Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Bill, I agree with your responce, it would be a better way of racing other then the second car get a free run. On the free pass that the racer gets, the racer can go as fast as he wants to gather as much information as he needs to get an advantage over the rest of the cars that didn't get the freebee. There is no toll to be paid for what ever he does because the other car fouls in front of him.

Casey Miles
248H Stock?

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Bracket racer Bill said:
You bulb first, you're OUT, thus depriving the second car of his chance to do what you just did, and maybe worse.

Shows how much you really know about the sport you've been in since the invention of the wheel.
I leave first and I foul.Faster cars leaves,and contrary to what Casey posted,he crosses the centerline or outer boundary.Tell me Bill,who comes back?
When either car fouls now,first or last leaver,the win light comes on the the other cars lane,so both cars can run to the end to see what they would have run in a non foulout race.
Learn the rules before you get to the track.

Come on guys put the spin on it.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

ED, I know the rules, just because it's been that way, doesn't mean it can't be changed. I've been actively racing for about 42 years, and I think that it sucks that the race is over for the second leaver before he get his shot at the tree. Make the second leaver earn the round, not give to him because of an archaic christmas tree that should be updated. Let's ask the question about cross talk, why was that added, the faster cars were bitching because they couldn't see the other side of the xmas tree because of blinders being put into place. Every change has been for the faster racers. I guess that they need all the help they can get.

Casey Miles
248H Stock?

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Bill's reply:
"Be careful what you wish for, Mister Ed....".

...

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Billy boy:
1)The guy who red lighted comes back due to the other car crossing the centerline or outer boundary.
2)Both cars can run to the end and get their race info for the run.
3)Billy boy you're only 7 years older than me,see another bull$hit comment on your part.
Keep 'em coming.
Casey you mentioned Crosstalk".You think that was a good thing?That and all the other
electronic enhancements persuaded me to stop racing in the 90s.Turned racing into
Nintendo.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Cross-talk is just another electronic crutch for the dot-nintey kids. No place in class racing. You need another crutch, a delay box, to use that, right?

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Ed,

You make me feel so young.... :)

What about the lightning strike????

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

You just won't concede the fact that you were wrong on this one.Will you?

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Uh, no he won't. Can't seem to accept it won't happen, but won't give up harping about it. Funny that many that leave first most of the time aren't on his band wagon, but he keeps going on, and on, and on, and on, and well, you know.....LMAO

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Sort of like the Energizer rabbit,right Ed?

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Hey Casey, on Saturday its 116 against and 67 for your "lets change the rules"...that means your losing dude!!!!!


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Haven't seen him, but I'm guessing he's not as cute. lol

Just went to eat with Gary and Ann Moore, and Vern Bucannon. Vern asked me if I knew Billl, told him only from here. First time I ever met Vern. Really cool guy.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

I can tell you the exact valid argument. Prior to dial in racing, stock and superstock ran off National Records. Then a group of complaining racers who were not winning campaigned to allow a new rule called "dial under", to level the playing field and make it fair for everyone.

But that was not fair enough for some. Change the rules again so you THINK you can win.

You want to get rid of the breakout inequity? I agree. Lets change that rule. Change it back to running of the national records with no break out. Problem solved.

I don't have a rule book in front of me, so correct me if I'm wrong, but a red light or lane crossing is grounds for disqualification. Going under the dial is not, it's simply a matter of doing the math.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Johnny, how much of this thread have you read?

Nobody wants to change anything about breakout rules; this whole thing is just a discussion about why should the second car to leave get a free ride to the next round (or, Winners' Circle) just because his opponent left first and red lighted. Some folks on here think that the second car to leave should get HIS chance to red light, too. They feel that there's no reason why he shouldn't face HIS red light jeopardy, too, as a matter of fairness.

Can you think of any good reason why he shouldn't? I can't...

The fact is, that the rule that creates this lopsided scenario came about in 1963 (!) when the electronic capability of correcting it didn't exist, yet, but it does, now... so, saying "It's always been that way" isn't a valid reason.
Way past time to fix it...

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

You want to get rid of the breakout inequity? I agree. Lets change that rule. Change it back to running of the national records with no break out. Problem solved.

Sounds like a good idea.But then S/SS would turn into a playground for guys with deeeeeeeep pockets.Think about it.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Ed,
I'll concede I'm wrong about that impertinent and off-the-wall statement that your namesake made when EITHER of you answers the question I have asked MANY times. but neither of you EVER answers, which is, "Can you give me ONE GOOD, LOGICAL, LEGITIMATE REASON NOT TO CHANGE THIS LOPSIDED, UNFAIR RULE?"

I think I'm safe....

