Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Gentlemen,
For those of you who think more and new cars are the answer for Stock Eliminator is the answer please read on. I am fully convinced that GM and the NHRA do not want any competition for the new Camaro. I had plans to build a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V that is not on the NHRA approved list. When I looked into getting it approved I was shot down by GM. Please read the emails between myself, NHRA and GM below. Start at the bottom and read up to make better sense. GM comments are in bold.

From my engine develpoer:

xxxxxxxl,

trying to fight NHRA, is bad enough, NHRA and GM, i do not think there is any hope, as i said when we talked , a cadilac would for sure be a novel car to race in GT, there are variety of engine combos that would work including some of the new GM crate engines, think about it if you feel you are interested let me know


To my engine developer,

Wow!!! I guess he told me.

Looks like unless you are building a new Camaro for stock you can't play. I'd expect this from NHRA but, this is GM talking. I've got the nerve to build it anyway and run IHRA.


I guess we will just have to agree to dis-agree in regards to HP potential of the LSA engine in NHRA "stock" eliminator configuration. Regardless....it doesn't change anyting. I hope I can save the Cadillac dealer from investing $200K in a bad plan.

What I was trying to explain relative to "swim lanes" was how we divide up our brand markets. In motorsports, Cadillac uses Road Racing where competitors complete (Audi, Volvo, Porsche, Mercedes Benz) to promote their vehicles and generate leads with potential customers.

Chevrolet uses NASCAR (Toyota, Ford), and Drag Racing (Toyota, Ford, Dodge) to promote their vehicles. We have invested significant resources in building and promoting Camaro in NHRA. We each have a "lane" that is used to market our vehicles to the desired customer base.

We won't compete "against" ourselves. That is a no-win situation.

Whether you agree with that strategy or not, that is our plan.


Great to see you are so enthusiastic about Cadillac and Drag Racing. Unfortunately....there is not any "Stock Eliminator" classes that would allow the CTS-V to be competitive and therefore have positive exposure.

See my responses below.


Good aftenoon Roger,
Again thank you for responding so quickly. I have asked a few more questions, this time in Green.

Good questions xxxxxx

See below.

Hi xxxxx....sounds like you like a challenge.

For a vehicle to be run in NHRA Stock Eliminator category....there are 2 separate ways to get a car "accepted".

1) The OEM manufacturer must build a minimum of 50 special vehicles like COPO Camaro, Drag Pak or Mustang Cobra Jet. The design must be submitted to NHRA for approval. So, is this me going to the head of Cadillac... or can my dealership do this. What is the process of submittingfor NHRA approval? Per the NHRA rulebook (section 10 - stock)...OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the oficial NHRA Guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent. In short...the OEM (GM in this case) must build a Proof of Concept race car and get NHRA to approve it. This is what we did with the COPO. There are many requirements based on NHRA "Stock" regulations.


[B]2) The OEM manufacturer must submit the technical specifications for the production vehicle that is sold through the GM dealer network.[B]Please forgive me, I don't want to sound stupid; Do I go to my dealership or to the Cadillac headquarters somewhere and request them to submit the technical specifications. This is something that I do as part of my job responsibilities....assuming my management and the divisional marketing folks are in agreement. In the case of a Cadillac in drag racing....it is not the target market of Cadillac and would probably not get their approval. Chevrolet Camaro is the "brand" chosen to represent GM in drag racing. I think we all can agree that Cadillac has not been in the forefront or on the drag racing sence for sometime now. However, I feel with this car, Cadillac can include drag racing to it's resume and long list of open course racing champions. The car would be used as a promotional and advertising tool locally and nationally at NHRA events. With this new explosure we plan to create a new younger market. A market demanding varity and getting more "Made In the USA." If presented correctly and with the CLASS that Cadillac has always stood for; how could you not allow this combination to become a winner. So, where do we go from here to find this car a CLASS of it's own? If you would like I can put together a presentation and present to your management and marketing teams, if you like. Interest from a dealer would certainly help getting management to consider this but at the same time there are "swim lanes" that the divisions are allowed to play in (you don't see Cadillac in NASCAR or Corvette in Drag Racing) so I think it will be a tough sell especially since it would be very uncompetitive. I would love to see a presentation that shows how a 4170 lb 556 HP CTS-V could be competitive with a 3188 lb 700 HP COPO. Again, I have no idea what you mean by swim lanes. Please explain. My friend who owns the dealership is slowly losing interest because of the red tape that I am having here. This is a 200k project going down the drain. Your HP estimates are way of as far as I'm concerned. I see the LSA engine making 850-900 HP. So, by my estimates I see this car running ET's at 9.637 @ 140.45 mph or faster. I will talk to my engine developer xxxxxx to see what his estimates are and get back to you.

