Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Todd,
One of these days ya'll will realize it is a bracket race for the most part.
Chip

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

A good friend of mine lost his chance to be world champ 2 years in a row because the car he was driving wasn't fast enough to win the heads up races he ran into. That saying " It's all just a big bracket race is a bunch of **** " Ask anybody who has had a car on the edge of qualifying at a race where only 128 got in, and there were 160 trying. But heads up racing almost never happens in IHRA so I can understand your point racing there. That's not the case in NHRA .

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

I will re-phrase then.
If you use shoe polish its a bracket race. In stock in some cases you have to qualify, In some cases you have heads -up runs, You have more rules but lack of tech it does'nt really matter. That being said Stock Eliminator is a very expensive form of BRACKET RACING.
Chip

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

This is the right answer This subject has been through the winter season quite a few times.Except it as it is.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Todd,
Other than INDY that 128 crap don't hold water anymore either. How many times did people not race this year because of full fields.
Chip

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

I have been saying the same thing for a long time and the statistics prove it!

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

IHRA car counts are low enough there aren't many heads ups. Not so in NHRA, unless your in a class hardly anybody else runs.
One of the reasons I stopped bracket racing and went back to SS, I got tired of giving head starts to 468" to 500' big block cars with dominator carbs.
Don't have to know how to make a car run to bracket race. Drag out any old thing, leave on time and run that shoe polish number on the window.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Indy was still a qualified field, this year we had less cars competing. The bump wasn't crazy, but u still had to run well enough to get it. In the past in Division 1 we had to qualify to race a few of the races. That was years ago.
Chip, Tony, come race division 1 or 3 with a A through H stocker for a whole year and see how much bracket to heads up races you wind up with.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Todd,
go to my new Thread about heads-up and answer the question
Chip

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

If I did come to Div 1 or 3 it would be a car lower than H probably M, N or O

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

This issue of "Class Racer" or "Bracket Racer" gets brought up often. And I would venture to say those that are the least successful "Class Racers" are the ones who expound the idea that Class Racers are nothing more than Bracket racers.
That being said, if your on the bracket side of the debate, on your arguments, a bracket car is nothing more than a street car.
Reminds me of the "end of the world" crowd. They've been denouncing life as we know it for centuries. True, one of these days they'll get it right but they've missed their deadlines thousands of times thus far.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Jeff,
I thought you were a lot smarter than that. It may be that way on the left coast but not east of the Mississippi.
A few names come to mind like Biondo,Bertozzi,Rampy,Beard, and a lot more that started off racing with shoe polish.
Chip

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

I can backup Todd's statement about barely making it in for a 128 car show at a Division 1 race....

I had my Firebird in A/FIA a few years ago and was 200+ lbs overweight.
I raced in A to avoid the real fast B cars....
My car was pretty slow as I was just getting going with a car like this....EFI LT-1 home built engine and fuel map...and it was not to good back than...

I made a decent first run in cool air and never gave a thought to possibly being bumped out of the field.....

I wound up 120 something out of a 150 something car field....but was worried I would be bumped out as more and more cars showed up....

I think I bulbed in round one for the umpteenth time it seemed like.....but at least I got to race....

If I knew it was going to be like that I could have probably sped it up more than enough to be solidly in the field....The weight was pretty much fixed where it was.....but I could have tried some other common speeder upper tricks....

I liked it though and I felt pretty proud just to be able to get in....

No where near as many cars the last few years.....

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

I think what Jeff is saying is that if you EMBRACE what class racing is (and it is not bracket racing), as opposed to looking at it like its a bracket race, you will be much more successful at it. The drivers you mentioned do JUST THAT. Does being a great bracket racer help you as a class racer? I don't think that's even up for a debate, of course it does. But if you don't adopt the mindset of class racing, you will be less successful at it.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

oops

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Those guys are the best and most acomplished racers that we have the honor and privlage to race with.
after saying that, Those guys haven't built anything themself, and can't turn a wrench themselves. They have plenty of people around them, some are the best wrenches in the business. I know one, and he is a major contributor to the success of the guy he helps. If those guys didn't have the money, or help they would not be racing with us in the NHRA. Why, because the cars we race, and sometimes heads up :eek: are not mindless oversized engine, and tire footbrake bracket cars that run with no standard. The heads up, quailifying, and other aspects of our racing is what balances out our racing. Ask any of the Allpro dragracers that we have to dragrace with in the NHRA if it is just a bracket race? I think you will find a different answers than the nonsence spewed here...

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

When I first became interested in NHRA, you had to win class to get into the eliminator on Sunday. That became my first goal...... to be able to race in SS eliminator on Sunday. I'll never forget the announcer's address in round 1.... "here are all of the class winners in Super Stock...... " You had to earn your spot in the eliminator. Those were the days.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Amen!!

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Scott,
It was definately different when you had to win class to race on Sunday. IHRA was like that once also.
It was different when you had to dial the record or the standard too.
it's different now.

