Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

This is an easy problem to solve if we all just let NHRA no that as racers we all agree to let the older cars upgrade their motors to run with the new cars . Better heads , bigger cams , lighter after market cranks , new carbs , spec blowers

or

Weight reductions are all ready given in comp and top sportsman for trans type, n20 vs none n20 , big block vs sm block . Any car 5 -10 years old 100lbs , 11-20 years old 200lbs , 30 plus years old 300lbs . These are easy solutions as mentioned by others

We could fix this and all the cars could run faster if they wanted . You can't hold the new cars back but you can bring the old cars forward with some simple changes

Someone start a petition on the weight break rule , or the part rule I will sign up and I own 2 new cars

Take 300lbs out of John Armstrong's vette and he runs 8.30 just like the CJ and I'm all for it

The parts rule might even bring in more money to class racing from parts companys

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

What's pretty interesting to me is do the racers building/buying these new cars think the NHRA won't in the future accept cars that make their current 100-200K investment obsolete?

What's not to say in another 5-10 years Honda or Toyota becomes the official car of the NHRA and submits ringers with way underfactored combos that puts the current new cars at a disadvantage like the older cars face now?

Maybe people don't think this far ahead, I dunno. Or maybe some are okay with building new cars every few years to take advantage of the favorable hp factors.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Just seems like nobody in Glendora cares ever since Wally died.
It's all about greed. Sad

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Charley with all do respect the win on Sunday sell on Monday went by the way side in the early '70's. I love the new CJ's but I don't believe Ford has seen a measurable increase of sales that they could truly credit the CJ's for... Now, sure the aftermarket parts will always be there for all the hot rodders but again I don't believe Ford has seen a measurable increase in sales of aftermarket parts that they could solely credit the CJ's for... Other than the CJ only items that guys are buying to build their BIW cars with. So lets say there are 100 BIW builds taking place. In the grand scheme of things that's not a drop in the bucket to justify a corporate move one way or the other... other than the marketing side of it. Don't get me wrong I don't blame the manufactures or the car owners as I actually had a '13 CJ Competition Kit on order but cancelled it at the last minute. Again I think the cars are cool and I like seeing the factory involvement in our class but I'm waiting to see how NHRA handles these GM motors in question to see if they hold GM to the same standard they held Ford on the 5.0 motors.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Todd you are correct it is the frustration talking but like you say if it were only 2 or 3 tenths.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

All of that, even losing hundreds of pounds for many, costs a lot of money.

Simple solution is to put the 'new' cars in their own class, maybe make cars 15 years old or older in a 'nostalgia' class.

The NHRA could really work some of this to their advantage. There seems to be more fan interest in SS/AH than any other class and NHRA announcers do talk up a lot of the older cars because of fan interest, among other things. The really neat thing, from a fans perspective, is that Stock and Super Stock are racing categories that are also a car show. Where else do '55 Chevys and '69 Mustangs and New Muscle compete against each other? Very suprised the NHRA hasn't figured out a way to capitalize on this.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Why not just give the new cars realistic HP ratings, with all barrels wide open?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Lets look on the bright side. With this constant development of new products there must be a demand to warrant the investment and offers a decent ROI.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

It's so simple, it couldn't possibly work!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Because sales of the new CJs, and COPOs would come to a halt. ;)

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Guys, if you have a car which is currently not the favored combinations the choices are have fun at the points meets on the dial in, run best you can at nationals to try to qualify OR Move on. Either sell and buy a better combo or ..... retire.
You cannot paddle up stream against the rules.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Oh... We are all in a position to do that! How about what we are doing here like letting NHRA know that they need to do something or less cars will be racing and that's lost revenue for them.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I hope each and every person who was rejoicing and singing the praises of Ford, Chrysler, and NHRA to the heights of Heaven is enjoying this now. All of the sudden, when it is Chevrolet doing it, the Ford and Chrysler fans do not think it is so great. That is priceless. I think it is hilarious. Everyone thought it was just awesome when our 69 Camaros became obsolete at the stroke of a pen. Now, every year, their expensive factory race car will become obsolete at the stroke of a pen. Is it still the best thing since sliced bread? Is it still the thing that will save class racing?

We'll keep our 69 Camaros. We'll keep class racing for a while, at least.

People should really be careful what they wish for. Sometimes it just doesn't turn out to be as great as they think it will.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

No, Bo, we do not. I don't WANT to put an LSx, or anything else in our cars. I like our 396 and 427 engines. I cannot take 300 pounds out of either car, and don't want to butcher them up, either. No thanks.

Here is the solution, real simple. Either it comes with a VIN, is completely street legal, and passes all federal standards for street cars, or it goes in an FX class. Period. It is either a production street car, or it NEVER sees the track as a Stock Eliminator car. EVER.

FX classes, with 1 pound weight breaks, starting at 6.0 and going to 10.0, stick and automatic combined. There is your place to play. Have at it. buy a new car, or a new engine every year if you want. Hell, buy one every race if you want. Buy a dozen if it makes you happy. Get your own class with the rules you want and play in it.

