Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Wow, this topic has certainly taken an interesting turn! I thought we all raced because we enjoyed it, just at different levels.

I'm guessing that most (but definitely not ALL) of us, if we could afford it, would build a newer, faster car. Do you think that people in 1955 said "those racer's with their new Chevy small-blocks sure have an unfair advantage"!?! I'll bet the guy's with the Oldsmobile's and Hudson's did!

I have the utmost respect for anyone who competes at the national level in Stock and Super Stock! It takes a great amount of work to get any combination to "work", some more than others, some less!

There are as many reason's to race, or not to race, as there are racer's! Get out and have some fun, that's what I'm doing, just at a level I'm comfortable with as a newly-retired pensioner on a limited income!

Woopie! :D


Lew
(18 days and counting!)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Actually, Alan, that was a tongue-in-cheek statement of mine to lament that maybe racing has become more ego-driven than ever before. Faster cars can make one feel more important. I have no criticism for anyone who appreciates what they race and doesn't use their et (or paint job or money they spend, etc. etc.) to make themselves feel more important than they really are. As far as I know, the path to the winners circle is pretty level for everybody. I have raced 14 second stockers, 13 second stockers, 12 second stockers, an 11 second stocker, a 10 second stocker, a 10 second modified production car and a 9 second super stocker. I put them all in the winners circle. The slower cars were just a challenging, just as satisfying and a whole lot less work and money. I would hate for those people to be pushed out or forgotten.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

That's one reason I enjoy racing a "slow/Odd ball" combo.Imagine the conversation when one of the high buck,stacker trailer,renegade guys gets home and the missus says "How did you do this weekend?" and you say "I lost to a 13 second gremlin".And you could cut the silence with a knife.:>):>):>)

In the scheme of things we're all a bunch of schleps spending money doing what we think
we enjoy.Some of us take it wayyyyy to seriously.Unless you're doing it for a paycheck. Then you're really in need of a reality check.
The winners are the guys who supply the tools (cars,parts,etc) to perpetuate this madness.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

X 2 on that !

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Ed, cut the crap. Nothing like that was said (by me!) or assumed. Alan let his opinion be known and I responded with an opinion.
I have a great deal of respect for anyone who goes out and constantly tries to find "that extra hundredth" regardless of what it is. I believe that Alan (and you too for that matter) is one of a handfull of incredibly smart people that will take the time to post on here and help others with their problems.
Bottom line, I wish that Alan hadn't voiced his opinion and that I hadn't responded to it.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Bill,you're such a modest little fuzz ball.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Well My V/SA has gone to a M/SA. 11.90s are much funner than 14.00s. :-)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Yes Mark that would allow me to include headers (once I find some that I can afford). So far, I've only heard of one place that would help me in that regard, and they wanted $1grand, and my car for a week...that was 4yrs ago, they're probably more now? But it would definitely include a new cam with some duration to it.... :)

I wish I had some "new headers on the car"! That's funny Mark! :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Wow, again something I agree with you on Ed! The Hawk couldn't have said it better if he tried, and props to you too Billy, and Owen as well!!!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

X2 Dwight, but sadly it seems to be heading that way (especially with the more well known NHRA), which is why I've been pushing the (now more sportsman friendly), IHRA's apparent western migration...competition is becoming bliss...don't believe me, ask Sheldon Gecker, Mark Faul, and now Les Norton!!!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Point well made Jack, however if you're running that close to the index, and all of the sudden eliminations come with a (lets say) 10mph headwind, along with crappy air, suddenly you're either at or slower than your index, and thus your meager cushion of competitiveness is gone...advantage to all cars better than .4 under their indexes. :(

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Terry, I don't know if anyone else has chimed in on your question, but no you don't need to run .5 under to qualify & run eliminations. However, you did need to run .5 or more under your index to earn a class win...that is prior to this years enhancement for singles to have to race other singles (based on tranny types), in both Stock and Super Stock. In that case it's most likely the swiftest of the singles that'll win (reaction times being equal)! Sorry but class pays my car $100 bucks or maybe less now, so it's hardly worth it for me anymore, because nearly all of the contingency postings I enjoyed for class back in '99 are gone now, so it's pointless to me to care about class eliminations...the only good I see is that it's a pre-race experience to prepare me for regular racing conditions the next day!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Thanks Lane, that's what I thought it was too, and with my best run in the summer months (with heat and headwinds being intangibles there), being that 16.664 I ran in the 3rd rnd of the '06 Mile High's, I now know it would be pointless for me to enter that race again unless/until I can free up $5k to have headers custom made for my car, and get my engine redone with a better durationed cam....it's all about the money, or lack thereof... :(

More reason for me to be glad for RMR, & SIR embracing the IHRA, since at 4400ft, I was .35 under in not-so-ideal weather conditions, and that was even with their indexes using the Super Comp/Gas/Street correction factor...now that's something to :) about!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

If class wins are not important to you why do you race in a performanced based class? Wouldn't it be better not to have to worry about how far under you can run and all the work and money it takes to get faster within the rules and just stay with bracket racing? Why put yourself through it?

