Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Some good answers and good questions here... I am glad. I was worried that Wade would just get a bunch of BS stuff...

I have raced for a long time now (no where as long as Dave Ribeiro! :) ), some years much more than others... Started out as N, living in Kansas. Not really anything with I on it close 20 years ago... Moved to North Carolina, and started racing I... and N... at the same time! I was more sportsman friendly. Biggest thing was the tech officials. While I knew some nice guys at N races, the IHRA crew just seemed thrilled to have you there. They tech'ed me just as safely, but were just a happy lot doing it for most part. Money was not really that much different 10-15 years ago. And as Beard said, you still have to win.

Now I have my car set up for I, with a crate motor. No fear of top 10 qualifier, unless there is less than 10 cars! It is under the index, and I can take my kids and go have fun. I have parts for a Pontiac motor, but not the time and MONEY to put it all together right now. Work way too much... have to remind myself that I am blessed to have a job sometimes... Car is built legal for both N and I, and may get the other motor together some day.

I am happy to be able to class race some. Guess what... I am going to try to bracket race a little this year too. With my class (yea, crate motor) car.

Couple of comments on the differences. Slicks... most everyone runs 9" radials. I have both. I do keep bias tires for bracket racing and run them on hot tracks. Cheaper and last longer. I have a set of MT 29.5x9 and a set of MT 28x10.5. Tread face, and section width of the tires are within 0.2" of each other on 8" rims... 9" tire is the widest! The 29.5 grows and rubs on my car in 1/4, so I keep the shorter tire on the car. MT does not have a 28x9 or I would use it... Go measure them next time you have a chance, or stop and measure mine at the track... That is really not an issue. Not a performance advantage anyway.

Classes are really not a big deal, other than for the handful of "fast" cars, looking for a heads up run. Even in N, with limited classes, you really do not see that many heads up runs. Case in point, when there are several, we get a post started on here telling everyone to watch! If it was that common, we would not make a big deal of it.

Bottom line, we need a place to race, and the tracks have to make a living. If we want to make it better, then we are going to have to just try to support them, and let them have a chance to get it better. I am disappointed with IHRA on the contigency side, and really would like to see them do a better job of it. But, I am not going to sit at home because of it. Hell, with all my used, 10 year old, 2nd hand parts, I am not going to get to claim squat anyway! :)

Hope to see some more of you at the races. Crandall will be my first points race this year, and I cant wait!

Ken Graham

Stk 412

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Look forward to seeing your car run this year.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Cover me I'm going in:
IHRA started crate motor classes because of the lack of traditional stockers.
If the car counts went up significantly,eliminating the crate cars would cut down the classes some.
Incoming,duck.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Before you bash, no I don't have a car, but I think the NHRA mindset is the IHRA guys are not in the class with the NHRA clan. NHRA has more "big names" at the track, a MUCH bigger horse and poney show for the drag race newbies to awe over, But if you are willing to put the class records, and I can run farther under the index than you aside, and are wanting to see who can cut the light and run the stripe give IHRA a try and see if you are a
drag racer or a qualifier! Don Jackson

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Around here the IHRA SS cars also run NHRA. Same cars. Other than the crate motor cars I think the Stockers are all the same cars too.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Ed, who ever said crate would be deleted ? i work for IHRA and never heard that plan.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Jim,

I think Ed was just suggesting that crates could be "deleted" if car counts went up with more "traditional" stockers. But that's like saying "Let's drop K/SA-K/S and slower to reduce the number of classes! :p;) But seriously, all that would do is reduce the number of cars attending and we're back to lower car counts!

I think car counts and number of classes are two seperate issues that should be addressed seperately

