Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Mark,

You're right about them adding divisionals and altitude tracks to the mix.

I understand that you and a lot of other people like to go fast. As you know, I have to run against the 340 Mopars. The 340 is a good combo, right? I believe you run a 340 also. It must be a good combo if you chose to build one as you like to go fast.

When was the last time the 340s got hit with HP? I could be wrong, but I don't think they've been hit since I've been running Stock. Then last year they made it even easier to protect the combo by making the triggers softer. With the new AHFS rules the 340s will probably never be hit. Awesome. :rolleyes:

My car isn't slow, but it isn't fast either. I did go an 11.07 in F/SA in the first round of class at Phoenix in 2006. Then Mark Dickerson went 10.98 at 103 MPH to beat me in the final.

Diamond Jim is freshening the Whale motor this winter. He's going to try some new things. Hopefully it will pick up some.


-Toby

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Only with new cars that are not yet accepted will this possibly happen. Once a car is in the classguide and has been given a horsepower rating it cannot be corrected because with the AHFS, NHRA's hands are tied. The first word in the AHFS is Automatic. That means the system has to do the figuring with on track data only. There is no wording in the AHFS that gives NHRA the power to correct what is blatantly underrated. Nowhere does the AHFS wording say that NHRA can add enough horsepower to correct a bogus combo on its own. The only change they can make is to give a combo less horsepower than on track performance shows via the AHFS.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

How about making the AHFS quarterly instead of twice a year?

Races 1-6
7-11
12-17
18-23

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

And who's fault is that?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Barry
As far as I know, no nation wide surveys were done. Each division SRAC member gets input from there S/SS racers from emails or conversation at the races or phone calls. Emails are the most effective way to express your ideas and there is a written record. The problem with web site surveys are you get input from non-racers so in most cases these sites are used only for up-dates. The surveys NHRA conducted last year was met with almost no response. Keep in mind you can send your input to the S/SS committee direct by email or letter and it will be considered. If you do this I would suggest you copy you SARA member so he can refer to it later if it is considered.
A lot of the ideas I have read on this site including creating new classes were sent to us by other racers and discussed and were passed over by the NHRA committiee for a variety of reasons. Some of the main reasons were that they just don't have the help to get into a complicated system and don't have the budget to create and maintain it and the new classes were not wanted because of more pay out for the sponsors. I can tell you that the first proposed change was to make it so automatic that it would have been like comp. were one run by one person could have ruined a class combination forever and posted and effective on the following week.
Contrary to what most people believe NHRA is just like any other business, they are victums to the economy and they operate and make decisions in the best instrest of there business where we like it or not. I can't say I would do it any different if I was in there shoes.
What our role should be is to be sure we can keep them well informed with as much information to the needs of S/SS racers. That is what the SRAC council did with this policy. I would like to invite anyone with fresh ideas for future rules and policies to send them in email form to your division SRAC member. But keep in mind the door on AHFS is closed for a while (or as I said earlier) unless they change there mind.

Thanks
Mike Crutchfield
D2 S/SS SRAC Member

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

From what we have heard NHRA is reviewing the altitude adjusted indexes and we should know more shortly. As for the survey I know there we several including one I took through the staging lanes at the D1 LDRS Atco fall race.

Reminder the SRAC reps represent all racers including the racers that run the new cars. (No I don’t own one)

I think some racers are asking why wont NHRA single out the new Fords and Chryslers and put them into their own class??

I say some because there are those that based upon the NHRA rules went out and spent a lot of money on one of these new combinations.
Therefore their argument is, “why penalize me when I was just following the rules.” Which makes sense.

My PERSONAL guess is that:
1. How would you write the rule since some are carbureted, some are super charged ECT it’s not like the FI cars when they hit the track.

2. Is it fair to the racers who went out and spent the money on a new car based upon the existing rules?

3. Ford and Chrysler are 2 great manufactures who are investing lots of money in to our sport. Their investment is much more than in Stock and Super Stock. They sponsor cars and teams in TF, Funny Car and Pro Stock.
As we know fans come to see the Pros and with out these manufacture involvement I just wonder what sort of Pro fields we would really have.
So my personal guess is and this has never been said by anyone at NHRA to me but it makes common sense, “why bite the hand that feeds you”.

So instead of singling out a couple combinations (even if you could write a rule that would) modify the current AHFS to aggressively adjust the out of line combinations.

This is my opinion and I know this could get the entire keyboard racers all fired up and I don’t plan on debating it online.


