Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

Exactly! If the NMRA ran this class on the west coast, I would be all over it. Great concept. You will begin to see more and more NMRA racers moving Coyote Stock soon.

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

It is a very cool class. High 10s NA without breaking the bank. Sealed engine ~$8k. I hope to see it thrive. Knowing the guys that helped develop the class they had great intentions. FRPP has been supportive of it from my understanding. I would like to have given it a shot. Too much traveling for me and NMRA has worse politics and terrible payouts then the NHRA IMO.

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Ed's is correct but the sport is still popular and for one, I don't want to see it vanish because some people are greasing their pockets and has the band wagon hitch up and ready to leave town. Bret could you elaborate your quote, because I feel that I'm having trouble following the trend you seem to be eyeing. If you mean that people are way too much in the now and not enough in the future than I agree. Anyways, we need Pure Stock at a Divisional entry level, to help bring new blood and let the old fart like myself run. For the people who say leave stock alone, if you have to pay $5.000 for heads than it's not really stock, is it? Bring Pure Stock or even a form of Crate Motor with a claimer program, problem solved. Claude Ruel

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I think we should run Ken Bugaj for President !!!---Keep it simple stupid!!! And glad to see Len still keeps up with Stock--later--Emmett

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I think to run a class this way, you need tech enforcement to take radical steps. Like in NASCAR , they supply the ecu's at the begining of the race. Then they take them back at the end. Maybe a claimer rule for the engines. Guys will take them apart and reseal back up when they are done doing the work. I think the word affordable and heads up can not be mentioned in the same sentence . It's nice to dream!

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

Hi Todd,
You can stop all that with one new rule, No heads up runs other than in class run off's !
I know alot of guy's don't want to hear that, but new people don't want to spend 50 or 60 K
on a car to race,

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

Divison 1 is doing just fine in the "entry level" department. Last two races had 102 and 96 Stockers. Can't speak for the rest of the country but the last thing we need up here is pure stock and/or crate motors.

P.S. If heads-up runs become no more then you'll never see me at another race. Then again, at 27 I guess I'm no longer considered a young guy.

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Who is going to show up Ken? Are we going to make it " only class racers get into the show? How much money are you going to spend on a car that it doesn't matter what it runs or how it runs? What are the rules? Can I run nitrous durring eleminations? Ken, I was at your shop 20 years ago with Matt dropping off your SS engines for your Corvette, and your GT car. You always had fast a beautiful stuff. You are telling me you would be happy racing In a class with no performance? 30k for a cement mixer technology bracket car with a 10" cowl hood? What happend???

QUOTE=KEN BUGAJ;333225]Hi Todd,
You can stop all that with one new rule, No heads up runs other than in class run off's !
I know alot of guy's don't want to hear that, but new people don't want to spend 50 or 60 K
on a car to race,[/QUOTE]

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

To get participation in Stock or any class, you either need to make it appealing by either low costs or a venue that breeds excitement. Stock in it's current form does neither for todays youth as a general rule.

So, you either need more classes, which the NHRA purists say no, we already have too many as it is. Or, you need to kill the costs, remodel the class on the original stock of the 70's. I believe IHRA does have it right, just like the old days of the AHRA, they have a variety of classes that give you a lot of options. On the other hand, they aren't filling the lanes with new racers either.

I can rant about this because, it's really funny. I hear people talk about how terrible it would be for NHRA to allow crate motors. Those same people are running high end aftermarket blocks, aftermarket carbuerators, some are even running aftermarket heads of different variations. Then have the gall to tell us how crate motors tarnish the purity of the class. My point, the crate classes and pure stock are a less expensive way to get involved with the eliminator.

Maybe a "claimer" class would be an idea. The oval tracks do something on this order and it seems to be a successfull concept. Enough of my rambling.

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I cant agree more. I'm 40 and this is why I got into class racing. If they kill heads up, my stable of junk will become street cars. If you dont want heads up then bracket race. The major issue is that tech officials cant make calls and people keep whining for more enhancements.

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X2 Mike!! I'd sell my stuff and that would be the end of me at any NHRA events, or being a member. I'm a young guy that had nothing, no budget, no skill. But my dream was to race stock. My first race was the Federal Mogal race at Leabanon in 97. I made it to the semi final and lost. If I made it to the final I would have had Joe Demarzo heads up. I would have lost by 8 tenths. I accepted that, it was the rules. 8 years later after alot of hard work and some careful money spent, I became competitive . It was a great and rewarding ride. That is the game for the entire existance of this class, that's what I fell in love with. Not bitching because the rules didn't suit me, or people had more money than me.

