Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

All this makes you wonder how often they have their equipment certified.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Exactly! What's the standard that they use to calibrate the equipment?:confused:


Lew

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Nice post Ron

You know im not a guy who shows up on tuesday for a event that starts friday.. Most races im showing up saturday morning get one hit and im good to go.So i take off work on saturday tow 4hrs too race and the one and only run i make im dq for fuel...this is just stupid.....no fuel should ever fail unless it has been determined it has giving a racer some sort of an unfair advantage...........

joe mocci
m/sa 1424

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

It's hard to define what might give a competitive edge with race gas. Some race gasolines have up to 200 chemicals and compounds.
The race gas manufacturers submit samples of each fuel they would like accepted. Those samples are analyzed and recorded as to color and dilectric constant. There is a tolerance allowed, but the fuel you say you have has to be consistent with the known samples.
It's one more way to try to keep the competition level.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

NHRA and IHRA both post an accepted fuels list. It isn't easy to get on those lists, but a number of companies have. And there are also a number of companies that have been rejected. Some of the companies on the lists have only a few legal gasolines listed. Some like Renegade have an entire line of race fuels that are legal. There's no reason at all to pay crazy money for one brand of race fuel when another will perform just as well or better.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

There are reasons why race gas fails fuel checks. And one of the rarest reasons is test equipment or calibration. Handling of race gas by the racer and the supplier is the single most important reason for problems in fuel check. I've posted these before, but here they are again for reference.

Don't store race gas anywhere that it sees direct sunlight or where it receives large swings in temperature, inside a race trailer for example.
Don't ever allow containers of race gas to sit on the ground, concrete,asphalt,or metal. Always place containers on wood planks or wood pallets.
Cap race gas containers as soon as possible and keep them sealed tightly. The vapors you see escaping when the lid is off, or when pouring from one container into another are called light ends and you want them in the container, not floating away.
Never mix old race gas and fresh race gas if you want to be sure to pass fuel check.
Purchasing race fuel in sealed containers is the best way to make sure your fuel is fresh. Purchasing from a tank is fine as long as the tank is properly maintained.

Some racers don't do any of these things and still pass fuel check, but better safe than sorry.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

[QUOTE=Mike Croley;347047]It's hard to define what might give a competitive edge with race gas. Some race gasolines have up to 200 chemicals and compounds.
The race gas manufacturers submit samples of each fuel they would like accepted. Those samples are analyzed and recorded as to color and dilectric constant. There is a tolerance allowed, but the fuel you say you have has to be consistent with the known samples.
It's one more way to try to keep the competition level.[/QUOT


Mike your post is well taken......but keeping the competition level really only applies in a heads up race....why should you be bounced from a race when we are using shoe polish....the fuel had no bearing on the outcome of the race!!!

joe

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

I'm not sure of all the reasons for the sanctioning bodies checking fuel in shoe polish racing, but i can think of a couple more possibilities that don't include performance. First might be keeping costs under control. There are some wildly expensive chemicals you can add that will up the performance. Another possibility is safety. Many of the compounds and chemicals that can be added to race gas are very toxic, not only for the racer through skin contact but for the spectators inhaling the fumes.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

You can give all of the excuses to defend the feloneous testing you want but when you buy it at the track and use it and it does not pass - it is the test which fails not your fuel

Everybody on here knows how to try to keep their fuel from failing but it still fails sometimes for no explainable reason - except the test is flawed - has been that way for many years

"all kinds of ways to CHEAT" - That is exactly what NHRA is saying you are cheating by trying to use "doctored" fuel even when you know you are NOT

FIX THE TEST

What do you think they are looking for - they do not know - they just have a job to do - stick in the meter - accuse you of cheating - have you waste your money and dump the fuel

This thread would not exist if the test was accurate and only true cheaters were tossed and I mean not just their fuel - the reason they don't toss the person is because they no the test is bogus

I have not and will not ever cheat but NHRA has accused us on a couple of occassions of having ILLEGAL fuel

Enough said

Sorry but this is a sore point for me

Ron

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

I have raced stock elim every year since 1974, never failed fuel check, I am not the best storer or handler of fuel. I buy fuel at my local vp dealer, the track, a friend who sells it etc.