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

I would definitely support IHRA again if they get some more truly Midwest races like we used to have in Div.5. Last week I received a mass email from IHRA and part of it was telling just how much they support the Sportsman racers and all the good programs they have for us. I was in kind of a pissy mood that day and decided I would email back whomever might read it and let them know my disappointment in them "screwing" us racers in Div.5 a few years ago. I also told them to "feel free to take me off your list" of mailings. To my absolute astonishment I received an email from Scooter Peaco (VP of racing operations) the next day and a phone call from Jon O'Neal ( Div. 1,3,and 5 director)! They were TRULY concerned about my response and my negative attitude about the "screwing" I referred to. I spoke to Jon for an HOUR on his dime and we discussed a number of "I" versus"N" issues and what actually led to the decision to cancel what was then Div.5. He had some very valid business reasons and I had some valid racer reasons of why we felt a little screwed such as reading in the IHRA paper that the cause was mostly due to "lack of racer participation" when I know that we were doing the best we could with scheduling conflicts, and trying to get other NHRA racers to show up.
Here is the point.
I truly do not understand some of these supposed "issues" some of you guys have with running IHRA. How many of you think that I could write an email to NHRA complaining about something and have Tom Compton email me and some other muck call me about my concerns? YEAH RIGHT!
My list of things to change would be NO 1/8 mile races at 1/4 mile tracks. It would also be fun to have Class Runoffs. Have a S/SS Shootout Saturday night. Have a time run Sunday morning and allow late entries to help car count. Definitely keep heads up runs in eliminations. Start some kind of "bounty" program for the person that takes out the #1 qualifier. I could come up with more ideas if I try. I'm sure all of you can too, and have.
We should ALL start calling our local NHRA tracks and inquire about them making the switch to IHRA and the excellent Sportsman program they have for us. Jon told me that IHRA would LOVE to bring back Div.5 to Iowa, Minnesnowta, Nebraska, Illinois, etc. but the biggest problem he has is getting the track owners convinced that they wont lose money and racers if they do. I used to travel to IHRA races and NEVER had a bad experience. It was always refreshing to feel like you were welcomed to the races instead of tolerated. Not to say that I didn't have fun at NHRA races because I did. But, it is a different atmosphere at a IHRA race.
As far as getting rid of classes because you may not like them give me a break! I thought we were trying to SAVE Class racing? Some of you pie in the sky NHRA die-hards need to open your eyes and see what is going on. Hell, when I won the IHRA National in Cordova I raced a bunch of NHRA regulars! What the hell is the difference when 99% of the time we DIAL IN? Does it REALLY matter that you may get out qualified by a Crate Motor car? Those types of reasons for not supporting an organization that would LOVE to show you a good time and LISTEN to our thoughts are just plain BS!
Win money? Contingency? How many races do you normally WIN in a given year that it would even matter? As Michael said, if the car counts are there the money will follow! I got almost 9 grand for Cordova in 2002. I guess I thought that was pretty good for a weekend of racing?
People, WE racers need to take control of OUR destiny if we want to keep having Class racing available to us. I say lets see what a motivated group of racers can get done and start talking to local tracks. That is where it will start. I find the IHRA people to be VERY open to RACER input. Hopefully I will be able to support them in the near future again.
Off my box, as you were, carry on.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Terry(X 1930’s tech man) when was the last time you raced? What 1968. You are a joke. You don't race you don't build engines for racers, heck when was the last time you went to a class race(2001 class nats)? You act like you run 12 races a year and we should value your views. When you build a car or buy one and show up to a NHRA or IHRA race with a SS or STker we as a group will listen to what you haft to say. Until then stay in 1975.


Facts 80% of NHRA racers will not race IHRA for all kinds of different reasons. This is just the way it is. So the only way you are going to get your car counts up at IHRA is to change the I to a N. It’s not being a smart ***** it’s just being honest Azzhol#.

Sorry Terry for posting before 8AM I know you don’t get up this early.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

I think of it as an investment for the future. When I see what IHRA has done to make racing available for S/SS racers and compare that to what NHRA has done in the past 10 years, I ask myself what are the prospects that S/SS racing will improve if the majority of racers spend money with 'I' or 'N'. You should do the same. Which organization do you think will work to improve and maintain S/SS racing in the future? There are enough negatives in either to make you want to switch, but it is the positives to focus on.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Most racers can only afford to run one series, therefore they chose to run NHRA. Some reasons:
1. More NHRA tracks
2. More of their friends will be at NHRA races.
3. They don't like running 1/8 mile.
4. They aren't members of IHRA.
5. NHRA usually has the better tracks. Not true in Div. 4 I agree.
6. Racers are unfamiliar with IHRA classes so they are not comfortable running crate motor cars, pure stock cars, gt class cars, etc.
7. Even though only a few will ever win or runnerup the payouts are less. They feel right or wrong that the entry fee is excessive compared to the payout.
I don't believe however that reducing classes would increase attendance. Adding a Sunday time trial would increase attendance.
Adding more tracks will increase attendance.
Listening to the needs of racers will increase attendance.
Having seperate classes for the new cars will increase attendance.
If IHRA can attract more racers by treating the racers better or listening better than NHRA, as these racers become more familiar with IHRA, become members, establish friendships, etc. then the attendance will increase.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

>> 2. More of their friends will be at NHRA races.

If everybody and their friends all go to the same race, then they will all be at the same race... regardless of what flag is hanging out front.

