Re: Another low car count?
 

I'll be getting the 13" V2 Competition wheels to match the pair on the back. They're about 10lbs. Silver ones are currently backordered, but hopefully available in the next couple weeks.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Chip and Charlie
I think I can give you a little insight on what a state of art super gas car vs a class car cost, Justin SG 68 Camaro roadster by the time you get it race ready with buying the roller lightly used, with a all alum 632, all top shelf parts and will have cost $68000. It will run 9.90@166 or so and high 7s all out and has won 3 nationals so I would say it is a competitive super gas car.
Put a new Racetech 245 swing-arm dragster together middle of last year when it is all said and done with a Madcap 572, nitros, top shelf trans and convertor, Mark Williams brakes, axles, Aeromotive fuel system, Racepak dash all good parts and you are talking about 60k.
We also have a Super Stock Colbalt and the chassis alone was more than either one of those cars. But you are talking about a car that can also be quite competitive in comp also. We had previously had a 1984 Chevy Camaro that we ran in ss/bs and I sold it turnkey for $30000 with a fresh engine that would run 80 under.
As for pump gas, we do not have anything that has ever run on pump gas.
Which is more Fun?
Running the Cobalt in Comp, nothing like trying to go as fast as possiable every run.
Which is the hardest?
Super Comp everyone is so close on the tree and most everyone out west has really good quality cars in super comp.
Which is most frustrating?
Running the Colbalt in comp, Justin can do everything right and still be in the 2n or 3rd round with no chance of winning, you have to depend on the outcome of other races alot in comp.
Justin has also had the chance to drive this year a CJ Mustang thanks to Rodger and he says it just might be the prefect super stock car, low maintence, smooth, fast, and if you look at the cost of buying/building a top 20 qualf. super stocker by the time you get engine, chassis and eveything needed it would be close to the same price and you will need to have the engine serviced every 70 to 100 runs compared to a CJ every 5000 miles.
As for the low car count in stock and super stock compared to the index classes I think alot of it might be that it seems that there seems to be more fun to be had in index racing, the 8.90/9.90 racers seem to welcome new competition were it seems that in stock/super stock no one talks to outsiders. Maybe the stock/super stock racers needs to start taking some time and visiting with the local bracket racers and junior racers and get then interested in class racing.
Chris Lamb

Re: Another low car count?
 

Chris,

The only thing I know about that CJ of yours is it's LOUD! I was down there taking video right next to it in the water box and I thought it broke the microphone. I had to get some earplugs after that. :)


-Toby

Re: Another low car count?
 

Chris,
Thanks for the post. It's all expensive. A top 10 car in either class is costly and especially in SS costly to maintain.

A funny story: A few years ago in my last attempt in a stocker. Bill Plage told me you have a stocker again and can park with us. I told him I may park with ya'll "CLASSY RACERS" but I'll hang with the .90 racers they know how to have fun.
LOL
Chip

Re: Another low car count?
 

"As for the low car count in stock and super stock compared to the index classes I think alot of it might be that it seems that there seems to be more fun to be had in index racing, the 8.90/9.90 racers seem to welcome new competition were it seems that in stock/super stock no one talks to outsiders. Maybe the stock/super stock racers needs to start taking some time and visiting with the local bracket racers and junior racers and get then interested in class racing.
Chris Lamb"

Chris, not every young bracket racer or "junior" has the assets to race a 60K+ .90 car and either Super Street or a lower class stocker is actually a better venue for someone getting started. My personal experience after decades of brackets and just getting a stocker a year ago has been that stock/super stock racers are equally willing to help with questions. Think it is in all our best interests to cultivate new racers in class racing including .90 classes or the ultra affordable Unleashed classes will be the only game in town.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Jim,
My first year in Stock very few racers were willing to help/share advise.
My second year of stock more came around. Later they were asking me for advise.LOL
There were still some very secretive racers out there in S/SS.
Chip Johnson

Re: Another low car count?
 

