Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

I would almost bet money on the big crowd watching. LOL!

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Gary,
It's hard for the new car guys to believe that there are people who are not as enamored with these cars as they are. I don't know if or when the new cars will run but I can tell you I'll be in the pits thrashing to qualify. Are you and or Barry going this year?

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

First my wife paula and I will be running our other camaros in stock the old fashioned way and having a blast.Next however when we ran Top Stock the stands were packed.Packed ------did you hear that packed!And we had a ball.You may not think there will be fan interest but i can't tell you the number of calls and E mails I have received asking if I got my car yet.
I think the big 3 were spot on developing these cars.I was just a little shaver when the muscle cars first appeared but I can tell you the warmth from the fire they created lasted for years and indeed judging from the number of those cars still in demand and racing I would say that fire has not gone out yet.But its time for a jump start and this factory deal is just that jump start.Just the excitement that has been generated from those of us who either have the Fords or Mopars or are waiting for the COPO was a charge this year already.
As for you fellas who are not part of this and don't care to be don't knock it.Its racing so its all good.If you want to have a beer or a hot dog while we are racing I suspect that there will not be any long lines to slow you down since the fans will be in their seats watching the factory showdown.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

I agree with you. The problem is that some of the people complaining are used to being the king. Now that they are getting dethroned by the new cars all they want to do is complain about them and think that because they do not have interest, no one else does either. They are wrong in my opinion.
Chuck

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

I agree 100%,I will be in the stands for sure.I can get a hot dog and beer a home!

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Judging by your avatar only, there is some small chance that you will ever have to deal with them.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Bruce , I've had to deal with them, ran Don Fezell in class at Charlotte last year. No, I wasn't in his zip code at the finish line. The problem is everyone thinks you can buy one of those cars and are instantly fast. That's the furthest thing from the truth. It takes a lot of work to make those cars fast. It also takes a lot of money. If you want to know how I know, it's because I drive probably the only other 08 cobra jet stick car in the country other than Don. I'll also tell you I never had any interest in stock until I started driving this car.
Chuck

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Chuck,
Right off the trailer your car should out run all of the older cars. The work and expense probably comes when you have to compete against each other.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

I would probably watch it if I were already there, time permitting.
I'd have to kinda squint my eyes a little, and imagine I was watching A/FX Eliminator.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Which is what they should have called it.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

That's where you are wrong. First time on the track it was a 10.60 car. After gathering data and working on it we were running 10.20's. More work and changes we got it into the nines. A lot more work and changes we picked up more but we still aren't near as fast as the top runners. Making any car fast takes more than what's under the hood. The newer cars have better suspension which is a big part of the package. I grew up in the muscle car era and have owned quite a few in my lifetime. I love the old cars, but time has brought improvement. As I'm sure you can tell, I run super gas and super comp as well. Over the years I have built better cars with better chassis in order to get the power I make applied to the track better.
Chuck

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

That's strange. Some folks buy these cars and run excellent numbers the first time out.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

You have to remember. This is an 08. It took awhile for the first ones to get figured out. After that what was learned was applied to the 10's and 12's so they didn't have to go thru the steep learning curve. It's also a stick car. Takes time to get the right combo for the clutch. Automatics are easier to get fast with all the technology in converters and gearing. If you know what's been tried and tested before you ever make it to the track you have a big advantage to be able to go fast. Like I had said before, I only know of one other guy running an 08 stick car and I can promise you he has spent a ton of money and a lot of testing to get to where he is at.
Chuck

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

If Top Stock was so great and had soo much Interest and spectator appeal Then why did you have to pay to have it run? not many understand this

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

There was one in 2009 from Kansas in A/S at the Cordova points meet. I don't think the person driving and owning it ever put a wrench on it, but he went 10.70s if I remember correctly. He was granny shifting it to the point where you could count between gear changes so there was a ton left in a better trans clutch situation. I don't think the early ones got a decent stick trans in them.
Chuck, which race did you have to race Fezell in your CJ?
Ronzello had the first one out there in A Stick I think.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Thats my point. Even with someone spot on at shifting, the car isn't going from 10.70's to as fast as they are now. It took a lot of work to make them fast and like I said, the people with the newer ones had the benifit of things being worked out before them.
James, it was at Charlotte last year.
The first one out was at the Winternationals in 09 that Calvert won with a stick car. It was a mid 10 second car, and we all know Calvert can drive a stick
Chuck

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

It took nearly 40 years to get a real production car into the 9's. That took hard work!

