You are right. Get rid of two steps in Stock. FOOT BRAKE ONLY, keep it pure.
Spec buttons could be the best answer for S/Stock and Comp. At least then if you are doing the way it was intended you don't have to worry about somebody inventing a 1.00 hydraulic pressure bleed switch that they claim is no delay box....at least in their minds.

Don't forget to vote by tomorrow at www.nhra.com

Just an old geezer who still gets to the strip every week.

They ought to fix that dammed "worst red light" thing before messing with this.

As long as both cars in handicap racing arent't treated equally, nothing is worth fixing.

Guys, better really think what you are wishing for, remember the good old days before the long throw buttons? That was when we had regular blubs with a FILAMENT that you could see lighting and going out and racers could adjust themself. Now we have LEDs just on/off

We all will now go to a National event with the tree set at a 4.70 full tree and then next week we will be at a divisional track with a little more/or less rollout and a true 500 tree and WHAT DO YOU DO?

Jeff Lee writes:
>> I'm getting ready to back-half / 4-link the car. It has been pulling left for some time now. Even what I think is an extreme amount of pre-load on the left Cal-Track bar doesn't fix it. Shock settings, weight bias , roll-out all indicate a car that should pull right if anything.

Jeff, check the brakes, and see if one is hanging a little! That happened to Travis Womble several weeks ago. Also, Chip Johnson had been dealing with a similar issue with his Hot Rod car this year. They found that one of the suspension mounting points was two inches higher than another!

Just to put in a quick note in the Mayhew vs stockracer debate... Mayhew was #3 in the world last year... must've done SOMETHING right, even if he is the best bad driver I've ever seen. ;-) For stockracer, congrats on your stats... averaging 4 rounds/race is typically enough to win a championship. With those figures, your round win percentage often comes out around 80%. Impressive!

Re: buttons, I drove a high 9-sec Super Stocker, leaving at 7,000 with a short button. It was far more difficult to hit the tree with that than with the Five-Oh button, which I was able to 'dial-in' in three passes to my sweet spot on the tree. With a spec short button, I think you might see more 'traditional' Super Stockers in the future... there'd be a tradeoff between having a great spot on the tree, and being able to chase everyone with a super fast car, in my opinion.

$.02,


Michael Beard
Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum - World Record Holder

I too was going to quickly vote no, but like Jeff Dona, I would like to know what spec release button they have in mind...to me, that is a mechanical release, not electronic

The LED's and more night rounds are a problem with the short buttons.

Just my opinion

Randall Klein

From what I see here the main concerns are people "cheating"- namely going off of the top bulb, and secondly- stick guys being at a disadvantage because they have less adjustment.

What if we were to do this; NHRA ?staggers? the tree. This means that the time the top bulb stays lit, varies slightly from run to run. Instead of the bulb being lit for .5 tenths (as it currently is), it would stay lit for lets say .46 one run and for .54 the next run (or anywhere in between). Now if a driver even tries to ?cheat? and leave off of the top bulb he will not be successful. His reaction times would be all over the place and he would place himself at a huge disadvantage.

Now NHRA and racers wouldn't have to worry about racers going off of the top bulb. If a guy wants an adjustable button and a stick guy wants a delay box for adjustability with a clutch release system, let it happen, as long as everyone is going off of the bottom bulb like we were intended to. Same for automatic guys with adjustable buttons. Bottom bulb, no cheating and a fair playing feild for all is what we are after here,,, right?

A spec button isn't a bad idea either but is does open the door to people still hiding stuff. Let people use what they want to for adjustability (track to track you need adjustability and clutch guys too) but stagger the tree to elliminate the thought of cheating. This concept has been used before and with success.

Prestage bulb, Stage bulb, one Amber, green and red, won't need a box then!

woodro josey
I miss Buster Couch and Lex Dudas.

.500 Pro Style tree fixes everything. Looks more consistent to the spectators too.

Owen S. Quirion
BF/S 1985 Pontiac Grand Am

Woody,
Respectfully a one bulb tree could kill the handicap system. I ran on that in the early IHRA days and the fast car left on the slow car llight with better chance to react just dial in at the amount needed to USE the slow car light. Maybe it could be done with practice but...

Dick Butler 3529

Woodro has the best Idea on the tree but why not get rid of ALL of this electronic , air, and hyd. crap from the 2-step to the multifunctional delay box and throttle stops in the so called .90 classes and ALL of the performance classes? Why use release buttons longer than your dick? Why add more **** to the pile? Make it simpler and LESS expenseve again. Learn how to drive your combo or take up golf instead! The average FAN might come to watch sportsman racing again and it just MIGHT get more TV time and save sportsman racing from themselves. Just my .02 cents.

Lets just put a set of rails down the track, intall lap bars in all cars, and then the starter can control the ride. That's where we are headed with all these delay boxes, throttle stops, easier trees, etc. I may be young but I still believe in the days of the DRIVER.

