Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

What do you expect from a no name sniper?Must be a little pee pee syndrome.Anyway
the payouts need to be addressed.But that's on the Glendora's list of things to do about
when to have the windows on HQ washed.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I'm sorry Ed, I tried to put a fork in it. Billy Nees is right but Ed's Pamela anology is quite appropriate since she's Canadian I might put in a good word for you Ed... and maybe not, she doesn't take my calls either. Unfortunately Compton and the rest are just looking out for their own pockets. Hard to find men like Wally Park and Robert Petersen who had unselfish visions. I'll finish with those incredible words of wisdom from the lips of a great race car want to be racer Rodney King" can't we all get along"!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Using ED's logic, if you don't like sitting there a long time, BUY A SLOW CAR.

If you think that's skewed logic, I agree; but it cuts both ways...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If you think that a poll taken about ANYTHING on this BB has any validity at all, you're dreaming, or know nothing at all about statistical measurement.

What happened on the "weigh the drivers with the cars" issue was that Don Nicholson and a group of BIG Pro Stock drivers applied some leverage tp NHRA officials and got them to see things their way. Had nothing to do with popular opinion or any kind of poll...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Doesn't matter what you or I think Bill, it ain't gonna change because a small group complains about it here. Talk to N & I HRA. No leverage here. Surely your bright enough to get that. Ten (or fewer) guys on an Internet message board is not going to change that.

Btw, I don't leave 2nd five times a year. Div 4 SS is run over with 8 second hood scoop cars. I most always leave first. Doesn't bother me, or most others, the way it is. Change or not, I don't care. Regurgitating this over and over here (especially without popular support) won't change anything.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

[QUOTE=Ed Wright;254743 "Most racers do not want or care about this. "]QUOTE

How many racers who run Stock and Super Stock have you interviewed aboit this??? Or, is this based on your worthless poll?

Please answer the question. I want to know where this opinion of yours comes from.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

[QUOTE=bill dedman;254857]Doesn't matter, ain't gonna happen, but:
It (among other things here) has been discussed, and laughed about, in the staging lanes while killing time waiting for the endless line of throttle stop engines-on-a-stick cars run ahead of us. The slow cars that might be in favor are in the minority. You have not seen any polls here, or anywhere else, with my name on it.

Isn't there a bracket racing section here?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Thanks again Claude.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Yes, Ed, I have agreed that this rule will probably NEVER change, but not for the reasons you profess.

It won't change because NHRA has lost its soul, and the people who at one time, would have moved heaven and earth to make a change (like they did with the "first to break out" rule, remember?) to a more equitable and fair rule, have moved on in one way or another, and are not to be found at NHRA any more. If it's not going to benefit the NHRA coffers, it's not going to happen.

But, the facts are:

In handicapped racing as regards Stock Eliminattor and Super Stock Eliminator, , there is an unequal red light jeopardy that manifests itself anytime the racing is anything but heads up.

If the first car to leave red lights, the second car has been deprived of the responsibility to cut a better (less offensive) light than the competition in the other lane.

Why would you want to implement such an advantage for EITHER car???

Electronic technology that was not available in 1963, when this system came into play, now exists, to rectify this unfair situation. Not to put it to use is to ignore the great efforts that NHRA has made (until rececently) to make racing as fair and equitable as it could be.

All those hours in the teardown barn are directed at that very proposition. That kind of thinking has been part and parcel of this sport's soul since its inception.

Then, this issue comes along, and the small effort to fix it is just more than NHRA wants to take on???

Guess so...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bill Dedman
I will say that your opinion on the VERY DEAD topic is entertaining. But ya know what they say, "You can't fight city hall", because in this case, city hall doesn't really give a damn. Lets take it from the top, you leave first, you go red first, you loose first. Its been that way for a long while and will stay like that for a longer while. I think you should put your efforts into another fantasy, maybe Pam Anderson, seems to work for some of the other patrons here.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

not this **** again, really? i expect it every 6 months to a year, but hell its only been like 3 months. give it a rest, i mean can we wait for another horse to die before you beat it?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

It will be a dead horse when somebody, anybody, posts a good, reasonable, legitimate reason why it should not be changed.