The CJ's were in the 9's in 2 years. That's not hard work. You may think that is hard work but by Stocker standards it is not. And you'll never see a real production Stocker in the 8's. Of course, we now have all these mid class bogus cars as well.

Edit: Actually the first CJ in the 9's came in just it's second start at the Phoenix National in 2009.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

There have also been a few advancements in technology since 1969. And a lot of rule changes that allowed a lot of aftermarket parts into Stock. If you are building a Stocker you build by the current rules. I don't know of a single Stock racer that hasn't updated their cars in one way or another as the rules changed.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

But the advancements didn't come all at once in a nice, tight, little package did they?

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Thank you Ford for an incredible car!

After 48 years the Mustang is still running strong!

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

So you didn't use any of those advancements when you built your Corvette?

I am building a 2010 Camaro. I am doing pretty much everything that the rule book allows. It wouldn't make sense to do anything else.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

His Corvette has a VIN and met emission standards at the time it was introduced. None of the factory ringers could meet emission standards at the time they were introduced with their compression ratios, throttle bodies, camshaft lifts, etc....

No VIN = SS or AFX.

Edited to add: Different strokes for different folks. If a racer is pleased with themselves for qualifying at the top of the sheet and walking away from the other cars in head's up situations then more power (AHFS :D ) to them. I am personally more competitive than that and want to feel like I actually accomplished something.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Exactly, I wonder how many guys tow there cars to the track with a 1969 1/2 ton chevy pickup that gets 4 mpg doubt any of them lol. Technology is way better now adays that when it was then, its just the way it is. I love the old cars and love the new cars. I think its great the big three are involved, there is alot of people that had no idea what stock eliminator was till these cars came out its made the fan base stronger for a fact. I guess if you don't like the new cars you don't have to watch em. I know i'll be watching! As for racing the new cars heads up not sure what to say ,but I do know one thing a 69 396 375 hp camaro should never run in the 9's STOCK either lol. I think the cars are cool for the class and I understand the older guys not liking them I do get that,but on the same hand its just like anything else new it'll catch up eventually, remember no one thought the ls1 motors were fair either. The new cars probably should have been put in there own class but its just the way it is for now.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

No they didn't, but if you were to build a 69 camaro today, you would certainly be a lot faster than the guys in 69 were. You would have those 40 years of data and advancements at your disposal.
Chuck

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Well stated!!!!

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

I am wondering, if Chevrolet gave Bruce Noland a new COPO Camaro, would he race it?

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Were emission controls ever required on a Stocker? When Chevrolet built the 427 Corvettes and Camaros they were aimed at racing. They were also cutting edge for their time. Not your average daily driver!


Which rule book are you reading? Lot's of Stockers have been built from non VIN cars.


I said it a long time ago on here, the AHFS will sort these cars out over time. A new car should be faster than an old car. Why would the factories take a backwards step? Who would buy a slow car from them? I am glad that the factories have come back to Class racing.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

The only thing faster about the new cars are the bogus soft HP ratings. Put them in the correct class and nobody will mind them. It takes ahfs a long time to sort them out, the way guys are sand bagging. How many are loosing class and heads ups to bogus HP factors? Like drag packs that started out in H/SA? Now in what, A/SA? Makes formally slow guys, and new guys suddenly faster. Goes to their heads, then they cry every time they get some HP, and want to quit when they loose too much of the bogus advantage they had originally, like Mr newhemi.
Guys talk about how much work they take, like they are as hard to make run fast as the older cars. As if they had to do as much work as everybody else. I'm not going to mention who, I like the guy, but at Joliet was told by a really fast SS guy how his Mustang still had factory pistons, rods, crank. He said the engine had never been out of the car. I know it was raced last year, and so far this year. I don't know about the year before. I met him at Indy last year. He is very fast. Heck, my engine has been redone twice since I first saw his car. Yeah, they are really tough to make run.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

I thought that was what this whole thread was about. Them in their own class racing each other.
Chuck

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

That's where they belong, all the time.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

They run in AAA, AA, and BB. How many of the older cars are in those classes ?
Chuck

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

In SS most of them have gotten no HP. Those are the ones I care about. Drag packs running on 2 barrels and NA Mustangs with bogus HP rated, de-factored crate engines.
Your talking about blown Mustangs. Those aren't the only bogus underrated engines.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Ok, lets work with a little better reading comprehension this time. I clearly stated "His Corvette has a VIN and met emission standards at the time it was introduced. None of the factory ringers could meet emission standards at the time they were introduced with their compression ratios, throttle bodies, camshaft lifts, etc...."