And not that way with .90 racers? Really? My experience is people are people, no matter what they race.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Well, one example of the 90's friendlyness=
My son has won several world championships in IHRA....He has always helped his fellow racers on throttle-stop set-ups and help dial a lot of the 90 cars. In a lot of instances he has been beaten by those same racers that he has helped. A lot of racers call him all the time with questions and advise and he has never refused to help...... Now as for s/ss I understand a racer not wanting to tell you every little trick as i respect the fact that they have worked long and hard on their combos. I have had a lot of help from racers on this forum with my stocker.I have been working on my combo for about 4 years now and with some of you guys help and a little trial and error i have been able to get my car to about 85 under so far..As money will allow i will do more and get it faster. I would like to thank those who have helped me on here (you know who you are )....Sorry about the long letter here....

Re: Another low car count?
 

Toby, yes it is very loud

Jim you are right, we started with a super street car and then after Justin turned 16 we bought him a used 4 link dragster and he did quite good in it and started to win a make a little name for himself but if it was not for a chance metting at a rest area on the way from Denver to Seattle with Phil Montith? and the time he took to explain stock and super stock racing to us and him convincing Justin that his talents would fit those classes the best I am sure we would be in Top Dragster/Top Sportman today. That is all I am trying to say and the funny thing is it seem that the more sucessful the stock/super stock racer is the more he is willing to befriend the new comers. Peter and Sal Biondo,Jim and Jimmy Defrank, Kyle Siepel, Jody and Tody Lang and other national event winners and national champs all took time to talk and help Justin when they did not even know him. So imagine if every stock and super stock racer took some time to explain to the other racers how much fun and challenging class racing is. We started in super stock with a $20000 camaro and the 1st used dragster we bought was $20000 so i would think it is comparable in start-up cost, and we held our own with that car.

Chris

Re: Another low car count?
 

Art, can't racers enter/pay at gate for Sportsnational events?

Re: Another low car count?
 

I was talking about Vegas, Usually a heavy contested race for stk and ss.
Not the sportsnats at them you can pay at the gate.

Re: Another low car count?
 

now let's say you take a super stock car that runs 8.90 with a legal motor,and compare the price of a motor (any size you want) in the same car too make it run 8.90 with no rules,would it be cheaper and easier to make it run 8.90 ? i think it would be.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Yep and it would last a lot longer to.

Re: Another low car count?
 

I raced a couple of National Open events in Super Street with my old bracket wagon and discovered that it was a very competitive class, the racers were great people, and that it was a great way to get into NHRA Sportsman racing. It just isn't my cup of tea.

I don't know why I am so attracted to Stock Eliminator. The money is just brutal in the first place and I keep picking combinations that belong in a museum and building them in house. I've had to take a few "vacations" over the years due to kids, breakage, etc. I still keep coming back. Going a second under (the old index) was a huge accomplishment for us in our home built '64 Plymouth but of course totally un explainable to anyone except, well, you guys!

I might not always come back. A great S/SS car is a motor away from being a great bracket car. I could put my Max Wedge under a blanket in the corner of the garage and go racing with a pump gas 440 for a couple of hundred bucks a weekend.

See you in Boise!

Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock 6621

Re: Another low car count?
 

I agree 100% and I have had stock racers close the hood in my face when I was just trying to take a look and have fun.Most stock racers are Super!

Re: Another low car count?
 

They thought you was undercover tech.....lol

Re: Another low car count?
 

Drag racing especially st/sst is no different from the rest of the world. It takes money to make money. When you have a guy like Dan Fletcher quit running a class altogether because guys are coming in w/100,000 drag pak challengers and mustangs its a sign that the apocalypse is upon us. You wanna improve car counts? Eliminate heads up class racing at nat events and pts races. Why you say? Because it would make it fair for everyone not just the dickjockeys w/the big wallets and factory backed cars [no offense to those guys]. I know slate cummings and i know that he would not say anything about it because hes a classy sumbitch but that man criscrossed the country and kicked *** all year long and lost the world championship because of a heads up race. To me thats appalling. It may sound like sour grapes coming from a low buck racer but if you think car counts are low now wait till guys like me stop coming. In my humble opinion everything that goes down a drag strip should have a dial-in on it. Top fuel funny car pro stock maybe not. Personally I think that would be entertaining to watch because Bob Bode winning last year was a fluke. The Lagana boys the greek the 10 -16 qualified guys virtually never win. Every other class dial-ins every run down the track. Then the guy w/the a/sa 69 camaro that can outdrive the **** out of the guy in the new mustang or challenger but can only run a 10.20 still has a chance. Then car counts go through the roof. By the way its a crime that superstreet is not run at indy.Peace

