What is it about guys names ED anyway....?

Count the tree - YOU BET. and if you are a musician, you are gonna get damned good. PERIOD.

If you are tone deaf, counting may not be for you...

Still no match for the Junk that they are trying so very hart to foise off on the entire field. Why on earth can't bracket racers be bracket racers and stock eliminator racers be stock eliminator racers? Like the old thing in Psych 101 regarding the low self esteem of women and saying it was due to penis envy... Do class racers envy bracket racers so much that they have to devise pseudo delay devices (or should I say penises) to feel up to the task.

I'm almost sorry we left bracket racing and entered into the field of "skilled" racing only to find out it is being compromised and is rapidly becomming what we tried to hard to escape. Born too late I guess - or is that "re-born" too late.

Yeah, come back at me with the good will always be good and the "you're just jealous" of those who are better than you. Well, that may be fairly, though not completely, accurate. Question is WHO IS USING WHAT ? AND DO YOU KNOW BEYOND A DOUBT THAT THE ANSWER YOU GIVE IS 100 PERCENT true.

I guess we will keep doing this as long as we can find a way to have fun. I imagine that setting records will have to be our outlet for the time being. That is until we decide to sell the stocker and just go to the cabin and relax.

Peace, Rev. Mopar (David Koopman)

Robert, they will never get it. Its just not worth trying to teach them anything.

tgriffith, if I knew what the F*** you where trying to say, I might be able to give you an answer. Lets start with spelling, then try to write (not rite) in a form of english we all could understand.

I think I am giving some of these racers to much credit when I call them stupid.

David, do everyone a favor and sell the stocker, the class has changed, like it or not.

Ed Brice

Thank you Koop. (what'd you say?)

Maybe it's time to ask Len or Jim to chime in. Unless you guys that have already talked to them know that their position is still "wait and see," from all of us.

I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

.

(they use a 1---2--go routine) You can't be serious.

Ed Brice

Ed

I think Tim is serious. To top it off, he has amd maybe still does at times have to use that method and I'd bet the farm he's won a ton more races than you.

"Do everyone a favor and sell your stocker" Indeed. My opinions make me a liability to the class, is that it? OR is it because they may differ from your own? What's your beef with me. My comment about folks named Ed on this forum has more to do with language and intolerance than validity of their opinion.

I don't short sell what you say, I simply disagree with it. Yeah the sport is changing. What tripe, that's the non thinker speaking. As the sport evolves does it have to evolve a certain way? Electronics is going to be, in my opinion, the death knell for Stock and Super Stock as it will grow to be as interesting to watch as bracket racing. NHRA knows this I fear, and it would be a good means by which to eliminate this format from National Events as interest would wane. Look in the stands during a bracket race. Although they empty pretty well during Sportsman eliminations at National Events, there are far more who watch than do a Bracket race.

Exploring ways to improve and enhance class racing (not enhance like the added fees for all events), discussing in open forum the various nuances of proposed changes, new ideas, and new trends is not a bad thing. To disagree doesn't mean someone doesn't get it - it just means they disagree.

Peace, Rev. Mopar

At Ohio Valley the top bulb is staggered in every class that is not a delay class. I never knew it until someone told me last week. This makes leaving off the top bulb impossible. This is something that should be done at every NHRA race for classes that are not allowed a delay box. it's one more thing that can prevent cheating. Personally I think stock should be a footbrake class with two steps only legal for stick cars. I don't race in Super Stock but anyone that think's adjustable buttons are not a dleay device are not being honest with themselves. That's the reason they are adjustable . A lot of my friends thqt race Super Stock use these buttons and I don't blame them, they are legal, however whether they should be legal or not is another matter.


Greg

Peace this rev................blah .....blah ......blah .....blah


Ed Brice

I have to agree with Ed. You can vary the top bulb 2 to 3 hundredths either way and not "notice it" but it be enough to make anyone who IS leaving off the top bulb inconsistent (inconsistent enough not to win races anyway).

Mike, back when they did it last time, it was a varying tenth either way and that's why it was SO noticeable.

Tim, you do it this way and there it will not effect the people that count the tree.

Mike, as far as people leaving off the bottom bulb with adjustment, who cares. They are still leaving off the bottom bulb and EVERYONE has adjsutment, weather it is in your valvebody, rpm, or whatever.

The wrong or cheating here are the people who are leaving off the top bulb, so let's get to the matter at hand and vary the top bulb slightly to get rid of that.

Mike, you are pretty smart with most things but you surprise me here with some of your thoughts.

.

.

>> Can't you make a post without writing a book.