The only time I remember being close was with some c11 that was 1 1/2 years old

I currently use c12 in both my cars

I really don't think this is as bad a situation as it is being made out to be.

The problems that have happened are rare and correctable, someday it will probably happen to me and I will deal with it. Keep fuel check the way it is That's my preferance

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Andys dad, just because they fail you at fuel check doesn't mean they;re accusing you of cheating. I've had several freinds fail fuel check, never once while I was there were they accused of cheating, they were simply told their fuel did not pass. Most all of them politely asked, Why what's not right about it? Most everytime I witnessed they stated it may be old, perhaps in the cell to long, cross contamination ect. never once did I hear a word about cheating. Now years back when there were a few racers running "enhanced" fuels, they were told their fuel was deemed illegal, using that word..."illegal". To me that's being accused of cheating. Just my take on it. Joe

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

My humblest appolgies to the forum members

There is nothing wrong or incorrect about the fuel check process

It does not need to be changed ever

Sorry for my intrusion


Ron

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Dear Jeff, the topic is fuel check .... please dont assume what i think about tear downs ,setting records or who qualifies where i could care less.Not that i should speak for anyone but i would think Dan Fletcher,Lang brothers , Biondo's etc.all have one thing in common.,there all great BRACKET RACERS .Like it or not thats what we r doing bracket racing,and i dont want to be bounced for fuel during a BRACKET RACE.

joe mocci
1424 m/sa

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

So the fuel check test is flawed? How is it that 99 cars can pass fuel check and 2 fail?

The 2 that fail have a problem, not the testing procedure.

What's the point of checking fuel? To make sure no one is using illegal chemicals like Klotz or Powermist. Yes they do have a test for that too. And I have been told the test does work. Just ask anyone that works fuel check.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Joe,
I'm the same way, Carson is still in school and I work too much. When I showed up Saturday morning at Noble for the D4 race I had a hunch I was only getting 1 hit so I got a sample cup from the tech guys and had my C12 checked before I ran to make sure I was good to go. The NHRA staff has always been friendly and helpful when it comes to fuel check, pass or not. Running C12 in a hot climate it tends to NOT pass as some of the lighter compounds evaporate off if it has been left in the car for a week or more. The Tech guys know this and have been very understanding, but not to the point where they allow it for competition if it doesn't fall in range. I have also learned that not all C12 is equal from the dealers as far as testing goes. I try to buy my fuel at the track so I can point my finger at somebody on location if there is a problem.

Another thing to consider is that if your fuel goes stale, the performance falls off as well. I have no problem with the fuel check if it keeps people from trying something dangerous or illegal. I have failed fuel check enough that my golf cart, generator and mower all run on C12, and I have never felt like NHRA was accusing me of cheating either.

My .02
Tracy

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

"Not that i should speak for anyone but i would think Dan Fletcher,Lang brothers , Biondo's etc.all have one thing in common.,there all great BRACKET RACERS .Like it or not thats what we r doing bracket racing,and i dont want to be bounced for fuel during a BRACKET RACE."

Joe, The performance aspect of stock and super stock make them the popular catagories that they are. Without the performance part, it would be a bracket race and would be nowhere near as popular. The names you mention are certainly great racers, and we could all learn from them. They also have dealt with fuel check and I don't remembering them getting bounced.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

I went to the Cordova Division 5 race on Saturday.One run and then into eliminations.Right after I teched in,I went to fuel check to check the fuel BEFORE the run.This is a good idea if you only have ONE qualifying run to help prevent a DQ.At least you have a little time to try and do something rather than failing after the run.(Fuel passed fine)


I went to Brainerd with fuel that just passed fine a few days earlier at Cordova and the fuel was borderline.