Bo, we all saw what your ideas did to Top Stock, it was ruined inside of 5 years, and you couldn't fill a 16 car field. We neither need nor want that in Stock Eliminator.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Alan , FYI Top Stock was ruined before I got there . I was only involved the finial 3 years of Top Stock . The first year I just raced it , The second year I but 50K as sponsor and did not make the rules . The 3rd year the 8 guys that raced it put up 10k each to keep it alive and we raced and divided up the money . In the finial year of top stock if you won the race it paid 15k in contingency plus race money

As far as LSX vs 396 the finial year we ran top stock under my rules the 396 of Paul Mecure won 3 races , The 440 of Joe Alulise won 2 races and my LS1 won four races . We also took the top 4 cars in the points at years end and raced them off in a 4 car shoot out for the world champ . Mecure broke a transmission , Alulise broke his motor and Bogan about turn his car over in the finials and I blew the tires off but crossed the finish line first to win . Seemed pretty even to me

No car was dominate over the other the old cars were just as fast as the new ones and in fact won more races that year.

So a lot of what you are saying is BS in my book , your old way of thinking is done and if you keep thinking that way you be done as well . I never suggested you but any other motor in your car , only that you be allowed newer parts and weight reduction .

As far as you are concerned you only want to cry on the internet in stead of trying to fix the issues . To fix it you have to think outside the box . I for one like the old cars as much as the new ones and hope that they are given parts or weight reduction so that their owners keep racing .

The main reason Top Stock died was because the fast cars of the past were put on a level playing field and they did not want to race with all things even . Much like you they just wanted to cry

Alan one last thing to date over 450 new factory race cars have been sold in the last four years and other 150 will be sold in 2013 . They are not going away and in a few years will out number the old cars that are still racing

Alan , how many races do you race a year ? I average about 13 a year over the last 4 years and in 2011 I ran 19 and raced from the Gators to the World Finials in Pomona . Funny thing is dont remember seeing you at any of them . But I do see you on here

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

No, Bo, my "old way of thinking" isn't wrong. it's what the class was founded on.

We don't want newer parts, we don't want a weight reduction. First off, if we added anything to the Stock engine, it would be a Super Stock engine, we'd need a roller cam and lifters, to start with, and aftermarket heads, intake, and carburetor to top that off. We've already got roller rockers and aftermarket cranks, not to mention revised heads and intakes. Second, without butchering the car, the only weight I can take out is going to a $7K aluminum block. All we want is new STREET cars factored somewhere close to reality, and factory race cars put in their own class where they belong.

I'm not crying, Bo, I'm stating fact, and reality. Pretty much everything I predicted 4 years ago has come to fruition, plus GM bringing out the Camaro, which was not real likely 4 years ago.

That's really funny Bo, because this year the first thing you did when you parked in Atlanta is come and ask me if we bought a new Camaro, you didn't even shut off your truck. You also saw me a few weeks earlier in Charlotte, in the first round of the class combo. You should probably work on your memory.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I vote Alan for President!!!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

X2 Agreed. And if you really want to escape the HP nonsense, build a weight to cubic inch combo.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Dick, that is a joke.

There is no reason to stand silent and let them steal the sport and the class.

There is another choice: Stand up and speak out for what you believe in.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Whoa Alan,

That same stroke of the pen killed my Max Wedge which now sits unfinished in my garage and at this point I may go back to Nostalgia SS racing.

Everybody yells to high Heaven when their brand gets one upped and everybody has the right to bitch about it. We can't get all wrapped up in brand loyalty when the bigger picture is the survival of our sport.

JimR

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Jim, that is my point. When this first started in 2008, it was all fine and dandy because Ford and Chrysler were getting over on GM. Now the shoe is on the other foot. I said back then it was bad, and I still say so.

I merely used our cars as an example.

Now we're told we "should just take it, or stay home". I don't buy that.

There is not now, nor has there ever been, a need to crap all over all the existing cars and racers just to let the factories play. They created FI classes, they can just as easily create 1/2 to 1/3 as many FX classes.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Judging by the amount of new COPOs for sale on RacingJunk and Ebay that claim to have never seen the track, it seems apparent that the a large part of their respective owners only concern is that their new "collectibles" simply have enough horsepower to make it into and out of their trailer. And here I thought Chevrolet was only gonna let documented racers purchase them, lol...

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Alan, that's crap. I, Dale Aldo (Mopar guy) and Jesse Kershaw (Blue Oval Guru) always agreed very publicly it is better with all three manufactureres there. Don't get so far out there with your comments. Bow Tie has always been there, just a little late getting it done. I also proposed NHRA take 5% off everything in Stock 2007 and older. That didn't get any traction either. Speed up the old cars, it's what everybody wants anyway. It's better with all three of us out there. Almost all the cars are are out of the old classes and don't bother anybody but each other. And when you are putting shoe polish on the glass, what the hell does it matter anyway. I have singlehandedly managed to move myself up 4 classes. I have presented proposals to get even more cars out of the way of the old cars. Who knows, they haven't said no. And I will go back to my old statement, where was all this concern when I raced my 69 Super Bee. It's ok to beat my brains out then, but now it's a sin that my brains ain't gettin beat out. Maybe the Chuck Rayburn rule should apply; 'If you ain't raced in 2 years, you got no vote'. And to some of the guys that have quit 'because of the new cars'. Really great. Quit what you like so much and punish yourself. Make yourself sit in a corner with a dunce hat on. What has happened is the manufacturers have taken what the racing community has developed and cast it into the new cars. They are efficient, dependable, fun to drive and all that stuff. Just look at any new car powerplants somewhere between 4 and 10 cylinders, there is so much racing tech in them and that is why they do so well. Hell, I'm getting lost here. Too much coffee again. Racin season better hurry. The reason for the cars on ebay and racing junk are legal. All the factories had problems with the dealer agreements hence the cars were sold thru dealers. Even though there are no VIN and were sold as parts, but you know what happens when lawyers get involved. The original idea was racers only, which would have been better.