No. Maybe my posts are longer because I not only express an opinion, but try to support it as well.

>> Staggering the tree is the answer, you don't know what the F*** your talking about. Counting the bulbs down, get real man.

Average human reaction time is about .200. The third amber comes on at -.500. R/T = Driver Reaction Time + Vehicle Reaction Time. That means that unless your vehicle reaction time (rollout) is .30 or better, you could not cut a perfect light without counting (anticipating the 3rd light). There are a lot of Stockers out there that don't have a rollout better than .35!

>> (they use a 1---2--go routine) You can't be serious.

At Pageland, the rollout is crazy loose. I was leaving on the second bulb going out to come up with .00x's, even though the car 60'd a 1.49! The rollout for my car at that track was a .41. I wasn't even looking at the third bulb! At Piedmont, my car's rollout was more like a .37. Even though I feel like I'm leaving off the third bulb, technically, I'm anticipating it by several hundredths. Ain't the best spot in the world, but it's workable.

Unscrew the bottom bulb on your practice tree sometime. If you can still hit the tree, you're counting, whether you realize it or not.

>> The wrong or cheating here are the people who are leaving off the top bulb

Who's leaving off the top? The good drivers in the right car are just as good off the bottom, and by blocking the tree, they can still 'first flash' race, there's no need to top bulb race anyway. It's not delay boxes that make Super Pro tough, it's $50K 4-link dragsters. (Shout out to Chris Plott, who won Top ET footbraking his Cougar at Mooresville on Saturday!)

You can see a top bulb variance of .03. With a variance of .02, you'd make a delay box user .030 on the tree. But again, I think it's a moot point, because I don't think anybody's using them. When someone did, he got caught.

>> With the idea being we'd see a change in who's a frequent wiener....

Doubt it. While the starting line is extremely important, the upper echelon of drivers are winning racers by dialing and top end strategies. You should watch the local Box guys carrying .05 in the 1/8th mile in their dragsters that can repeat within thousandths all day.... makes you shake your head and go "WHY???"

>> you don't know what the F*** your talking about.

Mmmm.... yeeeeah. You let me know when I've acquired enough experience to validate my opinions. ;-) Now, if a driver's season average reaction time isn't in the .020's, how can that driver say what other people can or cannot see, or what other people can and cannot do?

Tim won't talk on himself, but anybody that can win the NHRA National Sportsman Championship in a stock street-driven Jeep Grand Cherokee, and nearly win the IHRA Stock World Championship in a FWD Cavalier (and some 9-passenger wagon) more than likely knows a thing or two about counting the tree.

I respect Robert Pare's opinion -- 2-time Bracket Finals champ.

$.02,


Michael Beard
<u>Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing</u>
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

Michael-

You have stated facts that point to why some people swear by delay boxes. It's not that the box improves their ability to react to the tree any better, it is that the box allows them a means to overcome the deficiencies of their own inability to react fast enough and/or their car's inability to react fast enough. If the combination of personal reaction time is .250 sec and the car has a reaction time of only .350 sec, there is no way to bottom bulb race with any success. Leaving between one light and another is not as consistent as reacting to a change in visual stimuli, by scientific evidence, so this guy is set up for reduced sucess because of the mechanical situation. Enter the delay box and voila, he can overcome the limitations. Maybe that is one factor why faster cars seem to win more - they have the ability to do the necessary .300-or-better reaction time. This situation is why I am impressed by drivers of slow cars who win consistently. Do you remember the "Mr. Dirt" series in Super Stock magazine years ago?? All this stuff is what it takes to be a good driver.

Will someone please, may be Mike Beards, answer me one question. Why is it that ALL the dominate racers I have either spoken to or overheard a conversation are adamantly against delay box in comp and s/s.

Just my 2 cents, but where is it written that stock or superstock is about driving, or being the best driver.
It seems like this was supposed to be a performance oriented class, but we have all but lost that part of class racing.
I think Pat has the right idea with cic type racing for stock and super stock.

I to have changed my vote from no to yes for reasons much the same as Mr. Bowtie Bomber. ( what is it with hiding behind these screen names ) Anyone who thinks a spec button will change anything is a fool. Racers are very adaptive and will figure a way to work around the rule. It would be as simple as taping a ballon or a piece of foam to your thumb and you will slow the action of the button used. Or maybe using some sort of spring loaded plunger to activate the spec button. I bet if you mount the spec button on the brake pedal it would slow down the reaction time.
The long stroke buttons are not actually a delay device, when the switch on the button is de energized the trans brake solenoid is instantly realeased. There is no delay. these are just slow buttons.
I dont know of any one in superstock who is not using some sort of long stroke button. With the LED bulbs and a 127 60' time leaving on the bottom yellow you have to have a button of this type or you will be red. I use the 5-0 button with almost no shim to get a green light. seems like there alot more stock guys involved in this debate than S/S racers. What do some of you championship contenders think? Dan, Peter, Anthony, Jimmy
I would rather race with a delay box than have NHRA pick some button that I can't be competitive with. Next they will tell you what RPM to leave at or what pressure your tires must have or what shock setting to run. maybe they will tell you you have to use your thumb or your index finger to actuate the brake button or where you will have to mount the button. These are all ways that we all use to control our reaction times.