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

I've read it all. You must not have because I've already explained the redlight part several pages ago. Then, while further reading the whole thread, the breakout rule was questioned and asked for a re-write. So I responded to that. Now, I'm responding to you. See? Now please read what I wrote on the redlight issue and you will see my thoughts on it.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

I have deeeeep pockets. I want the rule changed to suite my agenda. Just like everyone else. Anybody who lobbies for fair for all is an absolute saint or a liar. I've never met a saint. Liars lobby for their perceived advantage under the disguise of fairness. Met them...

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Read my post # 13. (red lights)
Bunkster Post # 22 (change breakout rules)
YOUR post # 23 (you agreeing with Bunkster on breakout rule revision)

Once one vehicle breaks out, the other vehicle ought to be immune?

Bunkster: "The first to foul, and the first to breakout are always the loser." Seems like this would be a consistent application of the notion of "first".
Bill Dedman: "wish I'd said that"

And you just told me nobody wants to change breakout rules. Guess you're no saint.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

And on, and on, and on, .... :-). Bill, I personally don't really care either way. However, it ain't gonna happen. Get real. They aren't going to spend any money on a software change to change anything to suit any group of people that has been calling them crooks, thieves, and worse when that group is a minority. Just won't happen, no matter how much comaining goes on.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Logical, and legitimate reason:

Once the first car fouls, THERE IS NO RACE from that point on. The red lighter has been ELIMINATED and the race is OVER.
It's O V E R. Can't get any more logical than that.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Is that so.Maybe you can reach in one of those deep pockets and throw a one year sponsorship to an old on the balls of his ***** racer so I can take my low buck operation on the road this year.
Me and my fellow low buck group get great a great satisfaction out of knocking off a big dollar guy now and then.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

You think that's a reason not to change it?

That's the status quo; not a reason at all.

What's your opinion of a reason not to change it? When does the other car get HIS chance to red light in this race? Don't you think conditions should be the same for both cars?

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

See? You can't do it.

He can't do it either, because there IS NO GOOD, LOGICAL, and LEGITIMATE reason NOT to change it.

Think about that... all the opportunities both you and Ed F. have had to shut me up for good, by explaining how what I am proposing is going to damage Class racing as we know it (or, Bracket racing, for that matter.)

All it will do is improve the fairness of the system. No longer will the first car to leave be the "patsy," if he bulbs, sending his opponent to the next round on a freebie that he did NOTHING to earn.

It is beyond my understanding, how anyone could think this is a "bad" change.

But, some people just like to argue, even when they know they're wrong.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Here's you post #13 on red lights: "So dumb to even continue this but I can't help it.
It's so simple. Once the first car fouls, THERE IS NO RACE from that point on. The red lighter has been ELIMINATED and the race is OVER. What the second driver does after that is of no consequence because the round is already over. Unless foul worse than a red light occurs. It's a time trial, test n tune pass, a chance to win the Perfectly Strange award, if they still have that, wave to you friends whatever.
So take that last beating you dead horse......"

All that did was tell us that you have NO UNDERSTANDING that with the new red light rule, THE RACE WON'T BE OVER UNTIL BOTH CARS HAVE EACH HAD THEIR CHANCE TO RED LIGHT. That's the whole point of this discussion. If you don't understand that, at this point, I'd suggest you enroll in some remedial reading comprehension classes.

RE: Bunkster's post #22: He said, "The enthusiasm for "first" in the case of the starting line, I presume this would apply to the finish line as well?

Once one vehicle breaks out, the other vehicle ought to be immune?

"The first to foul, and the first to breakout are always the loser." Seems like this would be a consistent application of the notion of "first".

He knows that nobody will go along with a stupid rule like that, so he's comparing it with the OTHER stupid rule, the current red light rule.

Since you didn't "get that" (the sarcasm) I can see why you thought what you thought.

Try to keep up...

My agreeement with his sarcasm in post 22: "Excellent logic, Mr. Bunkster. I can't imagine a valid argument against what you have suggested.

Wish I'd said that...

The only instance a "first red light" makes any sense is in a heads-up race. DUH..."

See, I trashed both the red light AND the first breakout in the last sentence...

Nobody DOES want to change the breakout rules. Ask anyone... I sure don't.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

[QUOTE=johnny shot;244132]You want to get rid of the breakout inequity? I agree. Lets change that rule.QUOTE]

WHAT "breakout inequity???"

