Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

just bring in a rear wheel dyno to the track.

Grand Am does this also checking the DP, GT and show room stockers also.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Great idea. However, it is so easy to fool a dyno...not even funny! Even if you impound the car. All you need is to know there is a possibility of a dyno at the end of a run, and think outside the box.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

F1/enter = minus ???hp of choice, lol

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Speed up the old cars, lower the hp 2%, 3.25% or pick a number, give them some new parts (pure stock left long ago). Now the guy that runs .1 under the index car go .3 under. He ain't interested in goin to the top anyway. The vast (right wing conspiracy) number don't ever intend to go to the top. And this will give the Internet Racers, and the NoCAR racers something else to talk about. Another quote that comes to mind is from the famous (infamous) Chuck Rayburn 'If you aint within .3 of the fast guy, you don't vote'. Now that's ASDF JKLsemicolon if you never had formal keyboard training.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

i do believe charleybob would have a different point of view if he was not racing a new CJ... and if it was up to his daddy he'd be driving the tractor on the farm !!

a new set of heads up FX classes would be an easy fix, attract more attention to the manufacturers and stock eliminator... BUT the manufacturers might not agree and thier $$$$ is what this is all about.

NHRA will not intervene unless the $$$$ money agrees.

we have no vote, no input, so in sense charleybob is right shut and race or dont race that are your options.

jack

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Maybe not jack.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

That would be a great idea if NHRA paid the the same money as NASCAR.I guess a racer could go to the local motel while his car is being impounded and on the dyno and wait by the phone for the results.LOL

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

After reading that article I couldn't help but notice all the "B's" in the committee....plus one retired "B"....lol


"The Stock and Super Stock committee is made up of Bob Lang, Bob Blackwell, Bruce Bachelder, Dave Mohn and Cvengros. Bill Holt was on the Stock and Super Stock committee, but he is no longer on the committee because he just recently retired. "

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

And the system goes right along with 12 more for the 5.7. Should be 360 next week.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

We need to remember that NHRA's horsepower comittee needs to be given some respect in the sense that basically...... they were told a HUGE LIE by both Ford and Chrysler about these new cars. It is well known the amount of money that foth Ford and Mopar are putting into NHRA events and etc. So when NHRA asked these manufacturers to give them an HONEST set of power figures ( IN GOOD FAITH), they expected to be told the truth. I can't blame either Ford or Mopar for trying to "one up" the other, but it has come at the expense of too many racers. Ford and Mopar should be ashamed to even think that for a second NHRA and it's sportsman racers are so naive and ignorant as to not know the power potential right away. We are talking about 40+ years of R&D, technology and yes... EFI. The main difference between the "old" LT and LS cars is that they were actually built to be street cars with VIN's and license plates. Now it is up to NHRA to take the necessary action to level the playing field for everyone else while still allowing Ford and Mopar to slug it out in the HP wars. I don't advocate taking HP off of the older combos because many racers have spent countless hours finding the optimum place for the ballast. This could severely hurt the higher horsepower cars on the marginal tracks we routinely race on. I think that a separate class is the best answer at this point. The re-establishment of the EFI classes would be a great step. I was a dealership mechanic for over 10 years, so I know how awesome the EFI tuning parameters are.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

2 issues with this line of thought; 1) any idiot could have done a 10 minute internet search ( or read a brochure) and known that the FR500CJ engine was basically a GT500 motor, and would make much more than 425 hp, the same could be said for the Hemi's after looking at the specs. It just goes to show that no due dilligence was done by NHRA, and that's unacceptable. 2) one of the big differences (which NHRA never took into acount) in the HP factors of the previous EFI cars was the switch from gross to net SAE HP ratings just after the muscle car era in the early 70's. Since the late 80's-early 90's was the begining of the factories' starting to really build muscle cars again, it wasn't until then that this decades old change reared its ugly head. So many combos of the mid-late 70's and early 80's were smog choked dogs that when the factories started to control emissions through EFI and put compression and performance back into them it looked as if they were intentionally under rated.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Chad,
You are right in the sense that it is glaringly obvious in the sales literature; however, if Ford gave NHRA a different boost figure then that may account for the "WTF were they thinking" factor ( We know that 500 Hp sells street cars to the public and 425 Hp get a great weight break). There weren't a whole lot of smog devices back in the late 60's to speak of and the 80's had no performance cars that used a computer controlled carburetor with a M/C solenoid. The GM cars had numerous driveability issues, none of which were too much power. With the advent of electric A.I.R. pumps and EFI the parasitic load on the engines is not there in regards to smog control. An "stocker" engine that makes 200 HP over advertised is a killer piece, but at a rating od 425, the CJ makes almost 300.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

and that's at the wheels

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Do you really think that the OEM's submitted "HONEST" HP numbers in the "Good Old Days"?

