Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

How about this:

Since there used to be 2 classes (SS/A and SS/AA) for the Hemi Cuda/Dart, how about 2 classes again

SS/AHPro, or PRO/AH....anything goes (basic body & frame, must resemble a hemi under the hood w/orginal scoop opening/height/org carbs....let 'em eat

SS/AH for full tech, SS as intended (bring the parked cars back)

Just an opinion

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

WOW....where do i sign up???...oops forgot there already is a ss/aa im just not allowed in it

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Based on the conflicting comments provided by David and Charlie regarding their communications with NHRA Tech Support, we have a conundrum.
If either party is sincerely interested in the integrity of the class, perhaps a conference call with Pat Cvengros and or Bruce Bachelder would be appropriate.
All of the above should take responsibility for, and respect the seriousness of this issue, in the interest of Class racing.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Might be better off going back to SS/A & SS/AA and if you don't run the eliminator you dont run the the shootout. Put the the 67 L88 Corvettes back in the books and let the the big dogs eat. Here is the best part----yanking some of these into the barn , taking pictures or video and making it available. This way we know NHRA is holding up their side of responsibilty. Instead , they choose to take the path of least responsibility and legalize everything. What a joke but so sad that it has come to this. I personally don't care who is at fault, just sit down and straighten it all out . If the NHRA wants to be governing body ,then by all means enforce the damn rules as they originally written. Everybody has a lot to gain or lose in this. Good luck !

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Charlie Lover,

I assume you are referring to when Pancake was tossed at the Columbus Shootout?

Ask Travis and Pancake (in private) how that turned out. NHRA's equipment was faulty and Travis proved it when Pancake had it re-checked at his next race. First they used the same equipment and it measured the same as the Columbus race, then they used different equipment and he was legal. You tell me who is to blame here. Besides, you really think I would cheat by adding 2 cc's to the piston?

Charlie still hasn't answered my simple 2 questions. Was his flange missing at Indy or not? AAAANNND, was he running the external modifications on the heads? If either of these are yes, then he was cheating, plain and simple. And he openly admitted he has been running the same stuff for years. So you tell me who the cheater is.

And yes, I am whining because it is a bunch of BS when certain NHRA officials turn their head and pretend there is nothing wrong because it says JESEL on the side of the car. It certainly isn't because of CW's great personality.

Wendell, the rule would have thrown out 95% of the class because it says you can't cut into ANY part of the valve cover bolt hole.

Billy, please call the shop.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Randall Klein, as always a wise man. That might have some merritt. Something for everyone. Cross ram, bolt holes & all the stuff. And it might indeed bring back some cars. It would, however, take a strong man to administer the classes. One in SS and one in SS Modified. Randy Hopkins probably has the most unmolested car, but I'm sure there are more. Great Idea.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

your first post, second paragragh said it never was a rule anyway, now it is that you couldn't cut into ANY part of the valve cover bolt hole. that is confusing to me?? LIVE ACTION

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Jeff AND Randall I share the same thoughts, could never understand all the geometric modifications (valve train) that started in the 90s (maybe earlier) knowing the writing was on the wall. I still remember many years ago, back when the rules were the same for ALL ss cars, overhearing Bob DeYoung MF Cloy Fitzgerald after getting bounced over bolt height on the hood scoop when they were still (honestly) checking bodies. And not trying to poke the beehive Jeff, but I remember one time long ago you and I were talking about how engine swaps between your guys Dart & the A990 car wasn't possible due to matched cyl heads to headers....I kinda hung up the phone with clammy hands wondering if you were subliminally telling me the ports were moved around a bit!!!! I still do respect swamp voodoo always make things appear different than what they really are.:D:rolleyes:

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

i think david means that the rule never said
"intake side of head may not be cut into any part of valve cover bolt holes
at the valve cover gasket surface"......it just said
"intake side of head may not be cut into any part of valve cover bolt holes"....seems pretty clear to me and has for years...of course it also says that any intake manifold permitted must remain original configuration..ie crossram must remain crossram ...not sure how the intakes of today aare considered crossrams..................

