Re: How competitive are you?
 

Lol Drag Racing is not dying. People need to stop being so melodramatic. :D

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Another thing. There must be a lot of Bubbas, Jim Bobs, and John Boys, because circle tracks are a dime a dozen, and mostly full every night. Good thing they're not as intellectually superior like us, they'd figure out it ain't worth it.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Open your eyes and look around at the car counts......and the number of tracks that were once packed with weekly racers now having very low car counts.

NHRA events with very low car counts...

I was at many races over the years with huge fields in all categories....

I live in an area where car counts have always been large...

They have dwinddled to numbers so low tracks struggle to stay open or in the case of my closest track......closed after 50+ years of operation......

Once a track closes it is very unlikely anything new will come along to replace it........

So I don't think I am being melodramatic.....just calling it like I see it the last few years....

and I started racing nearly 50 years ago so I have seen all the era's good and bad....

I will say things looked bleak once before in the oil embargo era and the sport bounced back bigger than ever......hopefully that can happen again but it ain't happenin right now,,,,,,

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Dirt circle tracks have closed up all over the country. I still have friends doing that. It's still more car handling and driver than killer heads, expensive ultra light rotating assemblies, cams that kill valve springs, extreme RPM, etc. Used to pack in over 6000 spectators here at Tulsa every Saturday night, about that many 100 miles away at Oklahoma City on Friday nights. We used to run both every week, plus a regional points series on Sundays. All gone now. Has been for years. Tracks are still closing.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Drag racing in general has gone through some major changes over the past 25 years. When T.V. Coverage was great everyone wanted to be a drag racer thus the influx of racers. Once they found out it is not all glamorous and how low the payouts really are compared to the costs many of them have gone to different hobbies. Drag racing was built on innovation and the ability to make equipment exceed its expectations. NHRA only cares about the sportsman racer when it needs money. The Fuel cars are there show, and that is what they cater to. IHRA used to be great for the sportsman racer, but over time has also gone through changes and now being owned by an entertainment company nothing less is expected. Bracket racing is done for the love of the sport, the people who show up week in and week out are there because they love to race their cars, while a larger payout could bring more car s, it really wont change much about bracket racing.

The idea of Top/Stk is something that I have seen thrown around on these boards for years, with little to NO support or interest from the racers who it is intended for. The best way to get something going for true manufactures heads up racing is a manufactures challange type series. Pit the new Mustangs against the Copo Camaro's, and the Mopars. All of them seem to be int he same realm of E.T and it will truly showcase the original concept of win on Sunday sell on Monday...

Trying to adjust rules and combine current class structure will only discourage the current racers more, and cause even more of them to park or worse yet sell their cars. Now if a local track wants to run a Stk/SStk combo race allow all racers to run off of the current indexes and give a decent payout for the entry fee I am sure you will see a good turnout. The only way to get spectator count up for these types of races is EDUCATION.... As racers we need to be doing more to educate the casual fan on what it takes to race these types of cars, and what it takes to win...

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Everyone is missing the point. Bracket racing has no crowd appeal. I have nothing against it, but the facts, are the facts. The crowd left, when break-out racing came to pass. The reason the pros are all they show, is because it's the only thing the crowd understands. Remember, I was there in the seventies, mostly as a spectator. I was there when it died. It is what it is, and will never ever, come back. The new stuff is too expensive, and no one really cares, but the owners of said cars. It's over boys, the excitement from the crowd part, that is. I was at Eddyville, and Bethany when there might be only 50 cars, and always 1,000 to 1,500 spectators weekly. I was there next, when there were 100, to 150 cars, and three people. It's just how it is. Bubba, and Jim Bob came every week to no break-out racing. I seen it.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