Kent

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

the problem with any AHFS system is that there is a way around it for the most part. If you have a combo that will run 1.50 under, and you back it down to run .99 under ( by whatever means you chose you avoid the hits. Then you step it up just enough to win heads up rounds, and the hits will come much slower. Also remember that it takes 2 fast passes to trigger, not just one.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

2. Is it fair to the racers who went out and spent the money on a new car based upon the existing rules?

Is it fair to all the cars that have 50-60-70 thou in their combo's Bad choice of words....Put them ALL in FX and in one year they will be ready for whereever.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Thanks Mike and Kent. With all the latest engine combos from Ford and Mopar being submitted to stock and superstock it will be a while before things get back to the norm. Talk about a runaway train.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Unless there is something here I do not understand, where is the incentive to improve your combination? I believe this is going to tear the very fabric that defines the Eliminator.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I actualy like the new cars and I agree that technology must somehow be partnered with corporate marketing in order to move forward however..................

I gotta agree w/ Bob here - The EFI cars had their own classes for a few years - knocked heads w/ eachother - got HP - and were reabsorbed into traditional stock classes.

No one shed any tears for those car owners..... over the fact that those people had built "legal" cars according to the "existing" rules. They got separated out... and I don't think anyone could argue that it didn't work. The situation w/ the new cars is no different. I have no skin in this game... yet.... but I don't buy that argument. I know the NHRA has their hands full - and I understand what that means - but I don't think it would take a team of people to replicate what was done in the past w/ the EFI cars.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

FYI- The EFI cars had ten years worth of significant advantage over the carburetor cars such as the 396 / 325, 455 Olds to name just a few. Does everyone want to repeat this?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

My crystal ball also said:

ALL future records will be exactly .99 under the index......

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Craig is absolutely right. There is much more of this than meets the eye. Where the hell is my incentive to buy 2 new cams and dyno? Why on earth would I call A-1 and say, "build me a new state of the art converter?" And why do I call my engine machinest and say "lets try that far fetched hone job and ring combo to see if its worth a couple?" Why do I call Hole-Shot and buy some new lighter weight wheels? You tell me why I should be proud of running my car in NHRA Stock Eliminator and slowing it down to keep from getting kicked in the nuts by the AHFS and wasting my already spent money?

So, the people supporting us, the contingency companies and so forth are going to see a drop in people buying "improvements". Why in the hell would they consider signing up again for class/win contingency sponsors?


Somebody please explain?

Wade O

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I don't think the "perks" that GM threw at Glendora were as substantial as they are with the current manufacturers to get the favorable HP figures.That being said,is it any wonder they won't put them in their own class.
Only speculation on my part.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Wade,

Thanks for seeing this as I do. The very first thing I did after reading the proposal is figure how fast I could go before being dinged. I've been working on the Corvette getting it ready to move from AA to A and now I must leave it in AA to avoid getting it hit hard. Same with the Oldsmobile. We've been getting our brains beat in for twenty years with this combination and now I have to slow it down?

No one will want to set a record and no one will want to run it out the back door to win a heads up race (with the exception of the underfactored new cars) because you will win the battle but lose the war. NHRA will not have to do away with heads up runs- we will do it for them.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Good point Bob, exactly what I was thinking. If you look at most records, you will have to go faster than this to even set one. Which will get you looked at and possible hp. Bad idea all the way around.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Bob:
The powers have chosen to, once again, ignore the real root of the problem amd are now getting the S/SS community to focus on the updating AHFS system, as though that is the real problem. You, Craig, Angelo and Wade have pulled back the fluff and exposed this effort for what it is: "Window Dressing." "Smoke and mirrors folks!!"
Underated crate motor cars (and non crate motor cars) that don't exist, lexan windows, bogus intakes, fiberglass fenders, two speed transmissions and all the rest of the rule breakers, that have been passed off as OK for new age stockers and are now supposed to be accepted. The latest atrocity is the Viper motor into a Challenger as a stocker. And on top of that, we should be "thankful" that the big three support pro teams. Why?
Perhaps you, Mike Ficacci and Craig Couris should be on that committee.
JC