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Harry, it seems that a lot of us have taken that "Option B " lately.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Good question Harry, but I have some good answers to/for you:

1. The only other alternative for a car that runs in the 15-16sec. zone is the sportsman bracket class, and only at the divisional finals does the pay out seem worthwhile...many tracks in Colorado, and even the ones here in Az., would pay $250 or less to the winner of that class as opposed to racing for over $1k in a national/divisional/stock or super stock combo race....just like chum in the ocean attracts sharks, money (and the chance at it plus the fame that goes with it), attracts me!

2. The prestige of racing in front of large groups of people is something else I enjoy, because the stage is a lot bigger than in bracket racing, and after most of the past 36yrs of my being in this sport, that's what I want....

3. I wish to do something no one has done since Mark back in '86, and the guy in '85 divisionally...win a national event, and then set my sights on being the first to repeat that feat, with a front wheel drive car. I like the challenge of doing something that no one has yet done this century, nor has anyone else done since Mark's awesome feat!

Yes if I wanted to I could scrap the fuel injection system, and have my engine built to use a carburetor (Holley), and make the car run 13's (so I could run Pro ET), but to only race for sportsmans meager payouts, and w/o the glamour of running in front of larger groups of fans is something I don't wish to do anymore (exceptions being at Nitro Jam races, where those bracket racers get to race for larger payouts, and in front of lots of fans)! Don't get me wrong Harry, I would like racing for class (for the nearly real racing conditions), however class doesn't pay any money anymore (for products I'm able to use), to give me reason to give a hoot about it...bring back the contingencies of '99, and I'd be more excited about it (oh and return the class runnoffs to how they were prior to this year)!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

I did notice Randall Campball at Bristol made it down to the semi finals in his N/SA, he was dialed at 14.05. So much for the lower class cars, or trucks, being a disavantage. The 4 second spot against Keith Lynch was interesting to watch and had a lot of folks in the stands on their feet watching the finish line.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Randall Campbell ran in R/SA. (N/SA index is 13.00)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Well there's a scientific statistical analysis for ya.... with a sample size of one. :rolleyes: That's what is referred to as an outlier. :p (Full disclosure: I have been trounced by Randall before! LOL Dude can drive!)

There are a large variety of reasons why certain combinations have slowly disappeared over the years. Among those are regulations that haven't forced these cars out, but have served as a nudge here and a nudge there. There's also been a sea change shift in the types of drivers participating in the classes, or the mindset of existing competitors. There's no one thing that covers everyone's individual choices, but taken as a whole, they have had a cumulative effect over the years.

$.02,

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Michael - Regulations ? I don't see it .My thoughts are they are dwindling because mostly they are grass roots racers who simply can't afford to keep up in these hard economic times .I just don't see the nudges .......

Frankly they are great for our sport - some fans love to root for the slow - lumbering cars - yet others like the big guns .Nothing better than to see an R/SA being chased by a 9 second late model or even an early Hemi or God forbid - a '69 Camaro .Doesn't matter which you want to win - it's always a great race ! ! !

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Two easy examples: The elimination of deep staging and the consolidation of FWD classes.

(Unrelated) Do you still have your Ventura?

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Gary -

You have zeroed in on the very good points that need to be restated ever so often so racers can mulch that stuff around in their reasoning brains. Though not all the time, often a very competitive low class car can be built and maintained for far less $ than a competitive high class car. That is not a hard and fast rule, but it is possible, as executed very well by some of the people who have posted on this thread. That should bear enough hope within it to give some people reason to not give up. There are associated challenges mechanically and emotionally that go with the territory of the slower classes that need to be faced, but I doubt if those challenges are as daunting as facing a competitive field in those faster classes that are highly refined, well financed, well supported in the performance industry, and the continuing target of new factory releases that are engineered and politicked to be dominant.