>> 3. They don't like running 1/8 mile.

Valid argument, and again, racers need to express that to the management, but in all fairness, 1/4 mile races have all suffered in attendance.

>> 4. They aren't members of IHRA.

On a number of occasions, they have extended discounts or even waivers for "crossover racers"

>> 5. NHRA usually has the better tracks. Not true in Div. 4 I agree.

1) I don't think that's true in most cases, and particularly not the case with track prep, and 2) We've seen big car count swings even at the same facility. Remember that there are many tracks that have been with both sanctioning bodies throughout the years... Norwalk, Cordova, VMP, Rockingham, Moroso/Palm Beach, Bradenton, Byron, Mid-Michigan, Quaker City, Montgomery, and many others. The quality of the track does not change with the flag at the gate.

>> 6. Racers are unfamiliar with IHRA classes so they are not comfortable running crate motor cars, pure stock cars, gt class cars, etc.

They're not heads up, and all cars are built to spec per the rulebook, like every other car.

Lots of good posts and discussion here. Keep it up.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Just more smart azzed remarks from a young punk who dosent know what he is talking about. I preped cylinder heads from 1969 until last December and for several NHRA and IHRA racers. One was the recent IHRA World Champ ! Several were NHRA record holders, Div. 1 Champs in the 70'and 80' before all the cheating started in the cylinder head dept. I raced stock in the 7 inch tire days and in S/S until around 1980 then got on the boat kick for about 10 years. Went back to work for IHRA in 1990. I dont need to explain ANYTHING to you as you were still swinging from nut to nut in your dads pants when stock was really stock, Have a nice day.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

It depends on geographics more than anything for alot of people. Many people on here get into this IHRA vs. NHRA thing, but distance is a big factor for people. Especially with fuel prices. I ran some IHRA races when they were within reason to drive to. We used to have alot of tracks of the east coast that had National and Divisional races for IHRA. Currently, I could drive 5 hours to race at Pittsburgh, which isn't even running Stock and Super Stock this year. I could drive 5 hours to Budds Creek, which would be a possibility, but that is probobly the only race I could attend in under a 7 hour drive. So why would I pay the membership to race at one or 2 races? From the NHRA side I am 30 miles from Numidia Dragway, which I race at quite often. 1hr 20mins from Maple Grove, 2hr 30mins from Cecil County, 2hr 30mins from Englishtown, and 3hrs from Atco. There are tracks like Lebanon Valley and Epping that are about a 5 or 6 hour tow from where I live, but the majority of the tracks we race at are within a few hours. That's the big reason I race NHRA. I'm close to many of the tracks.

Ryan Horensky
B/SA 1273

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

And thats a very good reason with the fuel prices going up. Please tell your dad I said hello and hope to see him this summer/fall at the Grove.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

I used to race SS in NHRA in the early 90's and always enjoyed it. Met a lot of great people and look forward to seeing those that still race when I am able to get to an NHRA event today, if only as a spectator. Well, after the President's Cup came to Maryland it was too close to home not to go to. I did'nt know exactly what to expect because I had never raced IHRA before. Well the race was in the summer and it was very hot and humid as summers are in So. Md. After I made a pass and stopped at the scales an IHRA official reached into a cooler and asked me if I would like a bottle of water. I had never received this hospitality before. I thought only the pros received this treatment. It showed that they treated every racer equally and were thankful that I was there. There are some great people in IHRA and they need the racers and the racers need them. Some of you are not happy with NHRA now. There is no telling what NHRA may do if IHRA goes away and NHRA is the only game in town. It might be for the benifit of all racers to set aside whatever reason they have not to attend an IHRA event and just go race.

Monty Cornwell

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Your right Terry I don’t know jack. But at least I race. You haven’t done jack ***** in 25 years well maybe bunch race and Bit*h about how its not the way it was in 1970. Heck I can do a stock Valve job. From what I been told you did not set the world on fire back then either.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Come on Charlie and Terry.......take it easy......Terry has a fair amount of passion for class racing...still left in him.....and that's a good thing.....he obviously can't stand to see how things are unrolling....and he expresses it on this forum....
Charlie is just tired of listening to it....all the negative stuff.....I'm not really sure if the world is ending or not.....but I bet we continue to race in stock and super stock.....We need to get the HP in line and figure out how to make it a little less expensive to race.....