No you won't (at least not where I live). I've been doing this exact same thing locally (western and central PA and eastern OH) since 1999. Only one race ever (in 1999 at Quaker City) drew more than twenty cars (Hagerstown MD draws well, because of the timing, early November). Any race, with a 23 car field, $100 entry, $1,000 to win, $500 r/u, 200 semi, 100 3rd round, 50 2nd round. And no one comes out. We might get 17-18 cars on a GOOD day, with several races less than 12 cars (three cars at Numidia one year). Other similar series, with the same rules, same format, same entry/payout, get sometimes double the cars I get. Maybe people just don't like me. Oh well. It's probably going away next year (for the second time) so I won't have to worry about it anymore.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Okay, this thread came up at just the right time. I just recently watched the re-run of Pinks All Out 2009. In the words of Roy Hill "this is the way we remember drag racing." The pits were full of cars and spectators and all of the seats were full. Working on your car was a challenge due to all of the spectators that wanted to watch and take photos. Especially after the first round of quailfying on the pro tree. Old and new race cars and street cars heads up. The wheels were up in the air almost every run. A white chevrolet station wagon kept the crowd on their feet everytime he came to the starting line. He carried the front wheel almost to the 1/8th mile marker.

The classes were A thru K, if I remember correctly. A being the quicker cars, K being like 12.5 to 13.00 in a quarter mile. Our class was 11.50 and we had 68 cars in our class. You checked in and tech inspection on Friday, after you met tech then time runs began on Friday. And yes you could fail tech inspection, several did, you could fix it and then go back through again. Tech officials were there from Zmax, Bristol and Atlanta to get all of the cars teched. If you ran quicker than your class you either slowed the car down or at 5:00 on Friday you changed your class. Breakout and your out. We ran several of the Pinks All Out races with street cars and full out race cars competing together. To register to race the track used computers for early registration. Zmax Dragway in 2009 filled up in 9.5 minutes, 540 race cars. Virginia Motorsports filled in a little over 10 minutes if I remember correctly. Friday morning at 11:00 am Zmax sold out spectator seats with standing room only available. Saturday morning at 8:30 am the spectators were lined up to the round track waiting to get in.

Also, tracks have to go back to advertising races. I have pointed this out before, some people don't even know that there are still drag strips racing in North Carolina now. We have had our car at some car shows and people have made that comment. If they don't know that drag strips are open, their not going on the internet to see what is going on.

A track operator who wants to be brave and set up a race like this and advertise, other than waiting for someone to see it on the internet, he may be in for a big surprise. Heads up, races ending in inches not feet, without cars on and off of the throttle. Some body in North Carolina try this and lets see what happens.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

What is the difference between this and Stock/Superstock? Go to fast and lose.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Art, it is similar to Stock/Superstock racing except I forgot the most important rule. There is no lifting. Track personell were station along the track with radios, if you lift before the finish line you are also disqualified. The name of the game was run all out everytime down the track. If your times changed then you were "sandbagging" and disqualified. In other words no playing games. Two cars down the track both running "all out" and consistently running the same et there was no reason to get on a fender and think you might run him out and you win. If you race Stock/Superstock or are a spectator you know that at about 1000ft it sounds like both cars are about to run out of gas.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Still bracket racing. If they turned the clocks on, people would figure out in a hurry, and quit watching. The crowd actually believes it's heads-up. They haven't quite figured out what is going on when they disquailfy a racer for sandbagging.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

You can rent a track and put on whatever kind of race you want. That was my point to Butler. If you're going to do something, DO it. If it's a great idea, maybe people will come. As it turns out, there's an enormous amount of time, energy, money, and risk that goes into promoting an event. At some point, in the "Somebody ought to do xyz...", that somebody has to be you. (That's a global 'you', not directed at the original poster, per se)

Based on what we see from the outside, one would think that the PINKS All Out should make crazy money... so why is it gone? It may be worth noting that they also did some non-televised events called Armdrop Live, which did not fare as well. There's always a lot more to it than what we see at a glance.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Micheal, I did that for two years and without complete program of ads, time schedule during event and more cars it was hard. Now a track ASKS for help bringing it to their schedule. I hope we can pull a few of the same racers for a start up trial event.