I found this odd,so I asked how the other cars with Sunoco Purple were checking.I was told that out of 65 cars,I was the ONLY car running that fuel.

I just bought some new fuel jugs thinking maybe I have a problem there.If that doesn't work,then the problem is with Sunoco or the testing equipment.

When you have had success with a particular brand of fuel,you really don't like changing unless you have run out of options.

I'm almost out of options.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Quote: I found this odd,so I asked how the other cars with Sunoco Purple were checking.I was told that out of 65 cars,I was the ONLY car running that fuel.

I just bought some new fuel jugs thinking maybe I have a problem there.If that doesn't work,then the problem is with Sunoco or the testing equipment.

When you have had success with a particular brand of fuel,you really don't like changing unless you have run out of options.

I'm almost out of options.

It's funny, because I buy my Sonoco Purple from a station near a track down here, It sat in my car for nearly a year. I went to fuel check, the NHRA tech asked what was I claiming, I told him Sonoco purple. The fuel was almost clear with no color, but it passed. The fuel guy told me to add some new so that it got it's color back to purple. I have not failed a fuel check ever since I went to Sunoco. When I was at the PRI show in Orlando, Fl, I asked how long the shelf life of the fuel was, they told me that it was 2 years in a proper container.

Casey Miles
248H "F" NHRA Stock!

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Bingo!!!!! I think you have narrowed the problem down to Sunoco Purple since other fuels seem to be passing. If racers with jugs of older Sunoco Purple can pass and those with new drums of Sunoco Purple do not....the answer looks pretty evident.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

I in no way suggested you were wrong on questioning the validity of the testing procedures. I merely stated they are not accusing you of cheating if you fail fuel check. I do however stand by my statement that if you're having trouble passing with a paticular brand of fuel try another brand. I buy my fuel by the 55 gallon drum, I realize some cannot or don't care to purchase such a large quantity but I like to have some control over how it's stored and how old it actually is. I'm sorry if my comments offened you. Joe

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Dave, it does seem to be a bigger problem down here with the high heat and humidity.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

I would vote for random checks during qualifying and only for heads up runs in eliminations, but as someone said earlier, sometimes its not done on a heads up run. EVERY TIME there is a heads up run in eliminations there needs to be scales and fuel check. I remember winning a late round heads up one time in Atlanta years ago, and I had gotten out to actually push the car to the scales, 'cause I knew I'd be dead on and didn't want to burn a drop of gas. When they started motioning me by, I didn't agrue, I just hauled ***, lol.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

You probably sweated out the difference. :)

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Its not really a "BINGO" since we race two cars and use the same fuel.

Fuel check has never been a problem at a Division race,but I have been to a couple of additional National events (Bristol and Brainerd) and ironically,those were the places where the fuel was "borderline".EVERYWHERE else,NO problem...either car. (same fuel)

How can you explain going to a Division race with good fuel,going to a National event with "borderline" fuel,and then to a Division race with good fuel all in a few weeks time?

Would you say "BINGO",this fuel is no good?

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

I have been away from class racing for quite a few years so I`ll start from the beginning of my recent experience ,right before the "Dutch Classic" last year I was given the opportunity to borrow a car for the race,the car had sat under a cover outside for about 1 year it had approx. 1/2 tank of C12 in it.

The car needed some minor work and and we did not have a lot of time to get it ready, Dennis Chapman (The cars Owner) Thought we should drain the fuel and add fresh to be sure it would pass fuel check,to make a long story short I did not drain it but brought some empty jugs along just in case,I also purchased 5 gal.s of fresh C12, Prior to the 1st. Qualifying pass I ran the car over the scales and had the old and new fuel checked,both passed!