That hasn't happened in twenty kazillion posts from people who give a million and one reasons why they don't WANT to see it changed, but never from anyone who can tell me:

1. what is fair about it, as it stands.
2. how changing it will impact racing (as we know it) in any negative way.
3. any LEGITIMATE reason NOT to change it.

Instead, people post, "Oh, not again!!!" messages to try to negate the real reasons why It needs to be changed, and personal insults and ridicule from people who, when they can't come up with sensible comments advocating leaving it alone, try to direct attention away from the factual issues at hand, and rely on "killing the messenger"...

They can't defend it, because, it's so unnecessarily unfair to the first car to leave, it's indefensible.

Until someone comes up with a defense of the current rule, (not gonna happen!) and proves that changing it to a "worse red light" rule would be some sort of a mistake, it will live on in infamy as proof positive that NHRA cares little or nothing about the fairness of their rules.

This is not just about "slow" cars vs. fast cars. ANY 2 cars, a AA/SA vs. an A/SA car that run handicap races against each other, for example, are affected.

Not a dead horse at all... yet.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Charlie, did you like the "first car to break out" rule? Maybe you weren't racing at that time...

NHRA had the digital wherewithall at the time, to fix it, and they did.

Now, many years later, they have the digital wherewithall to fix THIS.

Can you tell me a good, legitimate, reason why it should remain in its antiquated, patently unfair state, now that there's a cheap, easy-to-implement, "fix" (software modification) available???

I hope you still find this "enteraining" when someone with a quicker-handicap car, puts you on the trailer because even though his redlight infraction was much worse than yours, he was able to send you home, because you had the bad luck to HAVE to leave first.

Maybe you'll think about this conversation in a different light, if that ever happens (and, it could.)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

the problem is your canadian!!!! just kidding............. i own faster class cars for just this reason if you dont like the rule build a faster car. for the most part the nhra s/ss sportsman rules have been just fine for a long time stop trying to change them.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

happened to me at the e town national 2010, .005 red to a .061 red (i think that was his red light) i was the slower car and lost due to the red light. oh well !!!! i went home kicking my self for pushing that hard but still would not change the rules. i screwed up not nhra the tree my car his car the starter or anyone but me!!!!!! leave the rules alone.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I'm in agreement with Bill, people seem to ridicule you if you have a different point of view on this site. Not everyone is whinning about rules that should have been changed years ago to make competition on an evan playing field for everyone. If you don't agree with the comments, put up an arguement why it shouldn't be changed, rather then just demean the person who made the statement.
As far as deep staging, the only reason the pre-stage light is there is to let you know that you are close to the starting line, without that light, alot of people would never be able to stage period.

Casey Miles
248H Stock?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

no one is being ridiculed for having a different opinion. I have said before that i am not opposed to it, really don't care one way or the other. However i have said time and again that stock/ss is not the place to test a new system, bracket racing would be best for that, start from the ground up. NO ONE built a car and decided to go racing without knowing how the system worked, if it bothers you that much, quit. This issue is not even in the top 10 of things that concern 95% of class racers with what is going on at NHRA right now.

People are being ridiculed because they are a one trick pony, and are beating to death a subject which is not going to change any time soon. This keeps getting brought up, and the same crap happens. It reminds me of Ralph Nader constantly running for president. Everyone knows he doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell, but you will see small groups of his supporters, and they look like idiots.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

[QUOTE=Rob Petrie E395;254660]I agree it does not matter But I will say this. It is a advantage if the slow car goes red but if he goes green and the faster car has to sit there for a long time before the tree comes down whos advantage is it then? Ever sat at the tree for over 10 seconds waiting for your turn? Its not easy either. I dont race S/SS but this rule will effect everybody.[/QUOT

Would implementing this make slower class cars have an advantage then? U/SA would become the killer class?