In the case of the Cadillac CTS-V Coupe, the engine is rated at 556 HP. It would make for a very uncompetitive vehicle. Why are you suggesting that this would be an non-competitive combination? Isn't the LSA engine that is used in the Cadillac the same engine used in the COOP Camaros? Is this not the same engine that is in the Cagnazzi Team Camaro build, driven by Dave Conley? What are the Camaro's horsepower rated at? On paper, I see this as a very competitive car/engine combo. The way it works in NHRA....the class and weight of the vehicle is proportional to the "rated" HP of the engine. We have a specially designed and build engine (approved as part of the "inclusion" vehicle #1 above) in the COPO Camaro (Cagnazzi-Dave Connolly) rated at 425 HP. In CC/SA class this car weighs 7.5lb/HP or 3188 lbs. The engine (dyno test) makes over 700HP. Your CTS-V with the LSA engine is "rated" at 556 HP. It acually makes 556 HP on the dyno. Your car would weigh (7.5lb/HP x 556HP) 4170 lbs. So you can see that your car 4170 lbs with 556 HP would be no match for Cagnazzi's 3188 lb COPO that makes 700 HP. I have made a huge mistake in assuming that the COPO Camaro and the CTS-V have the same engines. This is untrue. The Camaro that has the LSA engine is the new ZL1 Camaro. So, I'm hoping that if granted approval it would be simpler because, of the CTS-V being a true production car. Would this change the weight break and or class? It is still vehicle weight as a function of rated HP.....the CTS-V would not be competitive at all and would be good exposure for Cadillac.

Thanks again Roger!!!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91mgz6b7AU"]2012 COPO Camaro Testing - Victor Cagnazzi Racing, Dave Connolly and Brian Macy - YouTube[/ame]

Hope this helps answer at least your first question. Thank you Roger for you quick reply. I am sure to have many questions to come.

Feel free to shoot me back a message if you want to discuss this further.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Mr. Allen,
My name is xxxxxxx, I was given your name and contact information by Bruce Bachelder of the NHRA. He explained to me that you may be the person to assist me, as my project is a member of the GM family. I am inquiring as to how to get a car not currently on the Official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide accepted.

I am working with a local Cadillac dealership interested in campaigning a 2013 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe for NHRA Stock. This will be the first attempt of this kind to build such a car as I am currently putting together our team and engine development program. This car is equipped with the same engine that is used in the COOP Camaros. We fell, that with this sleek, aerodynamic and stealth like body style would be an exciting addition to the new breed of cars currently being offered (i.e. Camaros, Challengers, Mustangs).

I seek your assistance in this matter and look forward to working with you and the NHRA to make this a reality.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Here is marketing opportunity where Ihra can come into play and get the Caddy certified to run in Stock.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Simple solution if NHRA had the balls to do it, tell GM Ford and Chrysler if they want their FX cars allowed in stock, submit the specs for the real stockers to be put in the guide as well. For those who can't afford a factory race car, you can build an affordable stocker from a 80's/90's Mustang, Camaro, Malibu, Dakota PU or what ever. 10 / 20 years from now, non of those opportunities are going to exist.

Jim Mantle V/SA 68

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

There is no way that the CTS-V would be a good Stock or Super Stock combination.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

But it is his money. If wishes to attempt it, with a real car, why stop him?
I remember when great friends of mine and part one of the nicest families you'll meet, Tom Rix, (Ok, Carol Rix might have been a bit skeptical) said he was going to see if a Buick could run in Top Stock...

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

I don't think a 1970 Olds 442 Convertible would be a good Stock or Super Stock combination nowadays either,but I know somebody that still races one.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Why ?
Just curious.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

This is the killer statement for me.

"We won't compete "against" ourselves. That is a no-win situation. Whether you agree with that strategy or not, that is our plan."

GM wants no competition for the new Camaro. The Cadillac 2013 CTS-V would blow the doors off that Camaro and they know it.

Chime in Gump!!!

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

For all the non-believers:
The Mustang has several upgrades and Drag Radials the CTS-V is showroom stock.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIW9j_J_izQ"]650 HP Shelby GT500 Mustang vs 556 HP CTS-V Drag Race Video - Heads Up - Road Test TV - YouTube[/ame]

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

IMO by the time you buy a Coupe CTS-V and make all the changes to be a true stock class racer you would spent a lot more then a COPO from a privet owner at 120K!