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Have you guys that are complaining about Ford and Chrysler deflating the horsepower factors been living in a cave the last 45 years? Please spare us the self righteousness. Do you think that in 1966, it was just a fluke that a 426 hemi, 427 chevy and a 427 FE Ford were all rated at exactly 425 horsepower? How about the 1969 255 Hp 350 and the 1968- 70 428 Cobra Jet that are famous for being underfactored? How about the 67-69 290 HP 302 z-28 and the 69-70 boss 302 that was also rated at 290 HP. This stuff has been going on ever since I got involved with Stock and Super Stock 40 tears ago! How about just complaining about that fact that the horsepower factors aren't right and get off your high horse about Ford and Chrysler sending in conservative numbers. I will bet that if you pulled up a Dyno Sheet from all of the engines , you might be able to find a place where they actually produced the horsepower claimed but it wasn't the actual peak horsepower. Get over it!

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

The story I've read on the 1964 Race Hemi was that the dyno at Chrysler was rated for 400HP and they ran it to 425HP and cut it off there before it hit the power peak.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

that dyno is on display at the Chrysler museum.....I bet it was really accurate....it looks like something from the wizard of Oz....lol

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Forget about the HP in the 60s the cars ran eachother in SS or FX not Stock Elim.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Didn't Ben Wenzel win stock at the 67 Nationals with a 290 hp z-28 and Bobby Warren win the World Championship with a 255 hp 350 in a 69 Nova about 1970? I remember several 427 Galaxies and 427 Impalas running in stock back in the days. Even an occasional 427 Powered Station Wagon were all running in STOCK!

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Just pointing out that the OEM's are doing the same thing that they have always done. You can't blame the racers for running them. It is the NHRA that needs to decide what to do with them.

There lies the $14,000,000.00 question!

(And that is before one wrench is turned!)

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Yea but you MISSED the point, the factory cars of the early 60s that were being mentioned at 425 hp was bogus but they did not run Stock, the weight breaks did not change till 64 and the lite weight cars still could NOT run Stock.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

They weren't 200-300 HP off though and that is the big difference. Let's face it, that would be like comparing a bogus DZ-302 Hp rating to a bogus '23 T-bucket HP rating. It is a 40 year technolgy difference. I'm all for the HP wars, but not at the expense of the older cars. A separate class is the answer and let them turn 'em loose on each other.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

You do realize that ALL of the HP ratings are bogus, right? I can't think of one combination in the books that is actually rated at the HP that it is making.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

The difference in the old days was that you could actually dominate the whole race, instead of just winning class and an occasional heads up race. Eliminations were based off your National record at the time and you could run as much as .010 under without breaking out. At that time ( back in the late 1960's to early 1970's) you could win a few thousand dollars as opposed to a few hundred for a class win today for having a very fast car. Now you just get a class win and bragging rights instead of winning the whole eliminator.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Gump,
You are right in the sense that most combinations have been flogged very diligently by their owners, so pretty much every engine makes more than it's factor. However, everyone knows that a "Super Snake" makes 725 Hp with a smaller blower pulley and different tune. Other than those 2 items, the engine is the same as any other Shelby. I think you have misunderstood the meaning of the use of "bogus" when referring to the HP numbers. The late 60's & early 70's musclecars were SLIGHTLY underrated from the factory (say 35-50 HP) but the real intent was to get insurance companies to write a policy on these cars their owners could afford. I think the new cars are great for the sport but they need a little tweaking so as not to run out the older cars. I can't afford 80 G's for a new DP or CJ and I sure as hell don't want to drive 10-20 hours roundtrip and spend a few thousand only to be blasted in the first round by 6 car lengths over the course of a season. There are some people who always fall into the same bracket on the ladder. I would believe that you must own one of these new beasts and if you don't, please let me know your thoughts after a few "heads up" encounters. I doubt you'll be thrilled by losing by 5 cars to a guy who had an .850 light.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

That is true, but you have to admit that it also gave them an advantage in class. But that really isn't what I was talking about. Do you really believe that any "good" Stocker is making the HP that is posted in the classification guide? The HP numbers are nothing but a factor. It is wrong to suggest that the new cars should be adjusted by their true HP without addressing the true HP of every combination.