Some of the reasons that NHRA Sportsman drag racing (Stock Eliminator especially) has been so unique in the field of motor sports is that it is possible for participants to share the stage and the competitive arena with the highest performing examples of the sport in a nationally competitive arena with an entry that can be personally owned and created by commonly affordable incomes. You can race against the best of the best (within your unique little niche) in front of a huge audience on a nationally promoted level and claim a victory. The glory associated with that needs to be fully recognized, heralded and defended with extreme enthusiasm. It's similar to the person winning an Olympic medal for table tennis (ping pong). While that winner may not get the same ink and the public attention of the downhill skier or the 100 meter sprinter, that gold medal is exactly the same as his more illustrious competitor.

Those racers who fight for performance and victory in those slower classes have a grit and glory that is not known in the places where the rewards of money and public approval are abundant. All Stock Eliminator competitors know that feeling of satisfaction to some extent because the category as a whole is somewhat unrewarded. But those in the 13 or 14 second or slower classes know it even more fully. I personally do not ever what to see that go away and I applaud and encourage ever one of those people who have the courage to fight there.

My nickel soapbox.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Wow! Dwight, that speech deserves a big "Attaboy".

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

i second that :"atta boy"

just not the same anymore, all about money not talent
class wins and records mean absolutely nothing anymore

jack

and why would i want to go to that god forsaken, slow ***, billy goat mountainside track ?

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Michael - You became a World Champion without deep staging so is it needed ? And the FWD class elimination was because there were just too many classes - don't you agree ?

As for my Ventura - I sold it at a time when I just owned too many cars and my health was in the toilet .A stupid move on my part - sure wish I had it back ....................

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Jack, some of the nudges are:
1. eliminating running all classes at all national events. In the past if there were two or three fairly close national events, you could choose the one that best fit your schedule or needs.
2. Reducing the index's by .3. Now many cars that could barely run their index can't make the break especially if the weather doesn't cooperate.
3. Eliminating the attitude factors making it even more difficult to run under the index.
4. Increasing entry fees in a down ecomony.
5. Changing the AHPS so there is no place where you can run fast without receiving HP. It's taking the fun out of racing for many racers.
6. Fewer and fewer tracks which causes longer drives at higher gas prices.
Other factors have been stated and I am sure that other factors have not been pointed out.
The reason that race attendance is down is not one big factor even considering the factory cars. It's a bunch of little things done by people who don't understand what motivates the average sportsman racer. Many things are out of NHRA's control but this considered they must first make the right decisions about the things that are under their control.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Jack, the "Regulations are there and you're seeing them. You're just not understanding the repercussions of them (just like the tech dept.) on the "non hi performance" based combos.
Just some easy to explain new regs., replacement heads, carbs, transmissions, ceramic lifters, non stock valvesprings and valve train. All of these things don't help a "restricted" engine combo one bit. My Pontiac came with a metric trans in it to my advantage, now any GM gains my advantage with no benefit to me. I don't get a replacement aluminium head or aftermarket carb, no benefit. Exotic aftermarket valvetrain parts don't help me either as my engines don't want to RPM any more than they do now.
Now before you go getting all defensive please understand, I know that there are benefits to the combos that I run and I'm not complaining about the new regs.(rules) I'm just stating in fact that they are (intentionally or not) increasing the performance gap between the upper and lower class combos. (lower class being a relative term)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

...with a low 11-sec crate motor car each time, neither of which qualifies as a lower class car. We've spent a great deal of time on the phone discussing reaction times, even in regards to a fast car like yours. How many people do you think could hit the tree, both good and consistent, in a lower classed car without deep staging? There aren't too many people out there wired like Billy Nees (insert your own joke here).

The elimination of deep staging wasn't a stroke of the pen that eliminated slow cars and instituted factory race cars overnight. It was a nudge that was just one contribution to a chain of events, in my opinion. It wasn't long after deep staging was eliminated that you started to see a number of drivers move from lower class cars to faster cars. (always exceptions of course, like Lang) Not saying it's right or wrong, but it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy: The more people that chose to run fast cars, the more people felt like they needed fast cars to compete. Obviously, each individual has their own reasons for building a given car, but it seems that the many people are led to the same conclusion. There has been a definite change in the general makeup of the field since I started racing.

Yes and no. I think there are too many classes as a whole, but that's another discussion that has already been debated and is currently dead on arrival. Both then and now, there are reasonable ways to handle consolidation of classes. Going from 16 classes to 5 (and the way in which it was implemented) was overkill. The irony is that many people feel it was ok for the FWD cars, but it's fought against strongly when the same idea is applied to other cars. There was a decent number of FWD cars out there when I got started. Where are they now? Is it reasonable for a car to be 225# heavy for one class and 400# light for the next? Is it reasonable for a car that could run -1.000 under the old format now run -.30 under? Would either of these examples be tolerated for a B/SA combination?

