Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

THAT would be a cost effective and smart move. No more Shubeck type lifters, no extream hi RPM's, "Ported" heads and intakes would become mostly obsolete, engines would last longer, building and maintaining a stocker would be less expensive, and less work. They dont HAVE to be stock pressures.....just an across the board maximum pressure would be fair for all combos. Todays stocker runs more spring pressure than my 1977-78 era Super Stocker and it would turn about 8000 RPM. No more square lobe cams.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I agree fully. It would be stupid in SS. I ran them in the past in Modified Eliminator and later my sprint car. They do also need the seats changed for longevity. I think the Honda rod deal was stupid also. Some engine builders just wanting to sell more expensive parts is all I can figure. No other logical reason I can ome up with. Had some out dated Comp parts on the shelf they needed to move? <G>

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I dont know if David is implying that I asked for this, but last year, after indy, I asked them to consider it. After I went to Jesel, and we got it to spin to 10,900 clean, with steel valves that weigh 148 grams, I didnt really care anymore. I think some of the facts in that letter are slightly skewed, I pay 50.00 a piece for custom ferrea valves, I can get Ti valves from CV for 100.00. I think that the spring life would double (50.00 ea) and that would pay the difference of the valves in about 30 runs. I think to say that 20 hemi customers havent broken a valve in 6 years is BS also, cause Daniels broke one at Vegas (Jim told me himself). We have all broke things in our racing careers, if you race, things break, and I am not ashamed to say I have tore up my share of parts. I dont really see why its a big deal. The motors cost 60K plus, whats another 400.00. MY customers by the way, are in favor of it. I hadnt heard a word about it until jeff K. told me at indy it was a done deal. I said whatever. Just let me know what the rules are, and I will figure out how to deal with them.
cw

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

What about the rest of us who don't spend $60K on an engine, and don't need or want to?

I'd be okay with them making special rules for SS/AH, if that's what you guys want.

At least some of the rest of us have no desire to add $1K to the cost of an engine, and cut the life of the engine by 50% to turn them 10K RPM.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I agree. Let the Hemi guys have them. Leave the rest of us alone.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

People, please write NHRA more letters so they don't continue to ruin the little bit of Super Stock that is left. Its not about how much it cost, its about the sport, the challenge, the strict rules. Once you take that away what's left?

If they allow this they should just jump right into eliminating cylinder head volumes too. Tunnel rams, inline carburetor placement, smaller rod journals, clutchless transmissions, all completely uncalled for changes that were made. What was wrong with the previous rules?

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

A few months back, David Reher (Reher-Morrison) wrote an article on how the use of titanium valves saved his customers money over the use of stainless valves. He claimed a longer life of all the valve train components (springs, lifters,etc.) and allowed a longer life between freshen ups. Not all combinations benefit from a higher RPM limit, but all could benefit from longer life of the parts. I would like to see them allowed, although I probably would not use them. Dan Zrust

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

You don't have to turn more RPM, which reduces the life cycle of the rest of the components, and requires other expensive changes to the car. You can always go to a more aggressive cam profile, if possible.

If nothing else changed, yes, a reduction in valve weight could result in an increase in the life of some components.

But do you really think that nothing else will change?

If one guy uses the reduced valve weight to make a performance gain, then the rest, at least those who try to remain competitive, are forced to follow suit. Automatically negating any gains in reliability or reduced cost.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

CW I have no issues with you on a personal level. Most of us don't have 60K engines that border on pro stock stuff. These added changes that keep coming up are going to run regular guys like myself outta here. It's a case of the have's once again gaining on the have nots. This is just my opinion whatever that's worth. LOL

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Seems very logical and easy to police,remove V/C and chech spring pressures.Class racing is getting so far from it's roots it's almost a new class Slightly Pro Stock