The idea of "first to break out" would bring out some cars with really big brakes!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

In the end, Bill's ( or anybody else's) long-azzed rants do not matter. It won't change.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bill
I really think you need a different hobby, something a bit more soothing......................maybe meditation or yoga

Or maybe JUST BUILD A FASTER CAR!!!!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

No body is saying that the program is going to change, but why was X-talk introduced? It was a way that both drivers could see the same light come on in Box bracket racing, in escence they are both leaving off the same light. Since we aren't using Boxes in S/SS, the rational would be to make it fair for both racers to have to at least make an attemp at the tree without the other one's knowlege of what happened in the other lane.
We are not idiots and not going to quit, just seeing the forest though the trees.
Just because you think that Ralf Nader and his supporters are jerks, they are keeping the checks and balances of politics alive so that you can say your opionions.

Casey Miles
248H Stock?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Casey, ralph nader and his crew are totally irrelevant in today's politics

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

"if it bothers you that much, quit."

That's the mindset that is responsible for it being still a rule, 47 years later.

Don't you think fixing what is wrong with it, is preferrable to to changing hobbies?

All this rhetoric and nobody has YET given me a reason why it shouldn't be changed.

And, they won't... It's indefensible.

Doesn't that jiggle your brain just a little, that NO ONE can come up with a justification for giving free rides to some cars, when they did NOTHING to earn them?

Everyone needs to have the SAME CHANCE to red light.

Can you tell me why they should not?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Claude,if you bring up this subject again I will personally flatten the whole territory of Canada till it resembles the Bonneville salt flats.You woke up the Godzilla of Irrelevence
again.Thank you very much.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Awe crap, do the pros bitch about this ? Why go on and on "Its Futile"

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Oh no ,keep this going . ...Great entertainment. It's about as much as I can afford right now.

I love watching these verbal traps being set.

Such as:

"Instead, people post, "Oh, not again!!!" messages to try to negate the real reasons why It needs to be changed, and personal insults and ridicule from people who, when they can't come up with sensible comments advocating leaving it alone, try to direct attention away from the factual issues at hand, and rely on "killing the messenger"...
They can't defend it, because, it's so unnecessarily unfair to the first car to leave, it's indefensible.

Responded with :>>>>>


"Bill
I really think you need a different hobby, something a bit more soothing......................maybe meditation or yoga

Or maybe JUST BUILD A FASTER CAR!!!! "
__________________

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

http://www.afunnystuff.com/forumpics/notagain.jpg



Bill, it isn't that no one can show you a reason, it's that no one can show you a reason you can agree with, or live with. There is a distinct difference.


What it is that makes you think you are the final authority on this subject, no one knows.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

it will never happen, but as bill has most eloquently explained it is UNFAIR.
before all the other fast car enhancements it was more fair, but not even !

captain jack

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

There ya go.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

A long time ago, the powers-that-be were sitting around and trying to plan a path for drag racing involving the Sportsman racers and the time delay start. The starting system was in discussion, about the same time they were discussing "how can we continuously promote the sport, feed our advertisers, and keep the fans interested". They realized advertisers made money on speed equipment and there would be no money spent on speed equipment if everybody drove a car that never evolved into a continuously faster car. And if the speed equipment industry faltered, the advertising revenue would dry up and there goes a significant amount of income earned.
And if the status quo on race cars was "slow is good enough", then the fans would be bored to death, never to return.
So NHRA ingeniously merged all these concepts into one. Slower cars could still race but there was a carrot to going faster and faster as his budget grew. The racer figured out he might have an advantage by leaving second with a faster car than the other guy. He found that not only was leaving second an advantage but his faster car reacted on the starting line differently. Word spread and others wanted faster cars. Speed equipment flourished, advertising budgets increased and fans had something to marvel at. Everybody was happy except the slow guy. Too bad. :D

Now maybe this isn't really what happened or why we have the red light rule, but it may offer some reasonable ideas to Bill and others as to why it is the way it is.