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Wade, you just explained it. No intrest or reward for improvement. Very valid points that you posted. No system that can be manipulated by competitors will ever bring the desired effect. That being a closely correct hp factor. Or what some may call a level playing field.
This isn't rocket science. If a car can go 'X' fast at a very low mph then something is wrong. The answers are: Illegal parts or improper factor. Hell I still can't understand why a combo isn't subjected to a thorough tech inspection (complete teardown) before hp can be added. If I were you dp/ford owners I would be wondering about that as much as anything. Especially since those combos are relatively new technology.
This, to me, is still racing and that means making your combo as fast as possible under a set of clearly defined rules. We need to encourage racers to improve their combos under existing rules. Not change the rules everytime someone gets caught. This is one of the things that keep specialty manufacturers in business and able to post contingency.
Lastly, as said before, any system that can be easily manipulated by participants won't work not now or ever. Case in point, I just finished, last week, disassembly of a engine that got several hits on that particular combo and it wouldn't pass tech by a mile. Does that hurt anybodys feelings? It hurt 2 of my customers that run that combo.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

WOW

I had no idea so many guys can run more than a second under

I ran real fast at Pomona and was only 95 under - that use to be 125 under

Now I am learning most people are out of line more than I thought

Otherwise why all of the hub bub

Just how many heads up races have been won by the new cars anyway?

How many heads up races have been won by you guys holding so much in reserve?

The count is probably way in favor of the old cars since there are so many more.


:-) peace

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Let's cut the new car/ old car crap. This is nothing more than a factoring problem. I also have a new Cobra Jet and I can tell you it makes well over 100 horsepower more than my L-88. The Corvette is factored at 440 and the Cobra Jet is factored at 439 and the valve covers have never been off.

The Corvette has been 9.74 so it's no turd.

This is the problem and you must remember that your new car today will be old tomorrow so think about that.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

And had the 3 tenths not been knocked off in order to usher in the new factory race cars you would still be 1.25 under which is an extremely good performance from your combo!

-- How many heads ups have been won by the new cars? I take that to mean the dps and fords.......wayyyy to many seeing that these cars haven't had the time to do the 10 year thrash for that last little bit of et.

--How many heads ups have been won by the guys holding so much in reserve? Enough to get hp on combos (under the ahfs) that in a perfect world (ie: first to the finish line and legal to the rule book) shouldn't have been given out.

Exactly right Craig factoring is the whole problem not the new or old cars. It has been a problem for years and apparantly we are content to let sanctioning bodies dictate our expenditures and our budgets with a pencil, poor tech and protected factors.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Now wait just a minute according to Mike from the SRAC this was made of coutless hours and TONS of input from us the Racers I still would like a answer as to where all this INPUT CAME FROM......? Mike, Im not making this a personal attact trust me I just would like some answers, I have nothing against you, I just feel that posting this premature would do exactly what it has, What good does it do for us because we NEVER had a say in the old AHFS
Are you saying that this being up for dicussion before its finalized is actually going to make a difference ??? Please explain

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Mark, Guess I dont need that new set of Headers we talked about to catch your A-s now,
What we need is Manufactures such as yourself to get involved in this BS to be heard and
have input, To many times I have heard alot of talk at the track but see no results when it comes to the fight so to speak, And the petetion was being passed around at Bakersfield.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I can see why people dont want to spend any more money on updates or parts. Maybe their goals arent the same as mine. Its a choice to race and I do not live or die by it. I have nothing to gain but pride in how our car runs. I built our car to compete and try to be as fast as possible. I spend countless hours in the shop working on the car. I like the class because you can showcase your ideas, accomplishments or failures to your friends and they understand what your doing and why, sometimes with a laugh saying "I told you that wouldnt work!"
BUT, I can do that very same thing with a lot of different hobbies. So, why should I choose a hobby where my hardwork is rewarded with a giant slap in the face and a 100lbs?

Wade O

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Well its not done until its done.....a couple of years back I recall the E-shift drama....and even though if the potential changes are made, they will certainly affect more than just the new cars. As I read it, a stick car can affect an auto car and vice versa......that could have collateral issues not intended....

If the goal is to never go more than .99 under, tuning for 100% consistency and saving some money may be in vougue.....c-12 versus c-14 will slow it down a touch and save some $.....non-lightweight radials last a whole lot longer...don't have to have the super trick gun drilled axles, go for durability instead of aluminum everything in the tranny....might need to change that cam to a milder one too...still plenty of parts to buy, just a slighty different focus.

Assuming of course what Mike posted becomes the rule.

Eric

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Eric, I can assure you I will never re-spend 1 dime to slow my car down:)......

Wade

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

So with all the complaining going on the easy thing for the NHRA to do would be to lower the indexes by a half second or better and everyone can go back to searching for a better ET.