The V coupe starts at $70+K then add another easy 50K to make it a contender. If the LSA was a better setup the COPO 2.9 Whipple car would have been made that way. The TVS1900 is a good street blower but way too small for drag racing. All the top dog V's have put a BIG huffers or turbos on to make big power.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

4250# / 556 HP = 7.64 which would make it a natural CC/SA car. 10.60 index < 12.01 E.T. Is there 2 seconds in the car? Mebbe. Not cheap.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

I'm not trying to defend myself, I know what this car is capable of doing and so does GM and the NHRA. The point that I was trying to make was this is a new car that no one is running, looks very nice with very clean lines. However, GM doesn't want any competition for the Camaro. You can't build and run any car that you like. NHRA has give GM the authorization of to tell us what we can and cannot build. This is not how it use to be and should not be IMO.

Someone asked is there 2 seconds in the CTS-V. Well, the Mustang GT (which is in the video) a like car just qualified #10 at Cordova Ill. with a very impressive 8.910 in AAA/SA trim on a 9.70 index. Do the math. Oh, BTW he won the event too!!!

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Math: The COPO is rated at 435, making it about 900 pounds lighter in the same class.

While it would be nice if every single car combination ever built was in the Guide and available for racers to decide for themselves what they do and do not want to race, realistically it is the factory's ball (ie., finances, marketing, etc.). While the CTS-V is not 'in competition' with the COPO, it would not show itself in a favorable light in S/SS competition. The factories choose to market their different products in different venues.

As a sidebar, one of my all-time favorite Stockers is Ray Golanka's Q/SA Cadillac. :cool:

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

The two mustangs your talking about are about as apples to oranges comparison as it gets. Just like a COPO compared to a SS or a ZL1, not at all.

Until you have taken a long look and understand what it takes to make a true stock class racer, it is very under estimated by the average person.

At this point I don't see anyone else Dodge or Ford adding another fighter to there card. IMO.:D

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

If NHRA put it in the guides and mandated the factory pulley sizes(like they do on the Cobra Jets and COPOs) the platform would not be very competitive. A lot of what the aftermarket does to the CTS-V would not be allowed per the rulebook.

No pulley changes, No blower swaps, No Throttle Body changes, No mass air housing changes, No high lift cams, these are all things that people that are running fast with the CTS-V are doing.

A car that I would think would have been competitive never really did much. I heard of one person building one but sold it. The 03 Cobra(its in the guide) 3400# at 390HP. These cars were under rated from the factory. The IRS could be swapped for a 4 link the rule book says nothing about pulley size in the blueprint section, the 4.6s architecture lends itself well to amazing RPM and the Heads are really good. The car is a natural F/S which is an 11.80 index IIRC. This car could run the number needed under the rules. If NHRA said nope stock pulleys required then it just became a whole lot more expensive to build. I heavily considered pulling off my aftermarket supercharger on my 03 Cobra that's my daily driver to go run at one time. But decided the CJ was the route and I wanted to go faster then my daily driver with a purpose built racecar.

I'm not trying to be discouraging. If you want to build one submit everything to NHRA its a long uphill battle to get new items in the guide. If you want to do it chase after it. Don't give up just because its hard or people discouraging it. People who say it can't be done should not interupt those that are doing it.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

D. Johns,

I am the one that built the 03 Cobra and got it classified and put into the guides. It was a full year and a half process going between Ford and NHRA to get it done, kinda of pain but worth it non the less. I started with a body in white and built it from the ground up. The car went 10.75 at 127 mph in A/S in 4000ft of air in August at the Northern Sports with a complete stock long block from Ford and Comp stocker cams and springs. I did put a Lightning upper pulley on the Eaton. The car only went down the track 10 times. I hadn't even had a chance to tune the car, EGT were way off, the car had too much gear and many other new car bugs. I only sold it cause of the 2008 economic crash, or the car would still be in my garage. Before the Cobra Jets, it would have been the real deal!!!



Bret Velde

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Gentleman, the CTS-V in the video is showroom stock. The Mustang is the car that had several modification done to it. The Mustang is factory rated 100hp more than the CTS-V yet could only beat the CTS-V by .5.

Let's forget the CTS-V thing for a moment and say I wanted to build a new Corvette that has the same engine combination. Hmmmm, turns out that that combination is not listed either. Again my concern is with GM when they tell me:

"We won't compete "against" ourselves. That is a no-win situation. Whether you agree with that strategy or not, that is our plan."