Was there a downside to "too many" FWD classes before outside of Class singles? While it is after the fact, today's Class Eliminations structure eliminates that issue. What would the effect of a more reasonable class structure be today? Does it help or hurt the sport or class? 'Who cares about FWD cars anyway? It's just a couple of cars.' A couple of cars here and a couple of cars there, gone (for a multitude of different reason), and you wonder why we have discussions about car counts...

The horse may have already left the barn. The level of competition today and the cumulative years of strategic knowledge (two things intertwined) are ultimately going to lead the majority of people to build faster cars. Does it help or hurt the sport when the Billy Nees's of the sport are gone? The only thing driving cars back down into lower (more like mid-range) classes right now, in my opinion, is the prospect of numerous heads-up runs in the growing ranks of the upper classes.

$.02,

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Richard - Lets try this one item at a time
1) - There are just not enough cars to run class at every national event
2)The .3 reduction was for everyone- not just the lower class cars .
3)Again the factors are for everyone
4)So you want more money with lesser entry fees - how will that work ?
5)You want it both ways - on one hand you say you can't run fast without the factors and on the other you want to run fast without penalty .
6)Fewer tracks and gas prices affect everyone .

And yes , the NHRA ( and any other sanctioning body ) must make wise decisions but they must be good for everyone including them .

Somehow even with writing this there are those who have their own agenda and I feel like I'm pissing in the wind ............pretty strong words even from me !

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

OK, Jack by the numbers.
1. When I say all classes, I am talking about all Super classes, Super Stock, Stock, etc.
2. Yes, the reduction affected everyone. There are cars in all classes that cannot run the index now that they have been reduced. All I am saying is that reduces the number of racers that can compete. Why would NHRA want to make a change that reduces participation?
3. I agree.
4. I didn't mention more money. Just not raising entry fees.
5. I can run plenty fast enough to run with the new index's. I was pointing out that this is another way that NHRA is reducing participation.
6.Yes
My point was not only aimed at the lower class cars even though this thread is. After the comment about how nhra is nudging more and more racers out of racing, I was pointing out how they are nudging out racers from many areas.
BTY Jack, I don't have a problem with you personally. In the past I supported NHRA every way that I could as you are doing. Have fun, keep racing as long as your finances and health allow. I just wanted to point out how NHRA is hurting itself and many racers with it's decisions.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

IMO, I think the reason you are seeing less and less of these cars is not because of index or entry fees, but because the slower cars are just really hard to win in. These cars are sensitive to wind, DA, humidity etc etc. Plus it is really hard to be consistent on the tree and drive the finish line while 90% of the field has 30+ mph on you! A national event is a big stage with great recognition when you win one, and if you are a competitor that is the goal every time you enter one!!! Racers now are utilizing the best tools to accomplish this feat, and according to statistics having that slow of a S/SS'er your chances of success are not very high. I'm not saying it is impossible, just being real. Stock/Super Stock isnt what it was 15 years ago thanks to $$$ and technology. No disrespect to anyone who has a slower class car, because I give you massive credit for doing it. How hard is it to judge a AA-D/SA in a 14 second car??? Very!!! I hope to see a front wheel win a national again, just so that driver can say he is one of only two people to win a national event in NHRA. I hope I didn't anger anyone, just wanted to share .02

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

x2 Jack, as I sure loved that even though the great Scotty Richardson won the Stock World Title in the NHRA (back in the mid-90's, he certainly didn't accomplish that at the expense of one Lane "The Hawk" Weber, and his 15-16sec Buick Skyhawk...that was a fun race to watch!!! WAY TO GO HAWK!!! :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

True very true on all points Stang Bang, which is my motivation for being out there trying to accomplish what will be a monumental feat (when it happens)! I used to be good at racing cars that ran 10-14sec. (when my cars ran 18-22sec.), and I will be that way again (with more seat time, via bracket/class racing)....I mainly need to be a driver more like Jody Lang, but with my car. Somebodies going to do it, and I hope that somebody's me!

No anger here, just more reason to be motivated to get my butt out to the track to do more racing, because 85% + of all of the races I lost were because of poor decision making on my part, or my subpar driving...not the car!