LS HP Numbers
 

Where is GM's official combo's and HP ratings? I have looked on NHRA...nothing has been posted, that I can find?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

These cars where built with all the latest racing technology, highly ported cylinder heads and everything to make these cars fast, and all that technology is what is currently being ran in Super Stock. So how in the world should any of these cars be allowed in stock eliminator is beyond me. Trust me when I say know one loves this sport more than myself, but these cars should really be in there own class. I really want to get my 67 camaro stocker back out, not sure why I should even be considering it with ford and chevy's new crate motors. If I do I believe the only way possible is to put a stick in it to stay away from them.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

This is the crux of the matter: these cars were never on the street nor could they be tagged and just like the '68 Darts and Cudas they should be in SS or in their own class.

In '62-'66 Ford and Mopar built cars that went straight to FX, gas or MP because they were not street legal and were purpose built drag cars......why are the new cars any different?

Put them into their own class....FX, Factory stock, or SS....not in stock!

JimR

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Just imagine Toyota trumping in with one of their NASCAR power plants with factory turbo and NOS passing assist options

FX or whatever designation is the answer.....let 'em eat

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Jeff, how about simply putting realistic HP ratings on the new "crate engines", all three brands. (all 4 barrels connected and wide open) The rest of us aren't the problem. No need to change everybody else's ratings, or weights. We aren't the ones screwing everybody else over in class or heads up pairings.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

100% dead-on. Why adjust 90-95% of the cars in Stock, to fix the incorrect 5-10%?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I thought the SS guys didn't want the new cars in their class either.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Not with those bogus HP ratings.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

SS/JA sounds about right......

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Why not rate all engines at what they actually make and treat both new and old combinations fairly?

NHRA has all the runs with all the engine combos, how fast they ran, and how heavy the cars were. Get the actual horsepower of each run and then average that horsepower for that engine combo. It could be done in minutes with an Excel formula. I’m sure it would be more exciting for everyone if they could advertise real horsepower numbers. Considering a Stocker makes roughly 1.7 times the rated horsepower to go a second under I am guessing the class weight breaks would have to change dramatically. 4lbs class anyone?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

There are both Mustangs and DPs there, and others.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Ed I was hoping you won that mega lotto the other day. Remember when you told me if I won the lotto I'd buy one of each and run the s%&t out of them every week until they could only run .90 under wide open? LMAO

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

The fact is the new cars are no where near out of the way of the older cars. Just visit the guides if you can't understand this problem. I'm tired of hearing this lie.

What we have here is a case of racers taking advantage of fellow racers with nhra's assistance. Just because nhra is a corrupt organization does not mean that the new car racers have to follow along. It would be refreshing to see the new car racers get together and seek their own classes through nhra. The new car racers trample the older cars enroute to class finals and then have to run each other anyway. Crass selfishness is truly an ugly disease. And impossible to disguise. We see it for what it is.

nhra and the OEM's aren't going to stop until there are only three body styles left.

I've recently heard that there is a supplemental complaint being filed against nhra and the OEM's. Something to do with nhra providing a service to the OEM's rather than behaving like a legit not for profit sanctioning body. Who knows how all this will end.

Greg and Alan are right on the money!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I currently have a proposal into NHRA for just that. A/FX and B/FX, basically blown and unblown which would remove a lot of the cars, but they would still be in stock with their own index. If you hit them, it would be shoe polish to shoe polish. Hopefully it will get some traction. See, I'm on yall side. Yall do know Bob Dennis put up $25K to each manufacturer to help get the heat off of him. Just thought I would mention that. That's an idea, call it the BD approach. Find a real sleeper out there and run it. Old car, go fast, nobody ever looked at it, yep Bob Dennis approach. Sorta like the LS1 Corvettes, nobody knew. This is gonna be a long off season.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

And, I would.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Bruce, I have found your sleeper; A 38 Hudson Hornet Fastback, inline 6 cyl, 578 CI, Red Diamond, factored @ 200 hp, makes over 900 lb Tq. Already accepted by NHRA. They were only available in Red color. Carb looks like a bucket, but Quick Fuel has an accepted piece. I can't be much more help that that. Runs U/SA, and Capt Jack already has the prototype. Anybody know what a Red Diamond is? Hint, you gotta be old.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Sounds like something you would ask for but undercover of course!