We northerners are trying to recover from the worst economy ever....in Michigan its especially bad....but it is getting better....this is still a working man's sport for the most part so the thought of not getting any cars in West Palm in late January wouldn't even enter into my mind....the effort and money to get our cars back together this early is just not available...we start April 15th....we hope...anytime before that I'd be driving my stuff through snow.....we take our stuff apart in the winter and get it ready for April....

that is why Charlie is tired of listening to Terry's comments....(maybe a few other reasons too...lol)

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

CRAZY IDEA,
Do away with the ET racing part, institute heads up with cic racing at every race. Combine sticks and autos, have heads up class racing then all class winners race off for a champion. 20 points per round of Class and 10 points per round of cic. Pretty basic but it would bring back Class Racing as a performance based competition catagory instead of just being a ET Bracket racing catagory. As I said a "CRAZY IDEA" !!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

It would also kill the car counts. Better idea would be to run Class runoffs more often. Truth is, I bet a lot of people would run for "Class" for free anyway. It's almost free now as far as any payout.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Just out of couriosity how would it kill car counts when it has ben said that more people go to races that have "Class"?:confused: I personally would rather race heads up than bracket race.:)

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Trevor,you're idea falls into the realm of Comp Eliminator.The potential for the big $$$ guys to run wild will kill the eliminator.
Myron,If the cars counts stay high the crate guys could fall in line with changes to the
engine to make them N/Ihra legal.
Obviously the car counts would be dictated by the new world common denominator,
$$$$,in the form of decent payouts.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Ed,

Admitedly, Crate Motors are easier to find parts for and to work on, but with their own blueprint specs like "regular" Stockers. That is what attracted many racers to them, including myself. Over time, it might be possible to incorporate those combos among the regular Stock classes, but complaints will remain. As for the suggestion of CM racers eventually converting to an NHRA style Stocker engine, there are probably many that wouldn't or couldn't. Less expense and that I grew up working on Holley carbs with too little experience with Carters attracted me to IHRA Crate Motors. I figured I could be competitive even on a tighter budget than most. Original OEM parts are getting harder to find and with all the superceded and aftermarket parts now allowed in NHRA, many Stock combos are similar to Crate Motors anyway, especially the new cars. Things aren't getting any cheaper. So I think that the economics of converting wouldn't make it feasible because of the reasons many racers built a CM to begin with and car counts would be less than if crate combos continued to be allowed. It could also be a selling point again with newer engines and parts that the factory actually sells. Most racers can't afford a factory Drag Pak Challenger or Mustang. But more could afford an over-the-counter engine and/or parts. It couldn't hurt to keep the door open for the factories if the economy gets better.

Think of Crate Motor combos as the Stock version of SS/GT. Lots of the original Drag Pak Challenger F.I. 5.9 Magnum engines are being used in SS/GT with Jeff Teuton's Duster being the first. That is basically a crate motor!

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

I may be wrong about this but, I thought IHRA brought in more entry level classes (pure stock, stock GT, Crate motor) to provide more car count....I saw this as an effort to keep racing alive by allowing a less cost approach to the sport. I don't think they would have bothered if there were 100 natural stockers in the lanes. If they had not done that there would be 10 cars instead of 30 cars. I'm sure they would consider reducing the stock classes with a little more support from the natural guys.

Wade Mahaffey

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Thanks for the civil reply Myron.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Exactly! More people are racing because it was more economical to get involved. Car counts in IHRA have to be brought up first with support from more NHRA racers before anyone should even considering any class reduction/consolidation in any form. IHRA has made it more economical for everyone, including regular Stockers, with double-headers, qualifying for a shot at a World Championship without traveling all over the country and no surprise enhancements. Sure, payouts are less across the board. But as Michael Beard pointed out, a business can't afford to put out more money or attract contingency sponsors if racers don't show up! Either way, for less entry, travel expenses and time off from work, one can get a weekend of racing that's as competitive as anywhere else without being "filler" for the Pros! Sportsman normally have all day uninterupted, barring weather and sportsman-only oildowns. Only semi's and finals are mixed in with the Pro show and that's in front of a crowd and on TV! Don't know how many times that's been mentioned.

Ed,
Thanks. Glad to have the opportunity.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Although a bracket racer, I think it's worth pointing this out... here's a guy with a great attitude: http://www.ihra.com/article/7232.html

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Myron ,speaking of crate motors ,i just got an e-maill on GM and Ford crate motor hp reductions....GM= 350/300-305 reduced to 300 hp now.....350/330-340 reduced to 330 hp now....350/385-395 reduced to 390 hp now.........Ford= 302/320-300 (Y 302 head 285 hp) and (X303 head 295 hp) ............392/430 = ( X head 390 hp ) and ( Z head 410 hp )...Just thought i would put this out there if anyone was interested or running these engines.......