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Randall & Jeff, I'd ask you both this, If you're willing to do this for the HEMI cars / classes, then why not do it for all cars / and classes? We'll have "closer to o.e.m. legal car classes"... and a "heavily modified legal car classes".

We all realize that the current day, really really fast / quick cars in both Stock & SS have been modified much much more than those that are running closer to "o.e.m." parts and specs as defined by the rules in the rule book.

So how about nhra just start checking the safety items and allow anything / everything to pass... Oh that's right, that's what they've been doing already, and look at where the eliminators are.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Gentlemen !! whining will not solve that the class is not quit ready for the new rule and the old rule of not going threw the VC bolt hole seams like a clear defined line not to cross

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

David Please NHRA told me the rule was going to say bolt holes at vavle cover surface It would make all except (bartons) good.Sorry this does not fit for you.The new heads look look good maybe 35cfm when we go buy the bolt holes.25 hp????? Can not wait to see what happens. Wendell

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Can someone please explain to me when this valve cover bolt hole rule existed? Because the rule books I have say nothing about them in the Super Stock section, only in the Stock section. And it states ANY part of the bolt hole in Stock.

If it was applied to Super Stock, wouldn't it be written like the other repeat rules like the head must have the proper casting number, etc?

I'm not sure how many of you understand that Hemi heads have been breaking into the bolt holes since they allowed porting in S/S.

I also want to make it clear that even CW's heads break into the bottom of the valve cover bolt holes. So for the Charlie lovers that think the Super Stock rules are supposed to carry over from Stock, CW's heads wouldn't pass with that rule either.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Well, Brad, Darin & I understand. Refer to pic on page 4. Looks like my $10k is just that, my $10k.........

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I've not said anything about this fiasco but I am as bothered about this as anyone. I don't have a race car anymore but as some of you know, I am one of the biggest fans of this class. I have made friends from California to New Jersey and Michigan to Flordia and sure hate to see so many SS/AH cars parked but I could see this starting to happen a couple of years ago. This just didn't happen last year, its been a long drawn out process. But the rules have always been there, just that NHRA and racers have turned there heads untill each year less and less cars are running. This fighting among the guys in this class is doing nothing but hurting it. I remember the days when the SS/AA racing was fun and the competitors enjoyed it as well. Why can't everyone just get along?:)

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

When a SS engine costs $60k that should be telling you that way too much is going on there. These cars were awesome when they left with the tires in the air and ran low 9's. I had a lot of respect for them then, but not now.

There are no easy answers, as one way you keep a lot of parked cars out that are a lot closer to the spirit of what the class was meant to be, and the other financially wounds a lot of current cars racing. How many would park their cars with a return to rule enforcement instead of appeasement? How many cars racing now could even go back to the condition required under the rules being enforced? Take a look at some of the chassis in them and ask yourself that question.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

If you look at the intake manifold from the front of the car you will notice a slight offset of the carbs which allow the manifold to meet the intent of a crossram. The height of the intake has also been altered and the engines have been lowered on modified k-frames.If you ever go to a show and see a restored Dart or Cuda you can't see the carbs in the scoop. In SS/AH you can them plain as day in the scoop.:eek:

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Today's intakes are tunnel rams with offset carbs.... Crossrams have crossed runners

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Two Words-Hell's Hemi

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

No disrespect towards anyone, but I'm sorry you and the Reher & Morrison gang didn't realize what the rules were, just like when you got tossed for the boosters in your carbs, or the external mods on your heads. Till this day I want to see you guys perform well. I was excited the day I heard Reher & Morrison was involved in the class. I'm sure if I jumped into Pro Stock there would be more than a few details I would miss that would be obvious to them.