As an interested bystander it's peculiar to read the complaints on the new cars being under factored on one hand, and in the same breath these people are trying to hide their car's true performance. (1.5+ seconds under their index)

The way I see it, if everyone said screw it and ran their cars to the full potential, other than possible ladder differences (and being refactored over time) you would all be in the same boat as you are now, other than only being able to brag about running a half second or full second under their index as upposed to 1.5+. Where is the glory in having the performance but not showing it? If anything, a racer who triggers ahfs ET should be congratulated for his efforts, plus it forces others in his class to work harder, isn't that what class racing is all about after all?

If NHRA truely wanted to see the potential of every class car, they could eliminate break outs, and go off the index like the Comp racers. That would be some awesome racing to watch!

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Kent or Mike - Who are the other SRAC council members?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
Right on Nice Post

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

There needs to be some provision for one or two car classes to keep them from killing a class. The setting of records should be exempt from AHFS. Aren't records supposed to be the fastest and best of the class. How is that going to happen with this new AHFS?
It sure is going to put a halt to what remains of all out class elemination runs, too. TD and TS are looking better. At least they have all out qualifying.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Wade,
You can hide from the performance ****s with me…. In super stock.

Not only are they killing the performance aspect of the sport. The proposed system along with the new weight limits changes things for a lot of people. I won’t even be able to run in K because of the upper weight limit. It’s a head on attack on fast cars old or new. Maybe they didn’t like seeing a PT cruiser spank all the new factory cars at Indy.
Here is a question for the legal buffs; with the new maximum weight rule a 170# driver can drive my car in K but a whale like me cannot run the car in K. Discrimination based upon physical attributes?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

About the 340 Mopars......Then 340 Combo I currently run (E/F/G) in the A body Mopar moved to 293 HP in 2010...prior to that 289 for some years prior to that 285 for quite a while. It has been as low as 265 in the time I have been around that combo in NHRA. The same combo has been factored all the way to 299 in the E body. This is the low compression/smaller valve Version.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

random thoughts (after reading everyone's rants)

1. Many are complaining that "no one can (or should want to) go faster than -.99 under the index..... That's the same threshold we had this year (two hits of -1.00 got you reviewed).

2. Every hp review system NHRA has ever used always penalized the fastest combos in stock and SS. Wether it's the current AFHS, or the old system where NHRA would just give you hp because you are too fast, the fastest combos always got hit (most of them). - SO if you can go -1.20 under todays index.... do you think you don't need hp???

3. We all agree the dp and cjs are soft.... but so are alot of other combos.

I got more.... but... I gotta eat breakfast

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

This is just a way for NHRA to shift the focus from putting the new cars in their own class. With new combinations coming out every year with bogus hp ratings and slightly different specs Ford and Chrysler will be running vastly under factored motors for years to come. When a motor is 100 hp under factored it's going to take a long time to get it right. Instead of properly factoring these combinations as they come out NHRA will continue to roll over for Ford and Chrysler because they are getting money, cars and trucks from them.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Maybe this will make using $3000 + "enhanced" cylinder heads and intake manifolds on stockers obsolete? LOL The only cars with an advantage now are the new underrated combos. They can take hit after hit after hit and still be fast.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Don't hold your breath, Terry. The "d**k swingers" and "ego polishers" will never have a problem trashing a combo and just moving to another one.
Billy (BNRC, home of the worlds fastest Dime Rockets and "F**kin Piece of S**t" Stockers)

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

LOL......Love ya man !

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

That paragraph says it all.If you don't reel these cars in now you never will.Especially with the new ones being slipped in every year.
Let the lemmings be led to the cliffs.
Bill,wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Racers who did not get caught up in the "lets spend the kids inheritance so we can try to keep up with those who have deep pockets" may come out ahead after all.

There are an awful lot of Stock and S/S racers who run and are evidently satisfied with being .85 under or slower. Nitro Joe's Stats show about 2/3 of the racers fall into that category. If their combo gets hit with horsepower, so what. Sure they may not qualify for Indy but not everyone lives within driving distance or can even afford that much time off from work. Maybe a faster car in their class will put them on the trailer heads up but in the meantime they are racing and probably still having fun. Too bad the fast racer's money has been wasted because they are only going to be slapped with horsepower for going quick.

Maybe big bucks all out performance was NOT the way to go.

And for those fast big buck racers who do plan on parking their cars in protest, that will only lower the qualifying number to get into Indy. This is all a win-win situation for the higher percentage of racers who cannot afford to spend the big bucks. You know, the racers who get accused of not working hard enough on their cars.