I agree with this if it is done in a fair manner.


I have a Challenger sitting in my shop along with a Camaro. I am waiting to see what the NHRA does with these classes before I commit to building anything.

Currently, I run an LT1 Formula. We ran Top Stock at quite a few IHRA Division 9 events over the last few years (NHRA style). The racing was very close. I would love to see at least one FX class where these new cars can run heads-up.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

I kinda figured you to have one of those cars. I really don't think your LT1 could run with your new Challenger no matter how fast it is. I know there are a few differences in the Top Stock rules, but I still figure that if you prepare your DP like your LT1, it's not even close.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Let's compare the 5.9L DP & the much maligned LT1 which share the same 275 hp factory rating.
The DP has:
Ten more cubic inches.
One full point compression, 11.57 vs 10.5.
2.02" vs 1.94" intake valves.
1.6" vs 1.5" ex valves.
Much bigger, much higher flowing ports, before porting.
1000 cfm vs 750 cfm throttle body.
Let me make those changes to my LT1 and you won't see me running any tens. You would have to be terrifically stupid to think there is anything right about this deal. You can't blame the guys for having them, but they should not be disappointed when the guys they beat in heads-up races aren't impressed with their performance, or respect their car building ability. It's a so-what deal.
What if guys runs them heads-up a couple hundred lbs light? If you go across the scales 200 light you shouldn't get a hp hit, right? As long as they do get hit, right?

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

I'm not exactly sure where you are going with this. Anyone that feels an LT1 car can run heads-up with any of the new cars is going to have hurt feelings. Originally I thought the idea of GM, Ford, and Mopar fighting it out in AA was a great idea. But, now that there are so many combinations being published I feel that the NHRA should make a new class.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

A good stock eliminator motor will make about 1 and 1/2 times it's rated hp. If your motor only makes it's rated hp it probably won't run the index.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

My point exactly. The HP numbers in the guide are a factor. They haven't been real HP numbers in a long time.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

How about engines that don't make what they are factored hp?
A factory LT1 won't make anywhere near the Stock Eliminator hp factor.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Here is something to think about, after doing the stats for this past weekend's events, the new Top Guns have 1 PT Cruzer, 8 Challengers, 1 2010 Mustang
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh boy.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Suprise suprise! LOL

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Why should they reflect current power levels? If you keep adding power to every engine combo, pretty soon the top class cars will be made illegal since the weight/power ratio will bump them out of SS/AA and AA/SA, etc. Pretty soon the Hemis, 427 Camaros, Shelby Mustangs, etc. would be bumped out if the HP factor was put in line with current power levels. A SS/AH Hemi is now over 1000HP in a 3000 pound car. I'm sure most of the big block engines would be in the same situation. Would you want a 350 Camaro racing in SS/AA with the big block combos not legal anymore? This would be an extreme case, but shows the potential for class creep.

I always thought that NHRA and IHRA should keep one engine combo at a constant power level and all the rest moved up and down to even the playing field. My choice would have been the Race Hemi's at 500 HP, but the SS/AH cars are now at 507. I think the 500 HP number reflected the power level of a 1964 Race Hemi when it left the factory in 1964. Food for thought and strictly my opinion (which I'm sure doesn't count for anything). Thanks for listening to an old goober.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

I don't think that they should, but there is a lot of talk on here about how the new cars should be factored that way. My point is that all entries should be treated equally.

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Has anyone noticed what car was the #1 qualifier in SS at Maple Grove?
Yes it was a 2010 Mustang Stocker.I think he went 9.95 in ss/ja..
Not too under factered?

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

James....Chris built a SS motor for that car.....it's not the stocker engine...that ran in indy....

Rock

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

Rock please refresh my memory. How much did you say that bridge in New York City cost?

Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 

I don't know anything about bridge pricing in New York but I am a friend of Chris Holbrook. He would never bring a knife to a gun fight. That was his SUPER STOCK spec engine.