Re: Another low car count?
 

treekiller, that is why we have SST, SG and SC, they are all heads up and costs half as much to race as compared to a stock or SS car. You race and build what you can afford ... my friend built a 428 powered pontiac dragster that runs 8.70's, he has about $20,000 in it and wins just as much as a $70,000 pro built dragster .. and by the way Dan Fletcher did not quit racing stock and super stock, his kid(s) are driving them. He changed class in stock to get away from the fast new cars. He does what he can afford and what makes the most sense.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Spoken like a true bracket racer. Thats why your style of racing was started. It's for people who for one reason or another are not willing to invest either the time and or the money to build a car fast enough to be competitive in a heads up race. It's not for every one but we certainly don,t need it watered down anymore than it is. Theres already to many classes and not enough heads up racing now. to many places to hide from the fast guys.

Re: Another low car count?
 

DRUGS......yep thats it....Drugs made him post this ! LOL

Re: Another low car count?
 

That's probably it. treekiller, huh? LOL

Re: Another low car count?
 

just out of curiosity because ill never know how much fun is it really to race when the guy in the other lane is irrelevant and has no chance to win whatsoever just because youve got him covered by three or four tenths and you dont even need to try to cut a light just wait for him to leave and run him down? Thats fun? Dont get me wrong watching guys spray 300lbs of nitrous and doing wheelstands that start at the 1/8 mile and demolishing cars is entertaining but its even more entertaining putting them on the trailer when they try to bracket race.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Isn't there a bracket race section here?

Re: Another low car count?
 

touched a nerve?

Re: Another low car count?
 

Kidding, right? Just annoying.

Re: Another low car count?
 

No nerve touching.
Just you come on here spouting your opinions, and think everyone thinks like you.
Stock and Superstock are performance based.
That means you build a car for the class if someone is faster than you, you change classes, wait till they get factored, or work harder (spend more money).
Bracket racing requires almost no car skills. Your daily driver can be as competitive as a 8 second dragster.
But you have to realize these cars have no class.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Art---touche' !!!!!!!

Re: Another low car count?
 

No nerve touching here either, just don't expect to come onto a Stock/ Super Stock forum promoting bracket racing and expect all to agree with you. That would just be silly. Jim

Re: Another low car count?
 

recent ihra race in dallas 19 stockers 7 superstockers....... just talking about ways to improve car counts seen races w/ less. guys with the money are always against bracket racing for obvious reasons. who wants to come in w a 80000 stocker and get put on the trailer by someone in a 10000 car?

Re: Another low car count?
 

Yup, the economy has hit all racers. Some class cars might be forced to regress back to local bracket racing. The majority of class cars have much more invested in their drive trains and are purpose built to run like classed cars and be able to come out on the winning end of a heads up run. A loss is a loss whether it's to a $10,000 bracket car or a $150,000 factory race car. Most class racers I know don't like to lose to either. Jim

Re: Another low car count?
 

Look, guys, there are two trains of thought here... some guys want to compete against other drivers with their driving skills and ADDITIONALLY compete their CAR against all other cars in the class (and eliminator) performance wise. That means testing, tuning, trying new parts/adjustments to make your car equal to or better than the best of it's kind.

Then there is bracket racing, where you JUST want to compete against other DRIVERS to win, the car is just the tool to get the job done and you can pick whatever car you have a liking for, and use whatever parts you decide will work for you. You can also pre-determine what budget will be comfortable for you, and compete within that budget - that, to a large extent, will determine what performance levels at which you can successfully compete, but once decided, you can build a car and stick with that combination as long as you like and stay competitive. Both approaches are valid, but which one appeals to you most depends on your own personal makeup.