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

x2 on your class win comments Jack (especially since the class win contingency postings I can claim have essentially diminished), and thanks to NHRA's index enhancements, I'm no longer able to run .5 or more under the index. :(

Dwight, I'll give you kudos for your remarks too, but I have greater motivation than even you mentioned:

It will give me great satisfaction to see a car line (the Chevy Cavalier) that was unjustly belittled by Consumer Reports (as were all American small cars), plus Car & Driver magazines, doing something that their more beloved Honda Civics, Acura Integra's, and other imports of their ilk have yet to even try! My car was built by the great people of Janesville, Wisconsin...people like all of you reading this. I believe in you guys/gals, and when I see all of these imports around me, when millions of Americans are unemployed because of "MADE IN THE USA" not seeming to matter on our roads/highways like it used to, not only am I glad to see the DP's and the CJ's being out here and quickly competitive (again kudos to Les Norton, for his SLC Nitro Jam win last week!), but I like it even more when fwd cars like mine, Charles Blossom's, Randy Hyman's, Michael Beard's, and all others who (for whatever reason) still race their fwd vehicles. For that matter, I root for anyone who's continuing to race a 14sec or slower stocker, because the challenges may be greater, but the satisfaction of accomplishing something that few have dared to try is greater too...kind of like the US MARINES...The Few, The Proud, The Slower Roller Dragracers! :)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Some things to consider about the "harder to win with a slower car" and "more sensitive to . . . " observations: First, in this era of technology (weather stations, ET predicting software, etc.), there is the possibility of better tools to help with the dialing of those cars. It may be that the current products have some built in limitations that make them not as applicable as they could be, but the possibility for more accurate analysis is available. Secondly, there are a gazillion late model high-tech small engined cars out there that aren't in the classification guide. Now NHRA is not going to voluntarily put out the effort to get them listed, but somebody could do all the legwork. Granted most are FWD, but NHRA could also respond to increased participation with expanding the coverage of those classes again. The fields are ripe for a new definition of "Jr Stock". Considering the potential of some of those combinations, the ability to have a car with little modification that would be competitive is certainly possible. Thirdly, if half the effort had been put into the accumulation of knowledge and technique of racing slower, mostly environment-sensitive cars as has been put into racing big power cars, the ability to step into a competitive and winning slower car would be easier and more attractive. That can be overcome and is a mission for somebody.

Another nickel on the soapbox.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

100% Correct ..... look at me at E-Town...picked up.09 from somwhere(think the wind laid down a lot on the run)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Looking at first round of Stock qualifying at Norwalk, 85% were G and faster.

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

And realistically, only 3 cars 12-sec and slower. (Veach and Pires will obviously go faster)

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

I think, in a nut shell that the upper classes are filled with people who can afford it. The middle by people who are doing what they can to be as fast as they can. The lower classes by low buck or entry level people. I realise this is a generalisation, but in most cases it fits.
That being said, I really enjoy slower/oddball/different combo's, moreso than the A-E/S.
I enjoy watching the big wheelstands from the older ponycars/musclecars, but other than that my heart is with the R or T and down Stockers.

So why is there less slower cars? Sure they might be less competetive or less likely to win, but that has always been the case. Less performance parts? Sure but again that's not new. So what is it? I would say the upper classes can still afford it, period. The middle classes are running less but can still scrape by with less update/upgrades. The lower classes, who could only scrape together the bucks to run when they can with what they can, just can't afford it in these times.
Any "enhancement" that cost $$$ can be absorbed by the big bucks guys (who coincidentily are running upper classes) but ask a lower class guy? Then it's "man I have to find another $1000 somewhere so I'll be legal again".

Maybe I'm just cheap, but I love the underdogs/lower classes.
(Was digging around in some old boxes of mags recently and found the Stock/Superstock mag with Steve Polhills interview with the Escort, excellent!)

(Oh and for the record, yes I'm tired of seeing 69 camaro's.) LOL

Re: Where are the lower class cars?
 

Here is another observation. When you consider the cost of building a full high tech car, there is little difference in the cost of building a 4-bbl V8 of any variety. What I mean is, if you are building a small block Chevy, for example, there is little difference to build a 305 smogger as it is to build a top of the line high performance version. The cost of the pistons, rods, valve train, heads, machine work, suspension, roll bar/cage, transmission, accessories, trick parts, etc. etc. is the same for the 305 that runs high elevens as it is for a ten second combination. The same for about any manufacturer. So why spend all that time and money on a mid to high eleven second car when you can go tens for the same $$? The are anomalies to those characteristics, but I would dare say that Wade Owens' 283 M/SA cost just as much as a competitive C or D car. It's not until you get away from some of the basic standard 4-bbl V8 costs that things change dramatically. Now I know that an FE Ford or a Hemi costs more than a small block Chevy, but as a rule you will have some basic core costs that are the same. That is a major reason why more faster cars are built.