When you jumped in this game you openly admitted you wanted a Westcott engine and a Barton engine for education because you were going to take both of them to Reher & Morrison. I truly respect your honesty, but did you think anyone would send you their best heads with a game plan like that? My Dad respectfully turned down the offer for several reasons. I'm not sure exactly what happened with the other camp. Sounds like the other camp didn't send you the resurfaced heads to copy.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Wendell, I don't understand why you're getting so hostile with me. The rules were already written. You were trying to get NHRA to re-write the rules. Like you said, the rule WAS going to say..... There was no need for changes.

You're just pissed because you thought for sure we were moving our intake flanges and we weren't. It originally had nothing to do with how far they were machined. It was about the location of the holes, which I completely agree with. I can prove that because you were complaining how your valve covers should bolt onto anyone's heads. Bring them over, I'll happily bolt them on because our threads are still there. I can't say the same for others. They are busted off completely.

If you ask me, you're the guy that brought on this whole mess in the first place. It all started at the Englishtown National where every AH car had to remove their valve covers. And somehow you were the only guy that knew what they were checking for. You gave yourself away.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

These are the latest two interesting amendments to the rule book as applicable to Super Stock Class:

SECTION 11: SUPER STOCK, ENGINE: 1, CYLINDER HEADS (Page 1) (2/20/2013)

"External modifications prohibited, intake side of head may not be cut into any part of valve cover bolt holes (except for SS/AH). Valve-cover bolt holes must remain unaltered and in their original location (except for SS/AH)".

SECTION 11: SUPER STOCK, ENGINE: 1, ENGINE (Page 1) (2/27/2013)

"Aftermarket crank must retain OEM configuration (i.e., billets, knife edging, narrowed/pendulum cut counterweights, etc. prohibited). Lightening of crankshaft other than normal balance job prohibited. The following are permitted: gun drilled rod and main journals, bull nosed counter weights, any size rod and main journal, additional oil passage holes for rod and main journals."

It sort of reminds me of the old Modified Eliminator rules... :)

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

It was SS/AH that sparked my interest into Superstock racing. Being around these cars made me want to build a superstock car, but I just didn't know what kind or how.

I knew I could never afford to build/race an AH car, but as an outsider looking in the cars are just amazingly fast for what they are, crazy if you ask me. And I always thought that was really cool. Plus the cars, themes, paint jobs, and the coooks that own them are a blast as well. You have to be a bit off of your rocker to build/race an AH car, which is why I get along with them. haha

As a fan of the SS/AH class I don't like seeing the car counts diminishing as the years pass, but it's not just this class, it's overall. I do however think that this class is definitely salvageable and definitely worth saving!! But it seems like they'll need some help from NHRA.

I know a lot of "original super stock" guys think that my car doesn't belong in the class, just like I feel than any FWD 4 cylinder car converted to a V8 RWD shouldn't be either. But that is why I was always interested in Superstock. So many classes, platforms and combinations and well built cars. Instead of having an attitude like "this isn't a real super stocker" maybe embrace it and grow as times change??? I have a feeling that is the only way for class racing to continue growing instead of dying off.

Just an opinion from a different point of view, and a tad off topic. :)

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Hi Jay, thanks for the reminder. This is another great experience I had with NHRA's BS. I drove 3000 miles to Mission, BC to fight Harry Holton for the SS/AA record. By the way, it was an awesome experience. Definitely one of the best trips, great air, great track, great people out there.

We came to find out that NHRA was letting Holton put his carbs inline. He set the record that way. To make a long story short, we made our own version as soon as we got home. I went to the next race which was the Englishtown National Event, and was thrown out of tech by Bob Lang. I told Bob I agreed it was bogus, but the West coast gang was running the exact same setup and set a record. He said, "Not in my division".

Guess what happened next. They made a rule change after the race. Then it eventually turned into a tunnel ram. I don't blame Bob, he knew what the rules were and tried to enforce them, but was eventually overruled.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Didn't baughman set a record with an inline first?...been a long time ago my memory may be foggy

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

We definitely weren't the first to run an inline. Bob Jenkins had one on their Dart long before the Ogburn/WCH days. Can't speak for Baughman.