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I'm with you brother - if I didn't want rules or heads-ups I could go to my local track every weekend and run bracket 2 or super pro or whatever they call it ...........I'll hang up my helmet first - its not what I've learned to do and enjoy - its OK for others but not me ! ! !

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I think some of us are saying "stock" is not entry level

If it were we would not do it - we have learned to much and like to much about

The proof is - NHRA can not do anything to make us quit

I have said it before

"drag racing is a desease - it is an addiction for which there is no cure except dying of old age"

I am doing what I want and I hope my son is - and I hope he can continue do it for a long time after I am gone in some form or another - it is not going to disappear

Ron

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

I'm also with you guys on the heads up runs and rules to follow. Me being 37, I bracket raced S/P and PRO since I was 16. I always love the stock and superstock cars. Watching stock over the years and seeing a 9 inch tired car carry the wheels 100 feet, what is cooler than that! The last bracket race I was at had a about 150 dragsters and 2 door cars and about a 1000 cry babies lol no thanks just not for me. So I turned my camaro into a stocker and for the past 3 years I 've been running stock, and like said above I try and go to the events that have class just to run heads up. Knowing I'll get my *** kicked lol,but I try like hell, it just makes me work harder. Stock is cool and I hope it hangs around for awhile!
Like I always say when they call stock and superstock to the lanes its the best car show I 've ever been too!

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

x4
No heads up ? This aint golf .Stock is entry level just go into Cars For Sale section.
Thats where I found my car. Did good first 4 races .Then at Atco I run into Tex Miller heads up..I think he past me in the wheelie.*** KICKED..Took my beating and been sceawing up heads up ever since.,,As always this post is driven by people who dont have a dog in the fight...

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

And who would that be?
Ken Bugaj ? That's who first mentioned no heads up as a solution.
He doesn't race? His son doesn't race?
Who/what are you talking about?

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you dont too spend a fourtune to race stock you can get a slower stocker and still kick ***

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Enforce the written rules or rewrite the rules. I'd bet there'd be enough people that would come back or bring their kids into it if you got rid of the BS. Please don't tell me to work harder......sorry, I should stay off of the internet.

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

Jim,
Is the Dog in the fight BS directed at me ?
I would hope not.

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It's more than just the price of the cars. There have been plenty of good cars out there for sale under 20 thous. My Brother tried to sell his last year for 15 and there were no takers. He put 3500 into it over the winter and the car is an easy second under in good air. It's a g car. The real cost is getting to and from the tracks and the price of an entrance. Entrance fees are up 4 times what they were when I started and payouts are not even double. Contingentcies have gone backwards. Indy class win last year. 50 dollars from vp that was it. Really !!! Our local Stock/Super Stock organization does a better job promoting sponcers. Just tires and racing gas can keep your walet empty. Lets face it to go to most National Event unless it's in your back yard it cost you an easy g note. Even with that cost we still get blocked from entering some of them without the right grade points. I would have loved to race E-Town. Not many on this board have been to as many NHRA races as I have in the last 25 years. But because I was only able to get a grade of 3 last year I'm blocked. I guess I'm just not a good customer. Ed is also right. Times have changed as far as the kids are concered. My son would rather screw around with his electronics than work on a car. And I don't really want him to get this disease. It takes way to much time and way to much money. But even with all the BS I still really love it. . Barry

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

I see alot of good young drivers in stock here in division 9, but the reality of it is that for the most part they were raised up into it. Don't really think that's what you would call new blood. With that said I look around the pits now and don't see alot of young kids( under say 16 ) running around they're probably in the motorhome playing video games. I don't really see what u call any young gearheads in my area either unless you consider the boys with the imports with the fart can mufflers buzzing down the road. So that could be your new entry level class, import fart can stock- IF/CS

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Any economics majors out there?If so compare the cost of the really fast stockers from back in the golden age in todays dollars.I'll bet there wont be much of a difference.Same for the comparative cost of parts,fees fuel costs etc.It comes down to a new attitude AND
an unwillingness on the part of those in charge to control the costs and conduct of the
races,not to mention knuckling uder to the car manufacturers,TV production companies and malcontents who want any sort of advantagous rule changes.
You can never go back.

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Got my stocker to the races last year at 19. Guess im the only kid that still likes quadrajets lol.