Any cars that can run SS/B or BA cars interested let me know so as we plan I can include you in information.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Michael, I understand what you are saying. That is what happened at Pullin Entertainment and Speed Channel. The individual who came up with the idea and got it all started was also smart enough to have a contract. When he decided to leave to go to another type of event, by contract the event was finished. They have been discussing bring that event back in another type of format but just have not come up with something they feel everyone would support.

It would take someone with a large amount of capital to be able to put an event like that on. Hiring all of the personnel and coordination of those events had to take a lot of effort and finances. As you know NHRA tried something similar in "Unleashed" but the costs to enter their event left out a lot of racers. The fact that some of the racers who participated at Pinks All Out were some of the same racers that raced in Class at NHRA events, limited who participated at Unleashed. When we wanted to do one of the first Unleashed events the cost to enter, crew prices and all of the other costs per NHRA put us out. The Pinks All Out entry was only $60 for the week-end and $25 per crew member which for us totaled up to around $200. Unleashed with NHRA was $1000+ as I recall.

Racers will race in some format somewhere and hopefully not cost the the price of a mortgage payment. The key is to get the spectators back to help the track owners to be able to pay the expenses without having the racers paying all of the bills. Two or three hundred spectators at $10 is alot better than only 20 spectators at $25.

I, like everyone else is just brainstorming suggestions of how to keep this sport alive and thriving without going to the track each week-end and only have maybe 30 cars in the pits and the five or ten people in the grandstands being family members of the racers who came to race. You, like everyone else on this board know that this is what it is like every week-end at local tracks. Once a track has to close there is a developer standing at the gate with a bulldozer and building materials for new condos.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

I don't even pretend to know all the answers. I doubt anyone does. But I know one thing for sure, you'll never put butts in the bleachers, unless drag racing figures a way to get Bubba, and Jim Bob, who bring their family, and friends, interested in local drag racing. And that will never happen with brackets. Like I said, I don't know the answer, but the drag racing establishment damn sure missed it to.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Your right. People will not sit there and watch people lose for going too fast. Even fewer will sit there and watch throttle stop cars.
Before I lost what was left of my mind and put together another car, I started going to national events to watch long time friend Mike Edwards run Pro Stock. Sitting in the stands, after the fuel cars run about half seats go empty for Pro Stock. More leave when the alky cars come up. When the throttle stop cars come up nearly everybody leaves. I'm surprised how few watch Comp. I love Comp, but more money than I'm willing to spend here at the end. Some come back for Comp, Stk & SS, but not many. I've seen guys post about how excited spectators get when a nine second car is chasing down a fifteen second car, but that's only in their minds. Almost nobody watches us do anything.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Randy, I agree 110%. I attended Match races in California, and Indiana when Super Stock cars were booked in to run Heads Up and the crowd LOVED IT.
Assuming Heads up racing would have kept the crowd,The more the organization bent the class structures to allow "yes we have a class for your -----" the less the racing occurs.
Yes for the guy who loves the challenge of a 4 cylinder, V-6, 4000 lb wagon it offers a place to "enter" and PAY the organization.The choice was made to chase the entry numbers and money and it divided out the racers to limited numbers per class. Hard to have Class everywhere when only 3 cars fit the class in the USA.
Had they encouraged racers to accept the limited classes instead , all 400 serious Class racers in the USA could have populated the limited class structure and made for higher numbers per event and the spectators could have seen "racing" in classes instead of featuring the Bye Runs Friday and Dial In Sunday. Even local tracks could have continued with Heads up more easily.
Could it be fixed? Are most too old to change? If it were offered with support of cash, sponsors, featured time at the events, Treatment like TOP Sportsman. Probably but a major combined effort and time would be needed.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