For those technically inclined, S/SS/Comp holds an innate fascination with extracting performance, and doing it better than the other guy. Also by it's very rules-driven nature for parts origins and allowable modifications, makes achieving any given level of performance more expensive than doing it with unlimited choices of parts & modifications. Longevity of parts and combos is often sacrificed in search of more performance, and the necessary maintenance to stay in the hunt are part of the landscape.

For most bracket racers, consistency and simplicity are the key factors to winning, and these goals are much easier and less expensive to achieve, and constant upgrading and testing is not absolutely necessary to maintain your competitiveness.

A lot of racers enjoy participating in both camps, but the core of these two groups are motivated differently, so they see the racing in a different light from each other, and have differing concerns... there is no reason to bicker over which is best, or who the real racers are, just understand they are different, and work on how to structure races to work best for each group (and how to make each the most appealing to the paying spectator).

As to the car counts, it's obvious that NHRA programs address the index racers in a more satisfactory way than for the Class racers. Also, especially with the newest "enhancements", the choice and timing of what races to attend and when to enter with a Class car depends a lot on the personal assessment of my ability to have the car properly prepared and competitive at that particular race & time. I think this may be the same for a lot of other Class racers and a contributor to the low car counts prior to raceday. So that still leaves the question: to improve car counts, how do we make it better for the Class racer??? Who should be making the decisions, and how do we implement them? (How much does NHRA care?)

I wonder, if we compare the number of index cars that COULD enter, to the number that attend a given race, and do the same for the Class cars, would there be a similar percentage drop?

Re: Another low car count?
 

Vegas is not a cheap place to stay anymore that along with the economy the price of diesel, increase entry cost.. ect factors in to the low car count . I did notice that the quotas are less than in years past Just wonder how full the super classes would be if the quotas were more ? I know in the past S/C & S/G would draw well over 120 cars at most Div events

Re: Another low car count?
 

Marvin, I don't think anyone on this forum that races stock and SS are bickering with anyone that races brackets, the point they are trying to make is there is a place on this forum for stock & SS comments and there is a place on this forum for bracket racing comments. Making bracket racing comments in the stock & SS section makes no sense.

Re: Another low car count?
 

IMPROVING CAR COUNTS make it fair WOW what is sooooo hard to understand?

Re: Another low car count?
 

Gotcha.... treekiller is right on the money, too!!!!

Re: Another low car count?
 

Makes it fair for who?

Re: Another low car count?
 

Just say no to eliminating heads up races in Stock and Super Stock. Take out the chance of getting a heads up race, and it's just another bracket race, only with more expensive cars, and a smaller purse. Exactly who is going to go to a bracket race that costs $305 to enter and only pays $1500? Especially with an expensive and difficult to maintain class car?

I had a conversation the other day with a guy who may be the very best class car chassis builder in the country. He said the only thing that got him to the track lately was the Hemi cars at the Hemi shootouts, because everything else had become diluted and convoluted.

I'd rather get beat heads up every so often, than have nothing but a pure dial in bracket race. If we get beat by a new car heads up, he's got nothing at all to brag about, and we've got nothing to hang our head about. I quit racing years ago after doing nothing but bracket racing and .90 super class racing for years. I was bored stiff, and sick of it. The ONLY reason I came back to the sport I love is the chance to work with class cars.

Make it all bracket racing, and I'm done. I have nothing against guys who bracket race, and .90 super race, some of my best friends do it, and more power to them. But I am done with that. If it comes to nothing but that, I'll spend my time hunting and fishing, and getting my pilot's license.

Re: Another low car count?
 

X2

Re: Another low car count?
 

The "Alternative Lifestyle Weekend/ RV Rodeo"crowd. You know, the majority of the people going there now.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Why is the idea of having to drive your car to win a race instead of just having the fastest one on the property so distasteful to some? How much money do you win for winning class eliminations? If you win a national event without running another car in your class all you have done is win a bracket race. Does that not feel worth it unless you outrun 3 cars in your class while cutting 150 lights? Cmon