the cost of litigation, what then will be your course of action?

And brand loyalty? LOL! Yes I like the AMX but with only a handful in action, it sure wouldn't make much sense to think there is an advantage in having one! And I see a DP 5.9 falls right into my SS class.

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Well said Jeff

Re: Drag Pak/Cobra Jet FX classes
 

Yes, I am a member of a group of people who are attempting to reverse some of nhra's more egregious actions. Like nhra taking away our membership rights. Sitting on our hands is not an option for us. We don't buy this mighty nhra nonsense.

There are many ways to resolve problems here in the good old US of A. Like seeking assistance from government agencies that have jurisdiciton over these organizations. There is no need to file lawsuits, but we would win if we decided to go that route. nhra does have a pretty bad record when it comes to major lawsuits. The Pro Stock Truck racers scared nhra so badly that it refused to provide any court ordered documentation about itself and opted to make a large payment to the PST racers instead. The spanking by the PST racers proved that nhra has many problems when it comes to litigation. And believe me it was a real down home spanking!

It's nice to know that your brand loyalty is reserved for AMX. Many people thought you had been fooled into believing that nhra was really trying to help the members.