Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

I believe I said engines not transmissions or rearends. There is nothing done to these cars at the factory that you couldn't do to a regular show room model for stock class. It's all about the factor. What about all the body in white cars? They aren't strret legal or generally available to everyone.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Exactly my point.You can't/couldn't drive one out of ther showroom.Putting a 12 bolt in place of a 10 boltis a long ways away from putting a fabricated rear housing under one of the early DP cars.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Can you go buy a new Drag Pack Challenger, or Cobra Jet Mustang, drive it to the local DMV, have it inspected, buy license plates, and drive it on the street, in every state in the union? Or even excluding California.

That's why they do not belong in Stock Eliminator. You could go buy a 68 428 Super Cobra Jet Mustang and legally drive it. Or a 440 Six Pack 'Cuda. Or a 396 or 427 Camaro, Chevelle, or Impala.

The entire basis of Stock Eliminator was that you could buy the exact same car at the dealership and drive it on the street legally. At least it was, for about 40 years.

The new factory race cars are not even close to street legal, even by the loosest standards.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

We're not talking about street legality here, VINs ,no VINS, original cost , or other diversions.
None of that stuff has been required in Stock Eliminator for at least 40 years,

What we're talking about is factory wringers..Those being cars not available to the general public for legal use on the highway.
No provisions for modern emission controls, no provisions for lock up torque converters, minimal or no modern crash protection devices ,high compression ratios that would never be certified for highway use....
In other words, Factory Experimental cars, not Stock Eliminator cars in the traditional sense.

Why this is so hard to understand for some, is beyond me.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Chassis1, I can guarantee that everyone of us started out looking through the fence at the fast and loud cars going down the track before we became racers, then we decided to try it with our street cars and progressed from there. We are not whining, we are stating facts. Dodge and Ford offered ready built racers to people that had a spare $100,000.00 laying around and the NHRA let them tun in Stock thus virtually eliminating all the existing cars in classes E - AA.

In the late '60's Mopar and Ford did the same thing with the race Hemi's and the Thunderbolts and the NHRA immediately put them into SUPER STOCK or FX because they were ready built race cars and not available for street driving.

The question is: Why didn't the NHRA do the same with these new cars ?

Yes, you can dig into you're Max Wedge and sqeeze some more HP but we've been doing that for 45 years and there is nothing left to squeeze and the same goes for the other class cars. Alan crews a '69 427 Camaro, do you think there is almost a second left to squeeze in order to compete with the new cars.....I doubt it.

As for new blood coming into Stock eliminator, most of this new generation can't afford to buy a car to drive much less a $100,000.00 race car and all the support stuff to go with it.

The point is these cars belong in SS or FX rather than Stock because they NEVER were stock!

JimR

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Not to mention these cars were put on a Jenny Craig diet that would have made Haystacks Calhoun look like Twiggy.(Wow does that make me show my age).

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

I can understand about the not street legal crap. OK. But whats with lockup converter, crash protection, emission control? If you run your stocker with all this crap on it you are missing the boat. As far as compression ratios go I'm sure there are no laws regulating that. As far as the street legal deal goes I'm sure I could get one of those licenced as an assembled vehicle where I live.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

It's got nothing to do with what you are able to remove by the rulebook.

If you don't get it by now, I don't know what else to say..
Anybody else?

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

With the higher compression ratio's the manufacturers couldnt get the engines to pass smog certs. in most cases. Worse fact is the "Horse Pizz" they call gas and sell for the street would knock the bearings out of them or at least break the ring lands out of them, Not enough octane. Its not legal to run the $12 a gal. race fuel in most areas on the street but some I know still do it because of the lead content. Just saying.
I know......same deal for most pre 1971 engines such as a 427 69 Camaro.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Very well said, Mark.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Up until 2008, cars eligible for Stock Eliminator had to have all the required emissions and safety equipment on them that was required for the date of manufacture. They also had to be produced and sold to the general public with the same drivetrain racers used for competition. It made Stock Eliminator what it is, the class for real production street cars as produced and sold to the general public for street use to be raced in.