Drag racing on any level is entered into based on a rule book. When I read and understand a rule book, I build a car to win. If my perception is that the first to leave is better, I might build a slower car than if my perception were reversed. Everybody has that option when they enter racing.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff, That's about the best attempt I've seen at explaining this current situation.

In fact, if I was going to argue for the status quo, I'd do it this way :

I believe the outside world's view of drag racing to be quite simplistic.
I remember , back in my home town, the locals thought I had a pretty bad machine. I actually took it to the drags on Sunday. It was like a J/SA 63 Pontiac. I suppose they thought I had a pretty good chance of winning .That is, unless that guy Don Gartlits? showed up. Then I was screwed .
So, to the outsiders and casual fans, I suppose drag racing should be about going fast
or who goes the fastest. Therefore ,the rules should give an advantage to " who goes fast"
That's why Top Fuel pays more to win than Stock Eliminator.


But we all know ,our type of racing is a lot more complicated and sophisticated than that.
Some have suggested a way to make this one little discrepancy in the timing system more fair to all involved in handicap style racing. Some , I suppose are more "old school" where " fast is bad a**" and "money talks."
That's all fine. Someday it might be corrected anyway. I just hope nobody has a coronary over it.
Meanwhile times change. Remember, the 55 Chevy was the fastest Stocker when it was a new . Before that, the 50's Oldes and Hudsons. They're not even in the books anymore. How about he first 10 second stocker? Now how many are there?
So, what's "fast" today , won't be "fast" forever .
We're involved in electronically handicapped racing here . Being "fast" doesn't guarantee anything...and it shouldn't determine the fairness of the rules.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

This topic gets brought up at least twice a year, if not more. This is the THIRD time since January the red light rule has been mentioned.

The dead horse is no longer beaten. It's been beaten, shot, stabbed, clubbed, poisoned, maimed, butchered, drowned, blown up, and buried.

Regardless of what your opinion of the matter is, this matter should be taken up in a petition, signed by willing participants, and sent to the powers that be at NHRA, IHRA, local bracket tracks, etc. They are the ones who could actually DO something about it. Crying about it on here a few times a year will neither accomplish, nor change, a thing. Send your input in. But please stop bringing it up on here.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Thank you Mike!! LOL

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

what Mike said!!!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ed, if you do flatten Canada, will you let me race on the flats? I promise never to bring it up again. You guys made this quite fun and entertaining, maybe not at the level of the James vs Jim discussion but fun to see the quality of the difference in opinion. thanks. Claude. p.s I did get my answer

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Claude,you would have free entry,in light of the fact that you were the inspiration for the
construction in the first place.Any apartments up there for Dedman?I'm sure he could cure all of Canada's ills,given time.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

L.M.A.O.!!! That was great Jim....

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You flatter me... :)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

The last two times it was discussed on this BB, I didn't initiate the discussion . But, the fact that more people (than just myself,) can understand why this needs to be changed, and would bring it up, means there is interest in it.

I like the petition idea.

It's hard for those open-minded individuals who discuss it on here, to understand the reluctance to this change, since its implementation would just remove the current system's built-in advantage for the faster-handicapped car, over the car in the other lane. The ONLY car not benefitting from this system would be a car that NEVER leaves first.... probably an AA/S car.

Tell me the downside to this.... anyone. If you can. You can leave out the cynicism, and belligerent rhetoric; Ed's already got that covered. It's his hedge agaist revealing that equality and fair play mean nothing to him; he relies on obfuscating the issues and writing an entertaining character assassination, with NO facts in it, to somehow retain his relevance on this BB (it doesn't work, but don't tell him... I enjoy the entertainment aspect,,,,) :)

Just tell me the downside of it; why it's a bad idea, realizing that when a rule (such as the first red light rule) condones a system that puts ANY car at a disadvantage, it's a bad rule and needs to be fixed.