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Hmmm. I wish I remembered who was running what combo and how fast. Don't know who may have "petitioned" for some of the changes, but I know somebody in NC who will be absolutely overjoyed and can't wait to debut one of the "little" bowties in his car.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

I agree. Since there are "blueprint" specs for all these motors, there is no difference in my way of thinking than traditional stock classes, especially in light of "liberalized" specs for some traditional combinations and the acceptance of aftermarket heads for many. It also makes sense to me for IHRA to combine Stock GT classes and CM classes - there are too many similarities.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

nevermind


http://www.ihra.com/downloads/pdf/co...ateengines.pdf

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

I totally agree Mr Beard I think everyone up here should take a moment and read this article. In the end it doesn't matter if you are an I or a N we are all racers and die hard or we wouldn't be up here moaning and groaning, we are truly blessed to do what we do and would continue to do so if there was no contengecies or huge purses. It is a critical time for the sport that we all love and we need to put aside these lame excuses and do what is best for our sport. I am not saying that IHRA has the answer but I believe they are heading in the right direction, and that is our direction with the sportsman racer in mind. I ask that the N guys keep an open mind and maybe even help to support this move with their participation when able. Let's keep it real and remember how lucky we are and there are far worse places in the world, we do this because we love it so let's do everything we can to keep it going.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

I think one thing that really kills it in the Midwest is the fact that many tracks switch sanctioning bodies every 5 years or so. We used to have quite a few IHRA tracks within 3 hours of Chicago, but I think all but Byron and 41 are now back to NHRA, and Byron is considering switching back according to their website.

66, Cordova, Tri-State, Union Grove, Coles County, Oceola, all NHRA.

41 has been outlaw for a few years, but that's another story............

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

I have always enjoyed the hospitality of IHRA they are happy to have you.It would help if they would run more 1/4 mile races.There Nationals are a complete cluster f^&k.They have way too many classes for one and for the most part a bunch of retired old man that cant get out of there own way.Jim and Danny I dont mean you,Mike Baker tries very hard to satisfy his customers unlike the other assocaition.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

As my son Andrew says, "racing is racing". When you stage up against another car you're not concerned about which sanctioning body is in control. All I want to do is try and cut a light , hit my shift points and drive the finish line. For all you folks who say you don't like 1/8 mile, I say it will make you a better racer. You have to think quicker and make quicker decisions, plus the last 1/8 mile you're just along for the ride. People we need to support IHRA. We need to have as many places as possible to race. No one knows what the future holds.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Please be fair. The last national you went to was.... what, Rockingham 2008? That event WAS the worst cluster -- due to many factors, including rain showers throughout the weekend. A single worst-case scenario event over two years ago is NOT indicative of all of "there" Nationals. I won the Spring Nationals at Rockingham (same track) each of the last two years, and they were some of the best races you could ask for. The Nitro Jam scheduling bears no relation to the nationals of the past, good or bad. Heck, last year, I won the race, and we were out the gate on Sunday before 2pm, and I took the missus out to lunch! HARDLY a cluster.

That kind of statement would be like assuming that every single NHRA event is like the cluster I attended at Atco last year. Did it suck? Absolutely! Are all their races, Atco or otherwise, like that? Obviously not.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Well then run class at every race and the winners of class go on to the ET eliminations. Then you have class to draw more cars and you have the ET racing. Then every one would be making their cars go as fast as they can to win Class and to be able to race in the ET bracket race. Just seems that alot want to go back to the old days and this would be very close. There is no way to satisfy every one its just that I thought running class heads up was or used to be a big part of Stock & Super Stock. So is what it has become is just bracket racing and thats what every one wants to do? If so it sure seems like a big waste of money to build a class car if it is just bracket racing, if that is what it is all about then we have all wasted alot of money making our stuff go as fast as we can just to bracket race. Could of spent a whole lot less for just a bracket car to race at your local track.
If you want more fans to come then have heads up racing at every race and the fans will come and the racers will too.
Thats my idea and thats what would bring ME over to IHRA.:D

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

I've raced both IHRA and NHRA. I always had a positive experience when racing IHRA, but often wondered if the experience would be much different if these IHRA tracks had 100+ stockers, 100+ Super stockers, 100 + SC etc...show up. I have nothing negative to say about IHRA, just wondering if they could handle the additional cars and still provide the same experience.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

They used to do over 900 cars at the World Nationals at Norwalk.

Re: How do you get (N) racers over to the (I) side
 

Where did they all go?