Theres no difference in a one amber tree and a pro tree...Instant green would pose the problem of the fast car leaving on the slow car movement...I said pro tree isnt a bad idea and got laughed at.

lol, speak for yourself little richard... keep your personal problems out of this thread.

-A/FIA 1981-

hey Pat, see you sunday? The weather is looking good.

-A/FIA 1981-

I personally don't get to vote on this topic, but I figured I would chime in anyway.

1. Spec button - NHRA could always buy a lot of say 200 buttons, and distribute them to the races at an event (though that would require NHRA to spend their own money, and we know that isn't going to happen). You could probably organize some type of button impound between days of the races to insure that they weren't modified. Just some thoughts...

2. I don't think 5-tenths pro-tree handicap racing is the worst idea in the world, but you'd still need a spec button and no delay boxes. Otherwise, it's just bracket racing like it is on any dragstrip across the country on any given weekend.

3. 5-tenths pro-tree handicap racing would be more difficult for the faster car without any electronics. However, this just might help even out the first-or-worst rule as well. So, by going to this type of racing you just might kill two birds with one stone (the first guy to redlight would still be out, but the disadvantage of having to leave second, especially in races with close dials, would probably cause the faster car to have a poor light more times than the slower car).

Just my $0.02. Have fun voting, and from the perspective of a competitor in a different class, I hope you guys resoundingly vote no to delay boxes (just like I wish NHRA would do away with delay boxes and throttle stops in the .90 classes).

Jason Oldfield
S/G & S/ST 1838

You racing modified at NED this weekend Billy?

I agree that the launch should be from a foot action, not some BS low RPM realease with a lin loc or 3 incher. I also think that NHRA could police this. If they at least made a decision and communicated it to the group, it would be a start. If they don't want to pay any additional $$, then why not ask for a couple of volunteers that could check cars after fuel check in a random or whatever fashion. This is a hot enough topic, that I bet there would be a few willing to take a peek if they were Deputized by NHRA for some events. I did see Div. 2 tech at least looking at some cars after runs. That may not be the ultimate solution, but it showed some effort at least.

Here's my take...NHRA is getting nervous about the loss of control with these delay type buttons. I'd guess they wish they'd stepped in long ago. Now that the horse is out of the barn, what can they do? Why not throw out something really wild (delay boxes) knowing the results will be a resounding NO! They now have permission to correct past mistakes. Establish a spec button that everyone has to run and is somewhat easier to police. If they are smart, they'll get tough with anyone who deviates from the rule.

But, no one said racers were stupid! The real thinkers and inventors will find ways to optimize the new rules, that's just human nature.

Let the games begin!!!

'RG' Menard

I too am against the delay boxes, but let's not forget that a delay box does not make a bad driver good. You still have to react and driving is not a matter of who can react the fastest, but rather who is the most consistent. A delay box allows you to move three straight .040 lights to make them .010 lights while still leaving at the same spot on the tree. If you are .040, then -.025, then .060, a delay box does you absolutely no good.
The .500 pro tree is intriguing to me, but I think the old school purists will fight it simply because it's not the way ss or comp was conceived. I still think it's great that NHRA asked for input on this before making a ruling.

Good point, RG. I agree, delay buttons and boxes should go the way of the wind in Super Stock and Comp. Unfortunately, I'm a stock racer and have no "vote" on the subject. If they do "ban the buttons" for 2008, I don't expect the winners list to change too much.

Jim Kaekel 3836

Absolutley NO for pro-tree in sportsman classes...those who need to flashrace to win rounds should continue with blinders and such...and leave the full three to those that wants or need it! CATCH THE CHEATERS INSTEAD OF SIMPLYFYING EVERYTHING ABOUT THESE CLASSES!!! taking away the full three is taking a dimension away from this type of racing...

sorry i was really to complain over that this thread changed a bit,like most others...and turned into a "christmas wishlist" ....just go and voice your opinion (you that can) and lets see what happens!

i'll be there with the bird. you?

-A/FIA 1981-

hey Billy,

The sox may not hit well this year, but they sure can pitch-good luck this weekend.

I like my 2 step and am to old to change now, but no to boxes.

thanks dave, you're right about the sox. Manny finally put one out today.

-A/FIA 1981-

See you there, hopefully the track has some grip this time.

Ok, I had sex with Anna Nichole Smith and the prince was never in the picture just me and Larry.

how is a DELAY box going to make you quicker? i could see a delay box take three -.040 lights and make .010 greens out of them but I don'tr think it will go the other way

Chad Rhodes
STK 2113
www.rhodesmotorsports.net

Buttons are not a delay box. You still react to the flash. Not punch in some numbers and let a delay do the trick. It still is activated by the driver.

If delay boxes where made legal.
How about a delay box with a maximun delay of .099 , adjustable from .099 to .000 and a spec button ?