There is not enough interest in motor sports from generation Y and Z to create anything. They want to sit on their *** and press their thumbs. Give it up guys and make the best of right now......this is it.......race for now and enjoy it as it is.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Everyone's seen that happen. What I have ALSO seen is thousands upon thousands of fans stay and watch all of the sportsman classes at a national event at Norwalk. I have ALSO seen the stands empty out during the sportsman classes at a national event at Norwalk. Yet another year, I saw thousands upon thousands of fans stay and watch all of the sportsman classes at a national event at Norwalk. What was the difference? At some events, the announcer TOLD the fans: Okay, time to get up, buy a hot dog, and go back in the pits to watch the Pros work. (Thereby creating a logjam at the concession stand, restrooms, and in the pits) Other times, the announcer explained the sportsman action people were seeing, and many stayed and enjoyed it. There always a segment that wants to go eat or watch the Pros, but if you just let them go when *they* want to, the lines and congestion stay more manageable. My first year working for IHRA, I was manually posting DRC-provided results on IHRA.com from the track office, and when I had a break, I'd go sit up in the stands, watch, and more importantly, LISTEN. People were interested in what they were seeing -- they just had a lot of questions. Stuff we take for granted anymore like "What are they spinning their tires in?" Once I started answering questions, everyone within earshot was asking questions about 'how does this work?' and 'what if this?'

If you advertise a race as "Show starts at 6:00PM!", then guess what, people are going to think the show starts at 6:00PM. If you tell them there's an incredible rolling car show going on all day long and educate them about what they're seeing, a lot of people will come, watch, and enjoy. If you tell them to leave, go buy a hot dog, and watch the Pros in the pits, then that's what they're going to do. I've seen it happen both ways.

Since I was a kid, all I've heard is "there's no kids coming into the sport, it's dying". There are dozens of kids coming into the sport at any given time at podunk little Beaver Springs Dragway alone, who bothers to market to them. Then you hear say "People can't understand bracket racing." Think about that for a second. Do you know how ridiculous that is? They're called rules (and there aren't very many of them). There are a massively larger set of rules in football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc. If people know what the rules are, this is NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND. It just needs explained. Make someone watch any game with no knowledge of the rules and without telling them what's going on, and they're likely to get bored or frustrated.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Dick you are talking about the "Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday days"
People are not going to come out in big numbers to watch a couple of nearly 50 year old cars race. Even if they carry the wheels clear to the finish line. Look at the lack of success in nostalgia racing. And the flop of top stock.
And you talk about those days as "the good old days" I remember some totally bogus cars being built specificaly to take out certain cars in class, only to lose to avoid a teardown.
The little guy could not compete with the factory cars back then any more that the 1st gen camaros, hemis and max wedges can compete with the new cars.
I also remember some having one legal cylinder and 7 totally bogus ones

Re: How competitive are you?
 

I have also seen some of what Art mentioned.

Michael, I don't know who was announcing at Norwalk, nor do know how many college & pro sports teams they have there. If there is not a lot of other local entertainment you can draw more people that don't know much about racing.
The only time I have ever seen "The show starts at 6:00 pm" was the couple of IHRA national events held here at Tulsa. I never heard mentioned at an NHRA race "Time to go buy a hot dog and watch the pros work either." Every one I have been to the announcer said something like "Now it 's time for Comp Eliminatot" or "Here comes Stock Elimminator!, or "Here come the wheel standing Super Stock cars!" Great anoincers like Bob Unkefer and Bob Fry, all talk it up and explain what is happening. I can't speak for IHRA as I have not been in the stands watching. When people ask about brakes at the finish line or somebody losing for running too quick, and I explain it to them, most comment on how dumb it is the faster car lost, and how "that is not really racing." It's not that most don't understand the rules, they just don't like it. Many told me they think nine or ten second SS cars are too slow to sit and watch (wheel stands or not) after loud fuel cars twice that fast. They like watching fuel cars they had watched on TV. I was amazed first time I watched the stands empty, and saw and heard those kinds of comments from the people that didn't leave right away. I didn't mention this to Mike and his guys.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