A body in white is nothing but a new production body that failed QC inspection. It merely prevents a racer from having to buy a car, take it apart, and throw away or sell what he doesn't use. A body in white can be used to build a race car that uses a production line assembled sold to the general public for street use drivetrain. The "body in white" argument doesn't hold water.


Yeah, that's cool, you can get an "assembled vehicle" title and VIN for a race car. So, can I go build a new Camaro, based on a body in white, with a full race LSx engine and a Liberty 5 speed, get an "assembled vehicle" title and VIN and race it in Stock Eliminator? See the problem there? Once you open that door, anything can walk in. They opened Pandora's Box. New factory cars can be created every year with a stroke of a pen. The idea is not sustainable, it will kill the class, never mind the fact that allowing them in changes it from Stock Eliminator to Factory FX Eliminator.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

and .001 of lift change or .001 difference in head gasket and presto change-o you have a new, fresh, unmolested HP rating

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Only old guys know who Haystacks Calhoun was.....or Twiggy for that matter....

It's 2011 not 1971

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

1969 we entered a 1969 Boss 302 at the US National it a F/S car NHRA Reratedit to 330 horese power how things have changed!!!

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Hey. Who you callin "old"?

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Me......and anyone who remembers Haystacks Calhoun and Twiggy.....



P.S. What did Haystacks wear around his neck?

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

There you go Doc:

Maybe the Barton's could use him for security this weekend.:>):>):>):>)

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Rich,

Haystacks wore a chain with a horse shoe attached to it. Yeah, I'm old too! I don't care though.

Mike Bassin

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Mike I only care when someone calls ME an Old FxxK........and that happened just a few weeks ago.

A "Nice" young lady with her young daughter in her car and she did not like the way I was WALKING down her street and getting in her way........I was at fault for not paying attention...but I thought Old FXXK was a little harsh.......She actually backed up to get in my face and this led to a little confrontation........She lives maybe 100-200 yards from me....A side road barely big enough to be called a road....

I don't think of myself as old but I get reminded of my age all the time......It gets annoying.....

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

I couldnt post on here what I would have said to her.....LOL.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

They do say that youth is wasted on the young!:D

Lew

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Thats strange, I dont recall ever seeing a stocker before 2008 with catalytic converters and smog pumps or working air bags for that matter? These cars aint street cars, so that argument doesnt hold much water. Hell when they wanted you guys to run mufflers a few years back there was all kinda stink raised about that. Since they are so stock why was that a big deal? Probably because we dont like change,and face it that is human nature.

Look at it like this: what if NHRA class racing had been around since the 1920's and in the 1960's all these muscle cars were coming out and had to race against model T's. The guys with the model T's raise hell about it because they are racing cars that have been around for 40-50 years and think that is the way it will always be. Sounds kinda silly dont it, but that is what is happening now just move forward 45+ years from the 60's.

Like I said I like the old cars. But I am not so crazy to believe things dont change. That nova that is in my avatar I have raced for years in true 10.5 heads up racing. I built a stock suspension 2000 mustang last year because it was more competitive under the rules I race under. Did I like having to do it NO, but I realized i couldnt hold back progress of the class and IF I wanted to be competitive I had to change with the times and the class. Now sure in class racing the easy answer is have NHRA take the pencil and invent a new class for the new cars. IMO that is the wrong thing to do to appeal to more fans. It is aleady confusing enough for the average spectator to follow.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

That explains why you don't know what you are talking about here.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

IF NHRA set the HP factors anywhere close to what they should be then NHRA would NOT have to invent or put them in a new or seperate class. What is it that you do not understand about stock and S/S class racing?

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

What exactly does it explain? please do inform me.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Thanks for the offer to explain, but I think I have a pretty fair understanding of class racing. I have been around it most of my life and been involved inseveral aspects of it from making passes in cars to helping in the tear down barn, i have been around. I geuss because I dont doi it I cant discuss or even begin to understand it huh?