This is actually a fairly ridiculous topic all the way around...

Heck... why don't we use a spec air pressure in the tires? This can be used as a reaction time tuning device.

While we are at it... why don't they use a spec launch rpm depending on the combination you run... lord knows I've used this method to move my reaction time around.

Bias tires vs. radial tires... adjustments here can be made in a bracket race due to the variance in air pressures and sidewall flex.

Transmissons/transbrakes... I've got two transmissions set up two hundredths apart.

Sunglasses/no sunglasses/blue blockers/wiley x.... hell mandate what we can wear on our eyes too! These do make a difference...

Bumping in... let's outlaw that too! I'm sure none of us have ever bumped in a bit to get that little extra we needed on the tree.

And more...


The fact of the matter is the bad drivers on the tree... well, they will still be bad. The good drivers on the tree will find a way to still be good no matter what devices, buttons or circumstances are mandated or outlawed. I would imagine that most, or all, of your perennial top 10 guys are utilizing some sort of adjustable button. If you think for a minute that a change in the rules will slow them down, that's probably a poor way of thinking, especially over the long haul. As history typically shows... the cream always rises to the top.

As far as a delay box taking an .040 and making it an .010... I guess it would depend on where the delay was set on the .040. Take some of the delay out of it if it's there. With rollout differences in tracks, I'm sure this adjustment needs to happen quite often. But as Mr. Mason said... it still requires you to have a good, consistant signal to leave on. The driver that is all over the map on the tree would still be lost.

My vote... do nothing! If guys are cheating now, they will find ways to cheat with the new rules. Believe me, the technology is there. Although, I do belive the faster cars will have some issues staying green without the button delays, the good drivers will make the adjustments necessary. Get it close and you can still use any of the things above to fine tune your tree. Let it rest...

how about a .400 FULL tree.

Chad Rhodes
STK 2113
www.rhodesmotorsports.net

Hit a .4 full tree with a 12 sec or slower car and see if you still feel the same way.

I can hit a good light in my mid 12 second street car. I think I could do it in a stocker as well

Chad Rhodes
STK 2113
www.rhodesmotorsports.net

Best post so far.
I agree and it's my bet that: NOTHING will change.

And let me add this - Don't you doubt NHRA is going to sell or hand out buttons or anything else they could be held accountable for?

Yeth.





I miss my tranny brake....

To those who don't believe delay boxes make you a better racer are wrong. Just ask any Super Pro racer. First off you eliminate counting down and anticipation. You may even get to crossover if the blinders aren't on the top bulb and you may get a second chance if you're the quicker car. Don't forget about bumping down if you've missed light altogether

I started in footbrake many years ago and was never consistent on the tree and once I moved up to Super Pro with a delay box my lights were consistently between .505 - .515. Delay boxes WILL tighten it up tooooo much and makes those terrible on the tree very competitive. This is why Super Comp/Gas are so competitive.

If NHRA did decide to allow delay boxes, it would then change a car owners chassis setup. Good Bye Big Wheel stands...........You're going a need a super consistent forward leaving car and we all know wheelies aren't consistent. Your car better be running within .01 -.02 every run or your flat out dead

It will turn into a Rich Matty, Mark Cook, Barney Barnhart - Norwalk Raceway Park show. What I mean by saying that is that their front wheels never left the ground and they rolled out slowly (Boring and confusing to the novices). Those who raced at NRP know what I mean.

I was not referring to cheating as others may seem to believe by the comment.

They are VERY good racers






I'm still against them in SS

Anyone know which way NHRA is swaying towards

If I have this right...the difference between a adjustable button and a delay box is on which bulb you release. Button is bottom bulb, box is top bulb. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same. The advantage of a box (top bulb) would be a driver would have sufficient time to get both hands on the wheel before the car launches. Could make cars a little safer off the line!

'RG' Menard

I don't think anyone's saying practicing with a box won't bring your average down. But that's not the topic.

I miss my tranny brake....

well when we start having drivers wreck off the line insted of by standing on the brakes then that MIGHT be a concern

Chad Rhodes
STK 2113
www.rhodesmotorsports.net

i cannot vote on this because i only race ihra but i can voice my opinion here. no to delay boxes. they practically ruined bracket racing. thats why dragsters dominate bracket racing. when i started racing it was all door cars with a few roadsters mixed in. but when delay boxes came in the good racers did not have the advantage they used to, thats why the quicker more consistent cars came along. now you have to have a 50,000 dollar car to be competitive in big time bracket racing. my point is everybody is going to be alot tighter on the tree so alot more people are gonna go to the faster cars to try and get the advantage back. as far as going to a pro tree you might as well take your slower cars and throw them in the trash, a 13 second wheels on the ground leaving car has no hope of hitting a pro tree versus a 10 second wheels in the air car.