I have never heard a serious comment that there is ANYTHING wrong with the breakout system as it exists. If you're referring to Bunkster's sarcastic comments, I must remind you that he was just illustrating the point thst a "first red light" rule is absurd, and illustrated his point with a "What if breakouts were on the same basis." It was a joke... but a joke with an illustrative purpose.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Tell me your conception of the "perceived advantage under the disguise of fairness" that would exist under a new red light system wherein BOTH cars had an equal chance to red light, every time at bat. They don't now, you know... IF the first to leave bulbs, the second car suffers NO red light jeopardy like the first car did, and gets a free ride to the next round.

Is THAT not a "perceived advantage?" No, it's a REAL advantage, and needs to be eliminated. Drag racing has enough problems with fairness (AHFS; HP Factors:Politics: Shall I go on???) and this is one that's been around for 48 years and is an easy fix, now.

Let's fix it! :)

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Let's see now...

* The first car to be found light at the scales shall be the loser.

* The first car to be found with too much camshaft shall be the loser.

* The first driver to be found intoxicated shall be the loser.

* The first car to be found wrong at fuel check shall be the loser.

Okay. Now I am beginning to see the error of my thinking. Now all is beginning to make sense.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Bunkster, your thinking IS in error because the second, third, fourth, ad infinitum would also be eliminated in those instances. So those points are moot!

Jerry

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

This just gets more funny as it goes along.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

I`m still trying to figure out why I keep coming back to read this mumbo jumbo. This thread is like a train wreck,you have to keep watching it.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Like a lot of us, you enjoy a good laugh.

You would think it would eventually just die.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Bill, we've been over this before, but I will repeat it. Again. There is NO good, logical, legitimate reson for the current system, in the picture of fairness. BUT...

The current redlight rule, in the big picture of the present and (possible) future of Class Racing, is 'small potatoes' compared to the many, more pressing issues we face. If I were making a list of the Top 10 complaints felt by many racers (or, at least by myself), this issue would not make it. In no particular order:
1) We run on sometimes suspect track conditions, and sometimes on a cold, dewy evening track.
2) Contigency money has dwindled significantly.
3) Class Eliminations as we know it has all but ceased to exist.
4) The major sanctioning bodies are 'enhancing' us right out of the sport, with rules changes, added costs for pit bikes, etc.
5) The AHFS is broken. See early season qualifying sheets.
6) We have many new cars, many of whom would deem them to be 'not in the spirit of a true Stock Eliminator car'.
7) Current rules on tech that are not uniformly enforced.
8) The current payouts are not much more than the payouts were many years ago.
9) Getting pushed back for a day or two at a Nat'l event due to weather, oildowns, etc.

And on and on. If the MAJOR issues are resolved, than I would be more inclined to talk about the redlight issue. I think that is the reason why many don't support your cause as much. We realize that this issue (first/worst redlight) is a misdemeanor in the world filled with felonies in regard to modern NHRA/IHRA Class Racing.

Also, like I stated to you before (probably last year or whenever the last time this annual topic comes up), if you feel so strongly about this issue: Take up a petition, get everyone who supports a worst redlight scenario to sign, and mail, e-mail, fax, whatever, to everyone at NHRA, IHRA, local tracks, etc etc. But please, stop beating this dead horse, and actually DO something about it, instead of contantly harping about it on here annually. Please? I don't beg very often, but I'm begging you now. And yes, I would probably sign the petition if/when you started one.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Bill, i gave you one, and you even agreed with it. Or is that too far back for you to remember

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

I think you guys will need some of these items if you want to attempt to repair anything involving NHRA.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

Isn`t that the truth!

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

excellent points

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

If you give Old Bill,Bunkster and god old Gary a good head shaking you'll hear some noise.That's probably the contents of their noggins.
Doesn't Bill remind you of the kids in the schoolyard who when they're out of anything to say come up with nah nah nah nah nah nah?Bill you're 72 act your age.Now go in the kitchen and have your bowl of oatmeal.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

OK F me, one last time. You want opinion or logic? Reason or fact? You keep changing your demands.

My reason to not change it? I don't feel it's broken.
Fact? It's a current rule that we must abide by.
Logic? Once the first car red lights the race is over.
Opinion? It is the same for both cars. Some times you are first to leave, giving you the chance to eliminate your self. Some times you are second to leave, giving you the chance to win be your opponents red light.

You asked for an opinion of a reason, don't know what that means. These are the facts/reasons/opinions/logic AS I SEE IT. There is zero chance you will change my mind. You keep asking for a reason, indicating that if one is given you may change yours. I don't care one way or the other what you want, nor am I interested in changing your mind. You asked, I answered. I speak for myself, and don't care who is on the band wagon with me.

And Ed, very democratic of you to ask for a hand out for you to go racing.

Re: Redlight Poll (Revised)
 

And Ed, very democratic of you to ask for a hand out for you to go racing.

Hey,what the hell,I figured it was worth a try.