It's not coming back. Why, because we lost the crowd years ago. I remember being at Eddyville in, I think 79, and watching Tommy Johnson Sr. race the old Earl Earl's Show Me Shaker C\SM car, and have him visit with the crowd about how he was going to Indy to try to qualify for the nationals, and I'll bet 50 people went from there to Indy to watch their hometown hero try. We don't have that today. Why? Because they totally understand the rules. Because football, and basketball has rules, but each team does not have a pre-recorded dial of what they will score, and if going over costs them the win. Therefore, the crowd understands, and does not like. Sorry, but I can't get hardly anyone to go watch us dial in. Just the truth.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

That's the truth! We used to have as almost many C/SM cars running for class as we sometimes have for SS eliminator these days. That is a heads up guys could afford. Royce Freeman & I used to go run IHRA Supermodified when they were close. Our cars I had a C/SM, his B/SM) had smaller carbs, tires, and straight plug heads, but we could pretty much run with everybody but Ricky Smith. One race at Oklahoma City Royce won, I runner-upped to him. (Before Ricky) That was a blast. Won't happen again. People would keep wanting to add this, or that, just like Stock now. Was affordable, won't happen now. People did come watch since it was heads up, and no fuel cars to make us look slower. You can't get many people to watch bracket races if there is anything else to do.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Yes Ed, you're exactly right. I bought the old 67 nova,C\SM out of Canton Ohio off of Gary Husser. The car never qualified at a national, but made a big splash at Bethany. Straight plug 461x's by Shepard. I later bought the SS\CS 67 Quay camaro of Linden Bodnard, earlier a Danny Byrd C\SM, .out of Canada. Had a blast with those cars, and had 1,500 spectators every weekend to watch them run. But rules were affordable.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Ed everytime I pull up to the starting line the stands are empty. The only people watching us are the stocker guys. LOL

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Sad, but true. And, we are the only ones watching them.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

It doesnt have to be only ONE form of S or SS. Why not start with one Heads up class(you set the rule and wts etc) with support of others. Allow others to still race till they can afford to switch or care to do it. Give a schedule of moving to the Heads up formats of a year, or 2 so people can adapt, KNOWING the plans. High Light the Heads up for ads, announcer, sponsors as a package. This will do its own drawing if started at the right place. Thursday night test and tune meets locally would show the fans already there what it is and then offer it on a Saturday night /Sunday Meet TOO. This could draw the fans back to watch more of it. Pick the Cars for the development, Mustangs, COPO, SS/B, More SS/AH type OR pick a Mod type car with limited specs at the same time to develop the Cheaper racing format people discuss.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Dick, that's not a bad idea, but again, no one truly knows what the answer is, or how to draw a crowd. We lost them, and that's all our faults for letting it happen.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Michael Beard, now you and I agree on something that I hear over and over. There are young people coming out to the races and a lot of them. At almost all of the local tracks there are a number of young people in the pit area. Looking and asking questions. If we could give them a show that will get them up in the stands to watch the races then we are accomplishing something.

A lot of people say the younger generations don't have any interest in the old cars. You need to go out to a Saturday night cruise-in at a local resturant and see how many show up to look and talk about the old cars. We have our race car, 1971 Duster, at atleast one cruise in every month. Look at the photos from East Coast Drag Times Hall of Fame Reunion and see how many young people attend that event and how many families, Mom, Dad and children attend to look at those old cars. Thanks Michael for your comment.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

You have to realize, that the nastalgia races are also dial you're own, other then the pros. It will never be a big hit. The reason modified was such a big hit, and popular, is it was balls to the wall. If nastalgia was real racing, and had events in my area, I wouldn't be thinking of a new way to bring in the crowd. It would have already been accomplished.

Re: How competitive are you?
 

Also, once in a while we go to a car show. My daughters 38 chevy coupe gets lots more attention then the cobalt. Just saying. I think all the sanctioning bodies screwed up pushing the new car idea. I know everyone loved the mod racing just because of the old vets, mustangs, mavericks, cudas, challengers, novas, camaros, and chevelles.