Translation....well hell, it is pretty clear the way I wrote it. It wasn't written in the manner you attempted to twist it. Even the examples you listed met the emission standards at the time they were introduced. Try again.

The rule book I read is the NHRA (and IHRA when I race there). I also read the stocker classification guides. Name one car before the Mustangs in 2008 and the Dragpaks in 2009 that were allowed in the guide that weren't cars with a VIN. Mebbe you can name one. I am curious to know. All cars I am aware of that didn't come with VIN went into Superstock ie: Hemi Darts & Cudas. Building a wrecked car or a salvaged car as a Stocker isn't the same as a manufacturer introducing it to the NHRA to be placed in the guide.

Let the AHFS sort them out in their own class. There are several of the factory ringers that are in the lower classes slowly causing havoc on their way up. But as I said before, if you get satisfaction out of winning that way then more power to you.

It does nothing for me.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Kevin , I think you are wrong on the 08 mustang engines . You can buy the same engine in a 08 stocker for your street car and it will pass emissions with headers and a street legal exhaust and it came in a GT500 from the factory. It is a true factory engine that anyone can buy from ford and but in their car .

Now the Copo engine might be different from the spec I have seen

Jeff , leave the little guy alone , his ego bruises easily

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

I'm not sure that reading comprehension is my issue, but, I guess you could be right. The point that I was trying to make is that I didn't know that those guidelines had ever been in the rule book. Again I could be wrong. But, I race by todays rules and the new factory cars are legal.


That's easy. The 1998 LT1 Firebird that you race. By your own definition it doesn't meet your rules. It was never built so it could never get a VIN or pass emissions. I have built three 1998 LT1 cars. They are a lot of fun. They are in the guide. So, they are legal.


I agree. At the time that I purchased my first LT1 in 1995 I did so because it looked like the best new car combination available. It turned out to be a great combination. I feel the same way about the new cars. My Formula is getting pretty old, so I am moving on to something new.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

The point of the emmissions/VIN comment is that it isn't just a technology advancement that is making these factory ringers more competitive than the cars that have been accepted in the guide up to their release. It is that the factories leaned on the NHRA to accept cars to compete with all the other stockers that have components that wouldn't function on the street. That is a stocker in my opinion and it also meets the intent of the rules. Anything beyond that would be factory experimental or a super stocker which is a natural extension of a stocker.

My 1998 LT1 example you are using is weak at best. The engine did meet those emission standards and is no different than any that were in thousands of cars before. There is zero performance advantage of a 1998 over a 1997 or beyond. Can you say that about these new cars? Is there any advantage over their street versions? More compression? Bigger blowers (more compression)? More radical camshafts? Larger throttle bodies?

Yes, the new cars are in the guide. Enjoy your ride. I am sure it will be nice and fast. You shouldn't have to sweat qualifying at Indy or any heads up matches unless it is another of the newer cars. Be careful of what you wish for because you may actually get it. The game you are playing is way more expensive than the one I am.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

On this we are pretty much in agreement. But if the emissions stuff hadn't started to be a factor in 1971. Do you think that the factories wouldn't have continued to push the limits? Pontiac was working on the RA V, Buick on the Stage 2, etc.


You asked for an example of a car without a VIN. As far as performance goes you are preaching to the choir. Of course until recently the LT1 caught as much flack as the new cars on this forum. Funny how things change!


You obviously don't know me. I love to run heads-up and am most often the under dog. We ran a very good Top Stock series in IHRA Division 9 for a couple of years. Anyone who raced with us will tell you that it was fair and fun. Why do you think I am building a B/SA car? I like the idea of some of the other races for the COPO. If I run it in Class it will be in CC or above. Which should be safe for the vast majority of the older cars.

About four years ago I wished for a COPO..........

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

You are right. I don't know anybody named Gump. Best of luck in your racing.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

Sorry, I thought you new who I was.

Daren Poole-Adams (Gizmo on LS1tech)

Best of luck to you too.

Re: Factory Showdown at INDY
 

The answer is No! I can buy one if I wanted but I'm not as brand-sick as some on this board.

Chuck, Gump - a racer would have to be a time traveler to enjoy the same benefits/gifts that the New cars are receiving. This does not include the bogus factors that you enjoy. I know most people don't want to be known for exploiting other racers for their own personal gain. But that is what you are doing with the assistance from nhra of course. And that makes everything all better.