Mike

Because they dominate for a reason - they are better at driving than most. They are probably better at both ends of the track. Putting delay boxes in will tighten up EVERYONES reaction time. They may not need it and win alot of rounds because of it.

I have said this for years... it is harder to consistently cut good lights off the bottom bulb, but those that can and do cut consistently good lights will dominate that field.

Wanna play mind games?

Kevin, if that's the case, WHY in hell are most racers voting NO to the box issue.

Bottom-bulbing takes skill. That makes it fun.


Michael Beard
<u>Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing</u>
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

M. Beard, from your post, can I assume you have voted NO To delay boxs?

Mike Pearson - most everyone knows me - I use a fun screen name in the spirit of friendly competition. But because you asked, I'm Bruce Fulper from www.PontiacEngines.com.



I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

Because I think most run stock/SS for the reason that its still fun to take on the challenge. Everyone knows they could bracket race for more money, in a less expensive type car...but they like the purist vision of stock/super stock.....

Now I know many bracket race their rides. But you know what I mean, you could build a bracket only type car that didnt have to find the specific heads/engine combo etc...

I like the aspect of S/SS I like the idea of taking what the factories gave ya and running what ya run.

Wanna play mind games?

Who makes the transmission that everyone is talking about that have the delay or slow transmission ?

What will hapen if NHRA decides to make a Spec Button to the slow transmission?

If NHRA says the other buttons are illegal then can a transmission company build a delay inside the transmission to compete with the present transmissions?

NHRA will not be making a spec button. (I bet) And with todays technology anything is possible. You think someone is going to give you a name here?

dude.




I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

>> M. Beard, from your post, can I assume you have voted NO To delay boxs?

I run Stock eliminator in IHRA, so I do not have a vote, but I would. When I did run NHRA Stock, it was with a 4-cylinder FWD Turismo... I'd be asking for deep staging back, not delay boxes! ;-) I've competed against delay box cars numerous times.... even where they are permitted, I choose to footbrake it.

>> Who makes the transmission that everyone is talking about that have the delay or slow transmission ?

Abruzzi Racing Transmissions (www.abruzziracing.com) can make you a slow-reacting 'brake.


Michael Beard
<u>Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing</u>
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

"Abruzzi Racing Transmissions (www.abruzziracing.com) can make you a slow-reacting 'brake."

!

Really.

Well there you go. One piece of a potential puzzle eh?

hmmm..........









I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

Steve,
Who makes the transmission that everyone is talking about that have the delay or slow transmission ? Dave Smith's Pro flites & I would guess his turbo flites also have the optional delay fluid circuits.

What will hapen if NHRA decides to make a Spec Button to the slow transmission? You just adjust the transmission release

If NHRA says the other buttons are illegal then can a transmission company build a delay inside the transmission to compete with the present transmissions? I'm not sure what you are asking or what other companies can do. I do know I have built Powerglides capable of minor adjustments to the trans brake release.




Adger Smith

With All the comments and pointing out the trans possibilities of delay isnt the only real answer do away with trans brakes? Stall it higher or lower and foot brake it? Many have run faster without and they are really the basis of the problem. If they arent there you cant control it can you?
Problem solution?(no I couldnt vote but would at LEAST say no buttons)This goes for Stock and SS.

Dick Butler 3529

So get rid of a button that cost $100 and people are forced to buy a trans worth $5000? That makes alot of sense.

Mr. Butler: try thinking of us lower class SS before advocating banning of trans brakes...try launching 3800 lbs with 265 CI and 375 CFM WCFB

Randall Klein

Randall,
Sorry I knew not everyone can be happy with the idea of no brake but if the big picture is the majority can be adapting to a foot brake and not worry about all the trans button stuff then would it be best for the big picture? Maybe I am wrong or dont have a reason to care as I am not currently running but an awful lot of people rather have no box and yet express concerns about setting a trans brake internally or trans internally. With out the Brake having a trans to do the work of leaving for the driver is much harder (my opinion).
I recognize also your particular car (arent many your style or success rate)has been basically designed around the Brake technology and without the brake which might satisfy others your particular car would need serious changes and maybe never come back to being able to cause HP changes by running so far under.Maybe with out the brake you'd need a HP reduction to Pre Brake technology. Remember my vote doesnt count in this debate just thoughts I have.