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

you know nathan, niether the starter of this thread, or any of the dozen or so "respected" competitors in this field owe you an explanation of thier posts or observations. we all know how the class of stock eliminator has been raped by NHRA , most recently in thier efforts to obtain sponsorship $$$ from the manufacturers. therefore most of us who were part of the class when it meant something to make a car just like everyone else could buy perform to the limits set by RULES have had enough. winning class at indy once the ultimate goal in every stock racers dream is now an absurd joke.

so nathan in my opinion younger guys like you, should build a new DP or CJ and take my place in the dog and pony show you so much seem to admire.

me and my 16 time class champion car will just stay at home and let you support the new NHRA ... hope you have a good job, and good luck unless your on the "INSIDE" with the factories or a dealer.

captain jack

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

I wasn't going to add my $.02 to this discussion, because I thought everyone understood what the problem here was, but I guess I was wrong......

What Alan is saying is that prior to 2008, all vehicles that were allowed to run in Stock Eliminator were manufactured for and available to the general public, through a dealer network, and register-able and street legal. In other words if it wasn't showroom available, it wasn't legal for Stock! That changed when the NHRA allowed Ford and Chrysler to certify the CJ's and DP's.

And if I raced a Model T and a musclecar with a bogus HP rating came along, I probably would have been just as disappointed as most of us are now.

The status quo in Stock Class has been twisted in favor of the newer vehicles. The only new cars certified to run are the "specials" available to a chosen few. You can't go to your local dealer and buy a car off the showroom and race it in Stock Class, no matter how much work you do, with the exception of the Camaro, and how many of them have we seen?

Not all that hard to understand, really. No need to get upset. Fix the inequitable HP ratings if you can, or give the new cars a class to race themselves if you can't!

Thanks for listening!

Lew

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

You really are lost as last year's Easter eggs. You don't race Stock Eliminator, and you don't have the slightest idea what Stock Eliminator is all about.

The new cars were never street legal cars, ever, in any shape, form, or fashion. NHRA Stock Eliminator required the original car the combination was based on to be street legal, all the way up until 2008.

Every car we've raced in Stock Eliminator and Super Stock started as a real street legal car as produced by the factory for street use. A 69 Camaro 427/425, a 69 Camaro 350/255, a 69 Camaro 396/375, and a 94 Camaro 350/275. THAT is what Stock Eliminator is all about. If you cannot grasp that concept, you will never understand Stock Eliminator.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Because you have no idea what Stock Eliminator is all about. You race 10.5, that is nothing even remotely similar to Stock Eliminator.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

I don't want to jump on anyone but I totally agree with Alan. As such I honestly believe that the new factory drag cars must be put in Super Stock if we are to respect the system as it exists.

That said, there seems to be plenty of potential to race the new Mustangs, Challengers, (and Camaros) in Stock as presented from the showroom. Even that will be a challenge to the rule makers. I do not understand the resistance to creating new classes, even as a stop gap measure. It seemed to work out okay for the FI deal. Why can't we have our cake and eat it too?