Todd,
Are you telling me Rampy can't change convertor. Come on. I think you are smoking that same crap Jeff Lee is.
Chip Johnson

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

I've raced under both..... win class and qualifying. I guess that's what makes Indy more challenging. And in my opinion, it's still the best race. I still say though that moving to Comp was the best thing I ever did. I was a lot happier there. Super Stock is a training ground. When you think you've got it together, go to Comp. Very simple, qualify, pump, weigh and race. First car to the finish line wins.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

I've seen Rampy race, he has a full time crew chief. He never works on the car when he is at the races. He has never had to. Knowing how to bolt in a converter and doing it are 2 different things. BTW, I've seen his car win heads up races in that it's just a bracket race class. I think you are the guy smoking something..... CHIP the legend

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

I saw Rampy come to NC back in the winter of 92 I think. It was a little outlaw track running a couple 5k races. He won sat and r/u on sunday BRACKET RACING. I saw him running .90 stuff in the 80's. No way in a million years will I ever believe he can't work on his own stuff. Just because he has a cewchief don't mean he can't do it.
I will tell you another one was Jim Harrington. In my opion one of the best. He could drive anything and won in most. He could and did work on the cars he drove.
Are you telling me Edmond and Scotty don't know nothing. They both are bracket racers that did well Class racing. In fact Edmond probably bracket races more than you peopl stock race.
Jeff Taylor started out bracket racing when he was 14 years old in NC. He even once saidafter winning one of his World Championships that he bracket raced to stay sharp. He thought it made him a better class racer. I guess he don't know anything either.
I could keep going on this subject.
Chip

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

WHat the hell does David Rampy winning bracket races have to do with working on his car? Believe what you want. He was driving for people back then. He raced SS in the early 80's with a 72 Pontiac like I used to own, that Harold Stout used to own? Do you have any clue what your talking about???
I grew up watching Jim Harrington race, spent time at his school testing my car . I think the world of him, and was honored to know and race with him. He ran the tires off of everything he raced. I think Bertozzi owned the SS/ mod car he drove. I think he got help with the stocker in the years before he passed on. I remember him back in the day racing, he was hard on stuff. I don't remember him being a wrench, or using one often unless he had no choice. A great driver and even better guy, but not any kind of mechanic.
The Richardsons are drivers, and great ones at that. The car that Edmond drives is owned by the Faulk's . Scotty bought his car and just raced it, he mostly drives for people now. Neither guys are known for being mechanics, and they dont have to be.
Jeff Taylor is known as a SS and Comp engine builder/driver. Been doing it as long as I'm alive. He is not a fulltime bracket racer.

This whole thread is about teardown at races. Then somebody sugested no rules, teardown, and all dial. I had an opinion about it and you told me that we all need to wake up and realize it is almost all bracket racing. Now we are at this. Face it Chip you are wrong on both threads. When you are in a hole and cant get out...STOP DIGGING! As the famous and very missed Ed Obrien used to say. Have a nice day...;)

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

There's nothing wrong with bracket racing. No doubt most, if not all of us started there are maybe even continue there. But your constant inference that there is nothing special about class racing compared to bracket racing is old. Like I said, those that fail in class racing are the loudest proponents against class racing and are constantly calling for or predicting the demise of class racing. Sorry if you can't handle the truth but misery loves company.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Todd,
You are the one that said these guys can't turn a wrench. There is no way these guys have raced as long as they have with the kind success they have without getting their hands dirty. They all started out Bracket Racing whether they do much of it now or not.
Believe what you want.
Chip

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Jeff,
Never said Class racing was'nt special. It takes "SPECIAL" people to do it, thats for sure. I do know and I will keep saying it, If you put Shoe polish on the window it's a bracket race.
If your last couple of sentences were directed at me, I thought I did o.k. Class Racing. I won a division Championship, finished TopTen in the World 3 times, Set some records, won class some, and had the honor to teardown too. I know it was in IHRA with a Crate Motor car but it is what it is.
No I did'nt build my motors orTransmissions, but I did get my hands dirty on them and laid on my back and bent over the fenders many a nights trying to make the car better. Ya'll keep it up and you may p!ss me off enough to build another one.
Chip Johnson

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

The only part of Class Racing that is bracket racing is what the Bracket Racers needed in order to have a chance of succeeding in Class Racing. That BS started years ago. If you had to go FAST in order to win in eliminations you would see a big difference in the outcomes and the heros. No slam towards Bracket Racing. That is the divers section of Drag Racing. Class Racing started out being HP and skill at getting it off the line and down the track in the quickest (by the rules) way possible. And that is the way it should still be. But I know,-----evolution. We are going to be extinct if we keep up with all this evolution. Nothing I admire more than a good driver and a fast car that can pass tech. I didn't start out Bracket Racing because there basically was none. Nothing wrong at all with Bracket Racing, but don't drag it over here into Class Racing. If you think that Class Racing is just Bracket Racing then why not just go to Bracket Races and save the time fussing about it. Quit trying to change probably one of the most challenging areas of drag racing. Well, it used to be challenging. But with all the aftermarket enhancements brought about by "evolution", its getting less and less challenging to me and alot of other racers apparantly.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