Dick Butler 3529

I LOVE my tranny brake and thus want to keep it.
Crap - how will NHRA police this problem. Hope there's some thinking caps heating up......






I miss the "nearer" level playing field I thought was in place.

I don't get to vote, as I'm still piecing mine together. But I would just as soon they go back to foot braking to stop the acusations toward many, and take away the doubt. I would bet the same guys will still win.

Ed

I guess I'm as guilty as everyone on this topic when it comes to trying to eliminate racers from cheating with delay devices. The more I think about it the more I realize that we are looking for something that is not their.

Why is there such an outcry to change the rules to stop racers from cheating. WHO DO YOU THINK IS CHEATING ! Is cheating out of control? Are the racers that win allot cheating? I mean, are we looking to change the rule for something that's not there because of our own lack of skill and god given talent. Are our ego's so big that we need to justify why we are not winning and others are, my self included.

I have to look at this in a logical way. Lets say racers are cheating. That being establish we must assume that some racers the win allot are cheating. This would be a very small number, maybe 4 or 5 out of hundreds if not thousands of stock/ss racers. Now we all know who wins allot. I think it would be fairly easy to find how they are cheating. One way is to have a tech official on the starting line like they do down here in div 2. The official does not have to check everyone, just a racer that has won many racers in the last year. How hard would it be to look at someone reacting off the top bulb, I don't care who you are, you will not be able to hide it. They could also tear down any racer that think might be cheating.

I think this whole subject is out of control. I think if someone thinks a racers is cheating he needs to say who it is and protest them, otherwise stop your crying.

I know some of the talented racers very well, and I could only wish to be half as good as them. I think some of us need to look in the mirror and realize that life is not always fair. Should I think that Tiger Woods is a cheater because he does so well or should accept he is better than me because he is talented.

I think is easy to say people are cheating, its human nature. Its a justification for some of us to rationalize our inability's to do well at something we love so much.

Sorry folks, I sound like Mr. Beard.....way to long of a post.

Ed Brice

.

Is it possible to foot brake a car that stalls at 7500 to 8000? If you can't there would be a lot of combinations that would become obsolete or have to go to a stick if there were no transbrakes. I think the biggest issue w/the buttons is the fact you can sit in your car and change them like you can change a delay box. Just my .02 'cause I can't vote either! (Just for the record...no to delay boxes)

Tracy Robbins
SS/PCA 9766
Rockett Brand Race Fuels

Yea I heard Dan has a GPS that sends a signal to the space shuttle beams the same signal off of Mars over to Venus back to this carburator and shuts the fuel off if he is running faster. The only problem is it only works when the Space Shuttle is in orbit.


Herb Jr

Dan I dont know you but I hope you liked that.

Just to remind you -

I posted this post because of NHRA's question to us and the seemingly obvious implications that question presents.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. And it's a waste of time for any of you to point fingers. I believe we need quality ideas on how to help NHRA make the playing field a tad more level. So,

Here's my current question - For a moment let's say delay boxes and all other delay goodies are allowed, and if the only device that cannot be controlled is a photo cell, how can you block a photocell.

(Or is it too early to ask that question.)

I miss the "nearer" level playing field I thought was in place.

.

tgriffith, now I understand were you are coming from. Stock is just a name of a class. Those days are gone when you drove the car off the showroom floor, put a set of slicks on, a little tuning and you were racing.

Two steps were started to control rpm for sticks cars. Automatic cars started using them for the same reason. In the early ninety's bracket racers started to run stock and used the two step to fine tune their lights. The class is changing all the time, like it or not you either change or quit. Judging by div 1 and 3 stock is as strong as ever. If the rules are not in the true essence of stock as you say, why does stock keep growing? I'm sorry but your a dying breed, the young people want it and its here to stay. Would you rather see the class go away because you want stock to be a certain way?

As far as it being an advantage for fast cars, its not an advantage if you have access to the same combo. No one is telling you that have to build a slow car. Fast cars can spin the tires more easily than the slow cars, should we give the fast car a bigger tire. You can build what you like, if you can't afford it, well that's to bad, racing is not cheap.

Ed, we are not talking about performance cheating. I will give you one thing, at least you have the balls to say who you think is cheating. So Ed, why don't you do something about?

Ed Brice