One thing that Dennis told me to do was a soon as your done drawing the sample from the car was to cover the container with the palm of your other hand as you walk it over to the table,I have not seen this mentioned and I don`t know if it matters but I have not had a problem with fuel check.(Checked 8 times this year)

Fast forward to last weekend at Englishtown we set the C/FS record, as many of you know when you set the record you are given a tech card with the car weight and fuel test #s and the engine is sealed,then on the back up run the weight and fuel numbers are are recorded again,here`s the thing that struck me funny, the same fuel was in the car, we did not add a drop after the 1 st. run but the fuel check numbers on the card were different ! It passed both times but I wonder why there was a difference a few hours latter? Maybe temperature has something to do with it?

With fuel cost being what it is I do think that if fuel checks lower then it should you should be allowed to run it. Just my opinion!:)

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

There are a number of chemical additions to race gas that would make it test "lower" than spec but would increase performance. Meaning that a fuel could be off spec because it's old, because it's contaminated, or because it's been doctored.
Renegade Racing Fuels were just added to the accepted fuels lists this season and every grade submitted was very carefully tested by NHRA to be sure the spec sample was representative.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

After reading many of the post on this topic the conclusion is obvious.The gas companys are providing us with fuel that has a shelf life of somewere between a year and a day.Well maybe its my fault i didnt hold my hand over my cup during fuel check.Or worst then that I let the sunlight hit it or I forgot to make the sign of the cross when im fuel the car up,that must be it.We are paying a premium for a product and when that product doesnt do what its suppose to do YOU did something wrong.

Joe Mocci
1424 m/sa

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Fix the test - the fuel check guys do their very best to help us but they do not make the rules if you show up as a DQ on a run - YOU ARE ILLEGAL - whether they say that or not - ask any one in any sport what DQ means

They do not know what they are testing for and the TEST IS FLAWED - it is not the few guys who know what they are doing and occasionaly - seemingly randomly are accused of cheating without using the word - I say throw them out of the race and then more of you guys would get it and tell NHRA to FIX THE TEST - the reason they don't kick you out is they know the TEST IS FLAWED

I suppose if they told you - if you roll up one pant leg above the knee when you walk your fuel over you will pass - 85% you guys would do it and believe it - LMAO

THE TEST IS FLAWED

Ron

BTW - a higher number does not mean more power just like a low number does not mean less power - Geez you guys get a grip - learn what they are testing for specifically and how the test actually works

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Heads up should be weighed and fuel checked every time , other than a heads up I dont care if the guy im racing is 1000 pounds light and runs nitromethane ,actually I would prefer he did both.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

x2

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

I'm talking Comp Eliminator here but I've been fuel checked at the entrance to the lanes before a qualifying attempt. Consider that as a possibility.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

I guess you and I are the only ones this has ever happened to, Dan. It's happened to me at least two or three times, both on the winning and losing ends.

What's to stop somebody from checking if they have the scales blocked off before they have a heads-up race and taking out a hundred or so pounds before they go up to the lanes?

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Properly cared for, race gas has a shelf life of approx. 2 years unopened. After being opened it's half of that. It can still be used, it just might not have the performance that it did when fresh.
Anytime the racer plays a part in the fuel check process, then it's up to the racer to be certain he's doing his part correctly. You should use a very clean container for the sample. You should cover the sample to keep out contaminants. .You should always keep the sample out of direct sunlight.
As for paying a premium for a product that doesn't do what it should, change brands.

Re: Fuel Check What's the point???
 

Racing gas will go bad if exposed to the sun, same reason that the sun rays can over time make a tire rot or kill a good paint job. The sun separates the lead from the fuel, it's ultraviolet rays will come through lighter colored jugs. Vp use to recommends red colored jugs, the darker the better. If you can buy VP 5-gallon fuel jugs for sale at most races do it. 55 gallon drums are the best since they're lined with Teflon but ot always feasible. Remember keep the fuel cool, away from the sun and high temperatures.CR