Personally, I hate the tunnel rams. Wasn't a fan of bringing the carbs inline either. I realize rule changes help make them faster. If builders didn't "innovate," the cars might still be in the 10's. I guess I just like the idea of pulling the hood on an SS car and seeing something that resembles the factory piece beyond the valve covers.

BTW, David, that manifold you're referring to is still at the shop. I can send you a pic if you feel like waxing nostalgic. Lol

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

David The way this started was we asked NHRA if we could cut into the bolt holes at the vavle covers surface and they said no no no.They did not say this was for Barton only so I thought it was for all AH cars.One year late we are here.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

NHRA is working on a Hemi Tech Card 2013. Will be publilshed later. Goes into much more detail. Such items as 'Distance from package shelf to required original floor'. I think 14" is the correct answer, now that 'original floor', proabably aint none out there. And that is one of the easy questions.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

#1. David, ya'll keep those in the trailers with the cars or back at the shop? I know, your a French model. Bon Jour




pitoyable

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Distance from a line 90 degrees from end of front subframe rail to firewall from a point 12" above end of subframe rail. Distance between frame rails (a-body, b-body-fabricated, imaginary). Distance from spindle center to top or inner fender. Configuration of inner fender panel. Lots of good stuff here. Going to Houston. Will send more as I read it.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

From hearing all of the arguments it sounds like the best fix is to get some formal training for the tech department of the NHRA. They need to take an approach like the NFL or NBA so that there is some consistency in how they go about enforcing rules in the handbook. Tech directors should conference call how they want to go about checking/enforcing rules and then put a written formal method of how to do that such that every division knows how things should be handled. From there training on this procedure needs to happen via online videos or classroom with some sort of test to verify the knowledge has been retained so all individuals doing tech inspections can be consistent division to division. The lack of consistency is what seems to be at fault and it seems as though there was no communication between divisions of problems as they come up. In situations were one division allowed something and another division did not, somebody needs to be contacted regarding that so that some consistency can be upheld. Also, racers surrounding that situation should be contacted to clarify whether there was a mistake on the ruling of not. I'm sure money is tight and none of the tech dept want anything of this magnitude but in the long run, it would help them.

I mean, if David was told one thing, Wendell was told another, and Charlie another, how could anyone expect that things would be consistent and there would be no repercussions
by telling three people in the same class different things when all three have engine programs that are centered around innovation? Anybody familiar with ESPN's "COME ON MAN" segment, it would be appropriate for this situation in regards to the tech officials involved..

So two things:
Get the ruling right in regards to the heads,
Tech needs to work harder to be more consistent.


PS: I want it to be know that all of I what I have suggested is waayyyy easier said than done.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Not a good idea to use major league sports as the template!
The NFL not so much, but it does remind one of the NBA where a personal foul by one player isn't a personal foul by another player or MLB where a strike is a strike for one pitcher or batter and isn't a strike for another pitcher or batter!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

A request to the Stock and Super Stock Committee he been submitted for their consideration. The request proposes the creation of two classes in SS for running this combination, although not a specific solution on the classes or possible differences, which would need developed IF the proposal is seriously considered.

If, like me, you own a car and are interested in running a traditional combination following the SS rules and possibly returning to a real cross ram intake, while also allowing those with this combination free reign to turn the AH class into steel bodied pro stockers, my suggestion is to contact your SRAC representative or one of the S/SS Committee members found here: http://www.nhra.com/competition/committees.aspx and voice your opinion directly to them.

The fast cars already spin the backhalf of the track in killer air on non-national event prepped tracks. Next is spoilers (safety), R&P steering (has been lobbied for in the past), and it has to be easier to machine an AL head then create what is now allowed to be done to a steel head (and for a few days the AL head was legal for AH this year until that issue was reversed/corrected in the guide).

I'm all for letting the guys who want to run modified comp cars with this body style or steel bodied pro stocker versions of these cars. More power to them, and in their own class they can ask for all the changes they want or take the proven route of cheating/innovating/etc and then having the rule amended to allow what one group wants (intake before, heads now) but there should be an option for guys who don't want to cut their cars up, would like to retain the integrity and uniqueness of these cars under SS rules, and aren't ready to run Nostalgia races either.