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Good for you - and keep it up ...........BTW , I sure miss Quadra-Jets .....still got a pile somewhere .

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I pulled the plug due to operating expenses...travel, exorbitant entry fees, fuel, and grade points (see, even NHRA is trying to keep the door closed to newcomers...)

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Come on you guys, you would quit if you couldn't go heads up? I think we could ask Nitro Joe and I'm sure he could enlightened us on the chance of havining a heads up race in elimination. Probably in the 7% chance of running someone at a National event. Stock and Super stock is " BRACKET RACING" 93% of the time! So why take this away from new potential racers, I would rather see fast pure street stock cars(with sticky tires a la BFGoodrich which would jump right in as a sponsor for their tires, what better way to help sell their Drag radial street tires) than snowmobiles or Legend cars( I know they pay their way in but snowmobiles in the summer is just weird, Sorry if you practice this style of racing). I would also stop building my Camaro for stock eliminator in a second and buy a new Mustang or Challenger. This would be a great way to bring new blood without discouraging them hearing about all the ways to get around the rule book. I just want someone to tell why it wouldn't work and have a proper argument to defend their position. Claude p.s. 67 post GS with young men like you we might have a chance. Gary, sorry to hear and I feel your pain.

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I think the Legend cars might be cool. I'd rather see that than bone stock cars with drag radials bracket racing. Claude, you are so out of touch with this statement I question if you really like stock racing
Thats great you will stop building your stocker, and buy a brand new car to bracket race. Why not start your own class with the rules you want, and see how many people show up. You think Gary Richards is going to sponsor , and race in your new class? Think anybody will, that has a good car? Or been racing constantly for the last 40 years? Not the guy that raced a few times in 1976, and talking about coming out now before he is to old.
Get a CLUE!


QUOTE=cicero819;333394]Come on you guys, you would quit if you couldn't go heads up? I think we could ask Nitro Joe and I'm sure he could enlightened us on the chance of havining a heads up race in elimination. Probably in the 7% chance of running someone at a National event. Stock and Super stock is " BRACKET RACING" 93% of the time! So why take this away from new potential racers, I would rather see fast pure street stock cars(with sticky tires a la BFGoodrich which would jump right in as a sponsor for their tires, what better way to help sell their Drag radial street tires) than snowmobiles or Legend cars( I know they pay their way in but snowmobiles in the summer is just weird, Sorry if you practice this style of racing). I would also stop building my Camaro for stock eliminator in a second and buy a new Mustang or Challenger. This would be a great way to bring new blood without discouraging them hearing about all the ways to get around the rule book. I just want someone to tell why it wouldn't work and have a proper argument to defend their position. Claude p.s. 67 post GS with young men like you we might have a chance. Gary, sorry to hear and I feel your pain.[/QUOTE]

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

Claude, The threat of a heads up run is what keeps the performance level up, hence the entertainment and appeal of S/SS.
I'm sure you remember, you used to have to win class to race in the eliminator..There were no heads up runs possible at Nationals.
Nowadays, class wins don't pay anything at all most of the time. The big money and emphasis is on the eliminator win.
I f you take away the threat of a heads up, I'm afraid you'd see a bunch of slug 12.20 305 cars and 10.90 Camaros with Pep Boys long blocks in A/SA.. Who wants to see something like that?
What would be the point of spending the extra money on a good engine?
...And don't forget the adverse effect on the few remaining sponsors.

I probably should have named this thread something else. It was not my intention to advocate a change to any current class car.
I was suggesting some kind of entry level deal, possibly within Stock Eliminator.
I like your Pure Stock idea , but it will never fly...Too much tech involved.

How about a late model index deal?
6-8 years old rolling cut off...Car gets too old , you move it up to Stock.
Stock appearing , no hood scoops, no tires sticking out, no down track throttle stops.
13.00, 12.50, and 12.00 indexes
5/10ths pro tree...Deep staging allowed
Charge 'em $100 for a divisional , Winner and R/U Wallys and some cash... (Bracket racers pay $100 now for the Wally races)
Beats the hell out of snowmobiles and dwarf cars,..in my opinion