Kevin

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I really dont see why anyone other than a hemi in SS would want to run them. You dont need a Ti valve to turn a typical SS engine past the point of their cyl. heads capabilities.
We have the stuff to make power @ 9500, Last time I built a 327, it peaked @ 7800. I dont really see what the big deal is, you dont have to use them if you dont want to.
I got an email from NHRA tech a while back asking me how much I spent on cranks, cause they were wondering if they should turn loose billets. I asked about that last year also, because I wanted to make some changes to the cranks that the current forgings wouldnt handle. I figured out how to work with what I had, and didnt persue it anymore. The facts are a billet crank is only a couple hundred more than a comparable forging, like the valve deal. I dont hear anyone crying about the billets, maybe thats a benefit to the ones that are starting a letter writing campaign against the valves. Like I said I dont care either way, just tell me what the rules are so I can plan my next move.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

NO!!!!!!!!!!!
Stock Eliminator, Super Stock Eliminator,Modified and Competition Eliminator,Alcohol Funny Car and Alcohol Dragster were the Sportsman Classesbefore the addition of the Super classes.You start in the class that fits you and your bank account.You try to do the best you can with help from your friends to run under the index of the class you fit into.
Stock and Super Stock limit you to what can be done to the car and all its parts."That keeps the cost down so you can keep racing."If they keep allowing more expensive changes in heads,intake manifolds,etc.it is going to limit participation and eventually eliminate the or a class.
I do not know what the answer is but we need to stick together to prevent loss of sportsman racing and keep it somewhat affordable.
Sinecerely,
Ronnie Brigham
B/S 1171

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

So let me get this straight. Ti valves are not legal for Stock replacements?:D I was talking with a stock eliminator racer the week before Indy about some thinks on his car. A few other guys walked up and started talking with him and they were asking what all you are allowed to do to your engine in stock. You will never guess what came out of his mouth. He said that he was allowed to use Ti valves. I quickly said "Do What?" and he's like yeah you are allowed any aftermarket valve. I was like really? Saweeet! I'll get right on that.:rolleyes:

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Even though I would be against Ti valves, one thing to consider is the cost of custom valves. I can buy SS valves off the shelf for my 390 AMC and they are competitively priced against all the other makes. But my engine builder takes valves for other makes and then does a lot of work to them on the back side. Flow improvements are significant. So I can't imagine my guy is the only one doing this. I would guess there are some big name builders and probably more of those "best kept secret" builders who do the same. I don't know what the final cost is (I just know how much the big ticket is :eek: :eek: ) but I'm sure they're not cheap.
Of course if they were Ti, the modifications may be just as high, if not higher due to the extra machining process.

On billet cranks...my guess is they will allow them. Why do I say this? Because I just spent stupid money on my factory forged unit. And every time I do this, a new rule comes out that would have been cheaper and easier! :(

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

If we keep going like this why don't we just say run whatever you want and NHRA can just check cubic inches. I'll say it again Comp here we come. I predict after this gets thru aluminum heads are next.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

The argument will be..."since we have to change all the seats to match these valves and these heads are so old...blah, blah, blah"

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

If I were to build say a BBC, I would call Comp Cams. I believe they would tell me I need a 55mm camshaft in this engine because it would flex less than the standard camshaft because of the spring pressure I will be using. Then I would send the block to a machine shop to have the lifter bores machined to accept a Chrysler lifter because the std GM diameter lifters don't seem to have the life of the larger bores. A set of .165 pushrods are recommended for strength also. I would call T&D or Jesel for a rockershaft system because the old Crane rockers and a stud girdle just won't last. . Now I have all these special parts and machine work to prevent flex in my valvetrain but am not allow to use a slightly lighter valve of the same dimensions in those highly modified heads. That makes sense.

I have a friend who runs a 69 Chevelle with a 500ci motor and a stick. 3300lbs. He has run a Jerico transmission, and for many years run a paddle clutch with 2500lb pp. He has never broke a transmission in almost 15 years. How? He replaces the transmission EVERY year.
If Barton never broke a valve it may be because he replaces them at every rebuild-which is what 25 runs in those cars?