The challange is getting greater as the rules get looser,along with the enforcement of rules and lack of stronger tech..
This is two problems within themselves.
Again the sanctions do not bring the help they need to enforce..
When i was teching at IHRA ,there was a lot of things i tried to do to keep the drivers on their toes,such as alternators and belts ,loose ballast,two step buttons , and other things that i could pretty much do on my own.
At Baton Rouge ,i caught at least 6 stockers without alt belts and a few loose ballast.
As i said the lack of help is one of the major problems in checking and monitoring these things..I tried but believe me it is not a one-man show....

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Very good post. It is now way dumbed down so the bracket racers can compete. Put things back like they started out and a lot would have to go back to just bracket racing. How many today would drive to Pomona only to have somebody hand you your tail first round of class, and send you home with no chance of running eliminations, and ever go back again? Nobody anymore. We did it all the time.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

there should be teardown for winners and runners up,race should be done on saturday if possible to allow time to do it . but that aint gonna happen cause nhra dont give a ***** who wins or what they do to win. nhra wont spend the money to have a by the book tech dept with the balls to enforce the rules.[why should they when you will give them ridiculous entry fees now to get hosed at every race]. who would wanna be a tech inspector anyway for the pitance they pay them and a good shot at getting into a fight trying to tell someone that just cause their head doesnt have nice cnc marks on it doesnt mean that its not altered. times are a changing in racing and life in general and going by the rules is not so admirable anymore. the new mentality is whatever it takes to get mine ,right or wrong and it cannot be undone. class racing needs ridgid enforcement of the rules , or it becomes just another bracket race [no offense to bracket people] but the way its going its gonna be like nmra type racing with very loose rules and only a few combos that are competitive.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Good post. One reason why I quit over 10 years ago. NHRA and IHRA has/had some great tech people but the cylinder head deal went out of control many moons ago. Everyone became law suit crazy over a hobby. Not to mention light cranks, rods, Shubeck style lifters, aftermarket pistons in stock with moved valve reliefs, etc. This might pizz off some on here but I really dont care. Stock has become a joke. S/S has become WAY to expensive to be a front runner for the pay outs one can expect to win unless you run a car in BRACKET MODE !

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

I realize opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one.
That being said, back in the day anyone could run fast enough for next to nothing for an investment. Today, most can't because there is always someone will to make a larger investment. Shoe polish is the great equalizer. The class trophy comes with lots of money, pride and hard work. The eliminator trophy comes with a very consistent race car that can dial the index or faster, a very skillful driver that has both ends of the track mastered and is a artist with the shoe polish.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

"Back in the day" those parts were just as hard to afford because we didn't make as much money back then. Inflation makes prices from that time look a lot cheaper. I think anybody that says different wasn't actually racing "back in the day".

Prize money has not changed. We could win as much in the mid '70s as now. It sure went a lot further than it does now, that's for sure.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Well , here is my button . If you thought it was easy to go fast , ` back in the day ` you should have been there . No bogus index , you had to run the National Record . Ed has the whole money deal right down to a tee .

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Not the way I remember it. There sure were alot of racers sitting on the sidelines that didn't win class so no shot in the eliminator. You had to win class to be eligible to run the eliminator. And "fast enough" was the fastest in that class on that particular day. And the winner and runner up tore down period. I have tore down in a field, in the rain, at night, while the tech guy slept in his car. And I wouldn't like it today the same way I didn't like it way back then, but if it was required I would do it.
Some have been dumbed down to the point of not only not working on their cars, they don't want to. Its easier to get a rule changed than to abide by it. And thats BS. Money will buy you a fast bullet but if you don't have a clue how to tune or maintain it you won't be fast long. And you will need to have a pretty good racecar to start with that has to be adjusted frequently and maintained.
Yes its expensive, way too expensive with all the rule changes every other week and the crap interpretations of the way the rule book is written changing from event to event.
Should racing go back to the "good ole' days". I don't think it would last a season mostly due to the fact that we have become spoiled by all the allowances.

Danny Waters, I am sorry to see you leave S/SS. Your Gt car effort was admirable. Hope to see you and your son back in S/SS at some point.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

You guys are going waaaaay back. Our differences lie in the definition of "back in the day". I am speaking of the early 80's. I remember all having a reasonable index and cars were not factored to death. Back when one could be competitive while really being stock.
Just was alot more fun then.

Re: All major event s/ss winners undrgo tech inspection
 

Nope. Even in the early 80's you had to work VERY hard just to get a couple of tenths under. If the air was bad you were out of luck. I was there and I know how much we had to work and spend. As usual, the guys with the deep pockets went the fastest.