Chris Barnes
Wagons of Steel
Stock 6621

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

In my humble opinion, there is ssooo much wrong with Stock and Super Stock racing today, that it is almost beyond fixing !!!
They need to, once again, give it some track and fan appeal. They need less classes instead of more. Less classes with about 15 or 20 cars in each class at the national events - something for the fans to get pumped about - then NHRA will once again get pumped about it.
To do this they need to get the hp ratings straight, for old and new cars, so they can both compete.......and they need to get the indexs right so only the very best cars can run under, The fans don't want to see, and don't understand, how a guy in a given class can win eliminator when he can run .10 under, when there are other similarly classed cars that can run .90 under, because of the dial under and breakout rules.
We don't want to make S and S/S look like Super Gas and Super Comp , do we???? If you love these cars, you don't !!!
Get the hp ratings much, much closer and fairer and reduce the class indexs so that very few (only the best) can run under. Then fairly make fewer classes There will be more cars in each class and more all-out racing. The fans will love it, the racers who can still compete will love it/ those who can't, won't like it but can go bracket racing in S/G or whatever. Some will leave the ranks and some will return to the ranks because they will be RACING again.
Right now, the only people who like these classses are those who run in it and their friends. The fans don't, and NHRA thinks of it as a "filler" - no more/ no less .... an annoyance, at best.
I guess I have a lot to say after seeing this from the days of the early 60s through today. My opinions won't make everyone happy; but if you're like me you want to line up against cars of equal potential, race hard and all-out, and if you get there first - you win; and if you lose, you go home and work harder, not just change your dial under !!!

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

You are exactly right in my opinion Mr. Banana. In fact, reading your post fills my eyes with a few tears. I also think the sport is beyond repair..........

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Hey Neil; I knew I could count on you. Not too many of us left !!
How are you doing out there in "bandido land"? Stay safe and say hello to Marilyn for me. I've heard from Paul Dilcher on here and just recently Tony Janes. How did Tony know about Glen Campbell Chev. ? I thought he was a CA boy.
I did the motorcycle ride out rte 66 last June but never made it to Phoenix area. By the time I got to Santa Monica, after riding to Chicago from FL and then Chi. to Santa Monica, I was whipped, so I put the Harley on a truck and flew home. We went through the Okla. City floods and a windstorm in NM, among other things - not bad for someone looking at his 70th B-Day next month. I am now in Wake Forest, NC, closer to my son and grandson.
Would love to meet up with you again and talk about our wonderful trip across the country in 1971 or 1972 with Dean Becker !!!

I'm expecting some "flak" from my previous post from those too young to see what it was like in the early to mid 60s. I remember the first time I was told I "broke out" (at the preNationals meet in Muncie, IN, driiving the '57 Bad Banana). "Broke out what", I said. "You went too fast", they said. "Well, excuuusssee me", I said !!! - "isn't this a race???" At that time you apparently couldn't go more than .20 under the National Record.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

to continue about my first breakout (1964 in Muncie). We had thought we had just won Stock Eliminator over a famous Buick stocker "Big Daddy" or "Daddy" something that I had seen in national Dragster; and Ted Hartman , who owned the Bad Banana was furious (us small town Western New Yorkers had not yet heard of "Brake-outs"); and I had to physically restrain him as he wanted to drive the Bad banana INTO the timing tower.
Being a young college kid at the time, and always hungry, I had made a deal with Ted that every time I ran under the record, I got a Peanut Butter sandwich - so I was happy !!!!
another story here: We didn't have line-locs yet so Ted had put an old hand brake arm, mounter under the steering wheel with a rod down to the brake pedal, so I could use the gas and clutch and, also, hold the car on the line - we, also, had a convex mirror way up on ther front fender so I could see the tire and the staging line.
With the indexs where they are now let's fly into Pomona, get a rental car that fits a good low class, put tires on it and go racing--- and then feel cheated if somone else had an advantage !!!!!
OK, I'll be quiet now !!!

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Sure love your stories and a great fun post!

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

Same here, keep them coming...

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

I grasp exactly what you are saying, but read what you typed. Up until 2008...... It is 2011 the game has changed. Now the good thing about it is if/when NHRA sees it your way they will take the magic pencil and make new classes for the cars that some of you have come to loathe, and at that point all you guys will have to find something else to whine about. I grasp everything you said about the way stock was, but I also grasp that it has changed right or wrong.

Re: Back from Indy-what's happened to Stock Eliminator??
 

No flak here I agree with you a 100% ran s/ss from the 70s-90s have fewer classes and most importent put a person like Farmer in charge he would have these new cars already in the right class . Then let the cream come to the top, this may put a brain behind the wheel not just a shoe.






















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