-Matt Welker

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I run in SS/AH with my 68 Barracuda. When I started building the car the index was 9.90. then it moved to 9.80, then to 9.30. I hoped the car could run 9.30's when I started the build, this was in 2005. I have Barton heads that I bought used, dated 5/00, and a nice short block with Diamond pistons, etc. I enjoy going to Indy to support the class, but never built it to run with the big dogs. I can run 50-60 runs with the same springs and have run a few 8.90's, but mostly 9 teens and twentys. As long as you have shoe polish on the windows I can race with anyone, except for a heads up run, which I have had only one in 4 years. The point is you can race and have fun and not worry about all the go real fast stuff and worry about who has the lastest trick of the week. I do have another engine going together that I would like to be faster, but I do not worry about being the fastest. Now, if someone has to much $$$ and would like a place to spend it, please let me know. See everyone this spring. Dyno "Gold Coast Hemi"

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

New prototype 2013 SS/AH cylinder head valve covers. Contact your local MoPar dealer for more info. Only offered in blue.

http://ihmusedparts.files.wordpress....ok-image-2.jpg

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http://ihmusedparts.files.wordpress....a-rulebook.jpg

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Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

OK Larry, That's it !!!!!!!!!!!! David won't do it, so I will, I contacted Levi . The Amish Mafia is on it! Someone, (or somebody's going down, probably Teuton.)

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Or a Lewinski.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

X2 :cool:

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Since we are reminiscing about Hemi stories, I will never forget my 2nd Indy two years ago. I was a rookie with a fairly fast car (R&M’s 1st attempt), number six Q I think behind the Hatfield & McCoy team cars. I went red in round two against a young “Top Gun” driver for the McCoys. I was actually faster than him on that run. That’s why I support the win on a red light rule mentioned in the first post. He was Maverick and Ice Man all rolled into one. The Hatfield cars had left the night before as gravity had relocated their #1 intake valves to unwelcome areas of their motors. So I just watched in awe as the young driver mowed down one side of the ladder while their other McCoy team car “took care of business” on the other side. They were destined to be in the final. The young man was rapidly becoming my idol and hopefully my mentor one day. Then right before the semis a small riot seemed to be starting at his rig. I scurried over to see what was happening. Someone shouted “Where the heck did he get that tall hood scoop, from the movie CARS??” The young man calmly said “Fellas, fellas wait just a minute.” He moseyed (we mosey in the South), he moseyed into the stacker and came out with ANOTHER (YES ANOTHER) perfectly painted matching hood with a legal 4 inch scoop to CALM the masses and finish the race. NHRA said NOProblemO. WOW! I had heard stories of an old hemi car in the Northeast called “Two Scoop Lido” but I was standing in the presence of none other than TWO SCOOP DAVE. Man, I would be honored to pay to letter that on his many famous cars. I asked my car builder John why I didn’t have two hoods? Did everyone go to Indy with two hoods?? “NOPE, not needed if you have the correct 4” scoop” he said .
Now on a serious note Two Scoop, you “kicked this skunk” starting this “holier than thou” thread calling people cheaters. I have never seen Charlie or his Dad changing hoods in a race. Their arbor was somewhat hidden. My chrome bolts were not as this was a car show and a drag race broke out. As for me, I have my cheater letter and ya’ll can call me “Screwhead Steve”. Welcome to the fraternity.
PS: I do respect you going to work every day in the family business to provide for your beautiful young family. Just stay off the internet when you’re in a glass house. Stephen

PS 2 Larry, that's my color...

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Two scoop Lido! That's some funny stuff right there!!

BUT- this story only reinforces David's allegations! If he was in a glass house he would've finished the race with the tall scoop and the following week an addendum to the rules added allowing tall scoops,

I'm all for tickling the rule right to the legal limit. But this 1/2 Hemi head stuff just doesn't do it for me:(