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Todd, I have a lot of respect for racers such as yourself who has work hard and spent his hard earned money racing on their combination(your GTO) and your new old Firebird but all I'm saying,is make an argument instead of saying that I'm not informed or out of touch on bringing in new people into stock or super stock, I'm looking at this as a minor league or entry level. I'm not saying to bring it at a National level but at the Divisional Level. Todd a lot of stockers are 40 and 50 yrs old, some kids do not even know who made the cars that are being race now. Please a proper response with some thought behind it would be appreciated. If we all do nothing you can be sure to be racing the same white hairs all the time(I belong to the no hair). Maybe Gary Richards might not race in that class but maybe his wife of grand kids might. Thanks. Mark, like usual you have the wisdom, maybe we can vote you in to replace Crampton. I have to explained that I didn't want to touch stock eliminator, I'm all for the way it's set up right now. I understand also that the chance of having a heads up guarantees the quality and effort will be at it's max. I might of made a wrong turn and confused your original post when someone suggested Pure Stock. Mark, what are you working on, still have the Land Shark? Claude

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Just working on something in my mind right now, Claude..I haven't got the official okay from Billy yet . LOL

I had to leave the Land Shark in Ohio..22 years was enough for that project, anyway.

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Thanks Jack. If you want to sell your pile of quads let me know!

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OK, let me take a crack at this. What would you think about leaving Stock as is with a couple of little exceptions. Those being, reinstate all of the FWD classes (AA to H, stick and auto), put more imports in the guide if people want to run them and then soften up on all of the HP factors on the nonturbo cars and make it easy to run under the indexes with them. They could be built cheap, raced cheap and sold cheap and they wouldn't have to be "high tech" to run. I've seen a number of young people who started out in FWD cars because that was what they could afford move up to Stock and SS as permitted. Basically, make the FWDs the "entry level" of the sport. (M.B., feel free to chime in now)

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Yeah, what Billy said.

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How about this for a thought. We already have indexes. What about doing something like the "stock appearing" or "hobby stock" eliminator. Simple rules, no hood scoops, tires must fit inside stock wheel wells, no mini tubs. Full stock interior, allow racing seats, if there are two and have belts. No throttle stops, delay boxes or trans brakes. The only computer controls being what the car has.

You could do the index breaks on either half second of full second breaks. Cap the A index at 11.50, that way, you don't have to have a roll bar in the car. Granted it might be a nightmare to administer and determine how to class cars. Here again, just an idea to kick around. This would be something for the local or divisional level only.

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I work for Nissan, VW is next door. The parking area of these 2 dealers is flooded w Imports, a couple of American cars mixed in. The kids like the Sport Compact cars for the most part, cheap and affordable. Not to step on hallowed ground here but if you want them racing at all, you need a jr. stock or something of that nature.
Billy Nees seems to be onto something. I am w these kids everyday, the 20 to 30 somethings.
But I read a while back on this we in Div. 1 have no problem filling fields of stockers which is why I think a jr. stock program of some sort.

Chris. It actually would help out our economy too, more work n jobs working on cars.

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I agree. We lost a few racers in div 6 when they changed the indexes. We also need to get more of the newer cars in the guide, import and domestic, especially the ones the general public can buy off the showroom floor.

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I think the crate motors were a great idea that got out of hand. I think some form of a spec stock would be something to consider. Pick a oft used body style of each manufacturer (82-92 camaro, fox body, and volare for simplicity. Have sealed crate motors, a list of part number converters, spec trans, spec shocks and tires, limit to off the shelf part number heads, etc. this is not stock as it exists today, but it should put the tuner/driver back into the equation, and the checkbook somewhat out of the equation.

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Just my 2 cents worth.
Most youth only understand Headsup, Shoe Polish, Power Adders, 10.5, etc, etc,etc.
They have Zero Knowledge of Stocker racing. When I had my stockers Kids would come up and always ask how much spray.LOL

Most Jr's go to a long skinny car when it's time to move up.

My point being is I don't know what the answer is.
Chip Johnson

Re: Deconstructing Stock
 

I agree with Billy Nees and Chad you are close to resolving the problem. Unfortunately Chip you are right on but we have all changed, mostly when I see motorhomes with stacking trailers that could solve most banana republics gross domestic income problems.lol Last year racing my front wheel drive Oldsmobile a young person asked me what was wrong with me, racing my street car at the track against race car. I tried to explain to him but unfortunately it went over his head which he was shaking as he was walking away. I'm still not giving up.Claude

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When I go to the local Friday night test n tune sessions I often get asked about my car by young guys. They like how it sounds and the wheel stands. LOL
After hearing how it's Built they always tell me they don't know why I would want to deal with so many rules. It's the "What about me?" generation.