It seems to me what GM should be concerned about is placing winners in the winner circle regardless of model and giving all production cars exposure. The COOPs are not production cars, don't have VIN #'s and cannot be driven on the street. Not to mention have a FORD rearend. Yet they are allowed in stock. Don't get me wrong I'm not against the COOPs, just feel I should be able to build what ever combination I choose as long as it is a production car.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Are you just making these numbers up? That Mustang is factory rated 56HP LESS than the CTS-V.

It's seems like you're trying to make out that Mustang to be a 2013 GT500 with a 5.8 and the TVS 2300 blower rated at 662HP. It's not at all. Those early GT500s were a 5.4 with a M122 blower and were rated at 500HP.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Actually, that particular GT500 in the video was factory rated at 500 hp for 2008.
IMO, that video means nothing because of one being modified and the other not.

A good video would be a stock 2013 GT500 (rated at 662 hp) vs. the new 2013 CTS-V.

Now that would mean something.

http://2008shelbygt500.com/specs.htm


edit:
I got treed by kdanner ^^^

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Awe yes, Bretv that screen name looks familiar. When I was looking at my options I stumbled across your car in some old threads on some web sites. I probably would have built an 03 Cobra had I not picked up at BIW Cobra Jet instead. Doing the math it had the HP to run the numbers and lord knows we have enough 4.6 stuff laying around the shop. I could have been racing sooner but the CJ was just too good to pass up and my wife really gave me a crappy look when I said cut up my 50k mile 03 Cobra.

I thank you for all the effort you put into getting the car accepted into the guide. I'm still surprised no one has built another one to make some waves with it.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

D. Johns,

The guy I sold it to, pulled the G-Force out and sold it, also sold the good 9 inch 3rd member and strange brakes off the car. He put an auto in it and tried to drive on the street. He sold to a guy that ran it in the NHRA Unleashed series a couple races. Then he sold it to guy that called me a couple months ago, and supposedly going to make it a legal stocker again.




Bret Velde

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

First, I have to say that I love the CTS-V and would like to see it in the guide with a reasonable classification. But, reallity says that won't happen any time soon.

I have said it before on here, but the current Stock Eliminator rules have gone in a direction that is totally opposite from what the factories are producing for the street. That is why the current factory race cars came into being. Like them or not, they are built according to the current rules.

For the CTS-V to be a good combination it would need a weight break that reflects the items that can legally be removed (maybe 3500 lbs). It would also need a realistic HP number (maybe 425-450). GM could submit this, but as your e-mails point out, they won't.

To suggest that it is a good idea to build a 4250 lb CTS-V for CC/SA is crazy. Just a little research would tell you how badly it would be out gunned (as others have pointed out). Keep in mind that the LS3 based cylinder heads are pretty good, but not anything like the LS7 heads used on the blown COPO's. Add the small blower and you have a hard uphill road to climb.

Sorry for the late reply, but I was in El Salvador working when I posted my last comment and haven't had much in the way of internet time until now.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Well said GUMP! And with that being said, IMO this is one of the biggest reasons Stock and Super Stock is a dying breed. Along with Super Street, Super Gas and Super Comp, all of these classes are bracket racing and not drag racing. Boring to drive and boring for fans. Whatever happened to drag racing where you try to go faster than the last pass? It's in Comp and all the Pro Categories and they seem to do well. That's real drag racing!!! If we want to save the sport IMO we need to go back to the old days allowing aftermarket parts for blocks and heads. Quit this index stuff do away with all the timers and get back to driving the cars.:rolleyes:

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

It outgrew it's own viability, my friend.

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Whoa!

"......it's in Comp and the Pros and they seem to be doing well..."

I don't think so, short fields, a handful of owners.....anyone proposing heads up racing is not thinking this through


One example...the 30 car fields for Hemi shoot outs are over.....take 2 to 3 "all-in-players" and the pretenders stay home when they realize they ain't got no shot

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

And there you have it, short and sweet!

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

Maybe CC/AT should be considered??
Then no need for NHRA classification guide acceptance.

GM is coming out with the 3.6L turbo engine for Caddy in '14.
Thanks
RonP

Re: 2012 Camaro in the NHRA Classguide
 

I for one don't agree as driving my Camaro COPO CC/SA is anything but boring .Its put the fun back for me and I can tell you that the fans love it .How do I know ? They ( the fans ) tell it to me whenever I race -- they make it a point to stop and chat with me and take pictures .And they tell me its neat watching the big handicap starts against the traditional stockers .All that and its made my heart pump fast like I'm twenty - two again .Boring ? ? ? Not a chance .................