I'm the guy who refuses to put a clutchless transmission in his car because I feel it's takes away from what a SS car should be. But I'll put titanium valves in my engine in a heartbeat. Any guys that feel different, put a 8000 chip in your 2-step and push the gas petal to the floor and hold it there. Thats what a stick car does on the starting line.

I vote YES.
________________________________

Andy Stone 1102 A/S 1112 SS/C

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

alum heads are legal for some combo's.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

8000 rpm????????

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Since BBC are not my realm, I consulted with somebody that really knows these things. Regarding a Super Stock BBC, he told me the aluminum BBC heads (401?) could outflow the capabilities of the 2.19 valves; i.e., the valve is the restriction, not the ports. So adding a Ti valve, while not being larger, would certainly add 500 or so RPM. And that is where the benefit is. The "cork" can now cycle many more times down the track. He thought the 396/375 would really like this option.
We also discussed my 2.02" intake 390. His opinion was the valve was probably light enough and the heads don't flow enough; in other words the flow numbers of the head are more closely correlated than in comparison to the BBC.
So that gives some insight as to who or what can benefit the most from such a change

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Make up your mind, Charlie.:mad: One minute you're saying, "I don't care, just tell me what the rules are", and the next you're asking NHRA to change rules to solve your problems.

How about I plan the next move for you, Its really simple. Stick to the rule book. Its guys like you that are killing the originality of the class.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

killing the originality of the class.[/QUOTE]

David, before you were born these 1968 factory cars were made and ran in the 10s, the originality of the class. Now it's prostock without a sponsor, low 8s 160mph (expensive) and the fans love it. My engine builder says absolutley to Ti valves in AH for engine life and less blowups at high speed. I would love to get the steering out of the pan (R&P) and a diaper of some type. All about saftey. I am preparing a letter in favor of these changes as I have a "dog in this hunt". My 20,000,000 cents
Ha! Stephen

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Spyphish, Since when was your car running high speed? :) Just kidding.

I agree, this is turning into Pro Stock. And look how ridiculous their rules got. You guys just don't get it. If we keep following this path we'll end up running tube chassis carbon fiber bodied SS/AH cars.....because its safer. What makes you think we can't put on a diaper now? Have you personally tried?

I'm 100% all for safety rules, but people get stupid about it. For example, the inner fender tubs for front tire clearance. If your tires hit, then raise the ride height or run a smaller tire. If your engine can't rev to 10,000 RPM without breaking then don't rev it to 10,000 RPM.

That's why it is SUPER STOCK!!!

Stop taking the STOCK out of Super Stock. Go race Comp if you don't like it. You'll even get a nicer pit spot.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Kinda like guys asking NHRA to make center counterweights legal. I didnt do that one. Or guys protesting me for 48 degree lifters when they were the ones that started it. I dont complain about other people, I just figure out how to make them wish I hadnt showed up. Any reputable person that builds engines will tell you that Ti valves will be cheaper in the long run. Unless they are trying to protect the "club Hornick" payed high rpm engine that they pass around.
I am killing the class, Thats a good one. I am giving people an option to run against the pennsylvania millionares club. I dont have a club, I sell the same stuff to everyone, and last year we beat your best stuff with Rains backup engine.
Sorry for your sad face, my day is going pretty well so far. Maybe the sun will shine on you.
cw

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

You must feel awfully guilty about this whole deal because nobody ever commented about you saying anything. You jumped right in.

I never asked NHRA to add center counterweights. Would it help? Absolutely, but I wouldn't want it if it meant it would protect the rules of the class.

Did we have 48 degree lifters in the past? Yes. But we were told it wasn't legal so we stopped. Did you stop, no, you just complained to NHRA.

2 years ago at the Maple Grove National 2 weeks before Indy we asked NHRA once again, "Are you allowed to change the lifter angles?", and they replied, "Absolutley not". We asked, "Would you check it at Indy in 2 weeks", and NHRA replied "Yes, if we had the right tools". We didn't protest you, we attempted to and NHRA wouldn't let us. First they said they didn't have the tools. When we told them we had the tools they said, "Well, we're not going to check it anyway". And guess what, the following Tuesday there was a rule change to accommodate Charlie Westcott, once again.

I never said that changing to Ti valves wouldn't be cheaper in the long run. How many times do I have to say the same thing, keep the rules the way they are, you are killing the originality of the class. I'm not talking about the cost of the parts or the time before your motor breaks. I'm talking about keeping Super Stock the way it is. Can't you understand this at all? Are you that dense?

I don't think sacrificing 2 engines to beat me is anything to brag about. You and your Dad are lucky my carbs decided to bog in the final. Congrats on your win. What happened this year? Oh yeah, 2 more bit the dust. What rule change are you planning for now?

Why didn't you borrow Rains' motor this year? Because he doesn't have the same power you have or because he was slow?

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

It looks to me that NHRA doesn't have the technical skills to police their rules anymore. The racers got more sophicated that the sanctioning body. I guess that is why they opened up porting and chamber mods because the cheaters (not picking out anyone here) were smarter than the tech guys. Back to the porch for me.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

OUCH! This is getting good even though most of us in the know knew what was going on already with the Hemis. . These SS/AH cars are out of hand and NOTHING like they should be. I think the AH part stands for something else.....LOL.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

There is no question this statement. NHRA need's a house cleaning and they need VERY GOOD tech people FULL TIME and the same ones at every race.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I understand the idea of of Ti valves but it is not allowed in SS. The last time everyone looked -SS/AH was part of SS eliminater. So for the want of the few , everyone will be (forced ), well not forced, but in this competitive sport ,will run them for fear of giving up an edge to the competition.
I have never met Charlie Westcott but I do like his attitude. You can,t beat-------just tell me the rules so I know what to work with.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Oh , one more thing------As far as the NHRA tech dept. allowing Stock and S/Stock to morph into what we have today . Whatever they allow or disallow they should be geared to check it at teardown. I don't believe I have to cite examples. They created this monster-----now corral it.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

D4 has a very good one in Wesley Roberson. He know's exactly what he's looking at!!!!

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Go to the track and watch Jimmy Bridges make a run then report back to me.



______________________________________

Andy Stone 1102 A/S 1112 SS/C

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

Stephen I know that you get my point. Ed

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

No doubt about Wesley, but Danny and Bruce won't or don't listen to him. As I have heard he won't go to a meet that Danny is at. NOTE I said as I have heard.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I haven't asked Jimmy, have you asked him how he feels about titanium valves?

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

I can afford them and they would extend my valve spring life, but this stuff has to stop some place.

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

It truly is a shame that this is what it has come down to. Everybody seems to know where the problems are but when does it all get rectified. To all the men in tech who take pride in their work---Thank you !

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

But he no longer works National Events !

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

No I haven't. I met Jimmy some years ago at the Dutch through a friend who bought a set of heads from him. I believe he was trying to set the record at that time in the Corvette. I was on the starting line when he made a couple of passes and I thought that was an awful lot of RPMs for a big block.

Don't get me wrong-its obvious the steel valves will work. Even at the high RPMS. It;s my opinion that if titanium valves were legal, maybe the valve train would last longer.

Funny, I never heard anyone complain about titanium axles in a rear....


_______________________________

Andy Stone 1102 A/S 1112 SS/C

Re: Titanium Valves Allowed in S/S?
 

And the guys who can not drive a 4 speed some how pushed the clutchless trans rule thru in Super Stock . Now it has cost the lower S/S racers to spend more $$$$ just to keep up. Theres nothing super about it anymore and it sure "AIN'T" STOCK. Yeah Comp. is a good place for these guys and Comp. needs the cars anyway. With this SS/AH heads up club and the BS crap with all of the engine mods that are being done you have ruined it for anyone wanting to just run S/S with one of the neatest MoPar cars to ever be built.