Originally Posted by Greg Hill (Post 387098)

As I see it we have two main problems, first we have an organization (NHRA ) whose top management doesn't understand class racing and could care less, but probably the biggest challenge is simply demographics. Look at the average age of stock and super stock racers. As we age and quit racing who is going to take our place? We have some younger racers but if you look in the staging lanes at almost any race you will see a bunch of racers in their 50's, 60's and 70's. other than 2nd or 3rd generation racers there are very few new racers coming in to our sport. I don't know if there is an answer for this problem.

Originally Posted by Dick Butler (Post 387103)

One issue is the $ fears. Many think S and SS needs to be affordable by everyone. Bracket racing IS affordable for anyone. Thats where to race for limited money. If you want spectators, class payout, attention, you need a Heads Up show. You name the cars but it cannot be one of everything on a dial in.
The factoring issue is a BIG problem. Too much slowing in class kills it too.
Have a Limited number of classes for the money. People will complain. Some cannot continue but team car idea would allow guys to pool money and continue if cost is too much.
CiC in eliminations of the 10 or 12 class winners.
TOO many classes, variants to satisfy one or two racers. Racing is not Bracket format.
Racing is Heads up winning.
Want a cheaper Class Car? own 1/4 of it and work together.
Want to own it? Create a Modified type class for ONE combination for everyone with strict limits. Not 10 wt breaks.....

Originally Posted by Bobby Fazio (Post 387141)

I have a better idea.. Explain to the 3 spectators in the stands what dial-in racing is, why the numbers are on the board, and why the racer got to the finish line first and lost. Have alan reinhart and dave reiff explain it with a computer generated visual aid on espn2, illustrating a few different scenarios that can happen in a dialed race. Explain that this concept is what keeps class racing "fair" for all the competitors until a heads-up run occurs. How about an information board or a pamphlet at national events that explains this as well? I think eliminations are way more interesting to watch than qualifying.. First guy to the finish line wins in those and it's boring. If you don't explain what dial-in racing is you just keep having "ignorant" spectators through no fault of their own who continue to utter things like "That's stupid it should just be first guy to the finish line wins."

Originally Posted by Harry 6674 (Post 387148)

No one watches shoe polish racing no matter how hard its pushed. If you get to finish line first and lose it should have a different name. When I started racing we ran off the records and it was way more fun. The cars back then typically weren't built like they are now. There was a bigger chance of breakage so there was always the chance you could beat a faster car. Missed shifts were common.

Originally Posted by boostedf22c (Post 387129)

The next generation of racers aren't going to be class racers.

They are heads up, pro tree, fastest car wins type racers. There are tons of other races going on all over the country where the "younger generation" race at. They just aren't interested in class racing. To them it's confusing. You get penalized for going to fast, you qualify off of some fictitious number that NHRA came up with, you get fined and banned for stupid reasons, the events are 3-5 days long plus travel, the entry fees are ridiculous, the payouts are low and the rules are written in a manner that if you don't have a traditional car, built by the big 3, you'll have a hard time fitting in. These are all things I have heard from others that race, but don't class race.

I personal enjoy all aspects that racing has to offer. But I'm starting to find out it's very hard to have a car that is good at everything. :)

Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 387107)

Dick, you just keep beating that drum!

Originally Posted by Tony Janes (Post 387184)

Stock is not in trouble, the problem is there a a few who do not like the way NHRA runs the eliminator.

Originally Posted by Dick Butler (Post 387227)

Billy, Dont get nervous. I cannot affect NHRA. I cannot even convince you to read the concerns of those who post here. I cannot get you to have an open discussion about things "I believe" could help get more people in the stands, More sponsors, more fun.

Dick, more sponsors, more hassles! IMHO, the only things that are going to put more people in the stands are blood, guts and controversy. We have become a self supporting sport/hobby and we seem to be doing fine that way.


You are correct I do not contribute to NHRA entry funds by racing a car currently. I did support THREE SS/GT cars for several years. Age and life changes have encouraged me to change my activities and direction. I still have a right to respond to questions regarding the sport.

Yes, you do. Your cheap shots (not being allowed to run S/SS because you race a) kind of give away your intentions though, don't they?


I know that without a car it is so much easier to see the issues while not paying entry.

Is that like being a politician? You know how to spend my money better than I do? Maybe you should apply for a job in the "Ivory Tower". They're pretty good at that even though most of them haven't got a clue as to what is involved in racing a S/SS car.


Correct, maybe it should not matter to me but having worked hard to organize, manage and run 7 or 8 TOP/SS, and later a TOP/STK events where racers spoke how much they liked it , I have some reasonable input. We did this with only a space to race after many left for the motels. Even Sponsors contributed to these races.All I have spoken to about this project would do it again in a heart beat.

You, the IHRA and a cast of other characters have all tried TOP/SS, TOP/Stk and TOP Wheelbarrow with exactly the same results, not enough participation, not enough spectator interest, not enough prize/sponsorship money and TOO costly to compete! I absolutely love watching TOP whatever but it will always be a self supporting venue. NHRA is doing the "Factory Musclecar" deal right now and buried it in the middle of the rest of Sportsmen qualifying instead of showcasing it with "The Show"! And then, they couldn't even be bothered to prep the track! I guess that shows what THEY think of the idea. The only thing that came about from that little experiment is a soft index that lets the participants hide from the AHFS and makes it tougher for a regular Stocker to qualify at Indy.


Please do not take my discussions personally. These are supposed to be open to ideas from all people who have best interest of S and SS in mind.
Thank you for understanding.
" All of Stk is doing just fine". How many non racer family were in the stands? How much round money was paid? How many sponsors paid the 3rd place car? This should not be a participant only sport if it is to gain support.

Originally Posted by Jim Caughlin (Post 387167)

Bobby, you don't need to explain it to the three spectators because all three of them are family members of the guy going down the track...

Originally Posted by Michael Colaluca (Post 387276)

What is hurting the future of stock and superstock? The cost!

Who in their 20s-30s is going to want to spend 10k+ on a race engine, when they can spend the same money and go twice as fast using other means?

The rules need to be reevaluated. If nothing happens, watch the classes disappear.

Originally Posted by Michael Colaluca (Post 387293)

Exactly!

I have several buddies that go grudge racing quite often. One spent the same amount as it cost to build a nice 318, for an entire vehicle that runs in the 5.80 range in the 1/8 mile!

That is where racing is going unfortunately. The younger generation doesn't want to spend money on a car that goes "slow." They would rather slap nitrous on a 5.0 mustang or a v8 s10.

The only person I have seen around my age, or 10 years older rather, was started by their family. Haven't seen someone really jump into it from a younger generation, however I could be wrong.

I do not believe allowing the import cars would change anything. Kids that race these days just would rather go fast. Don't understand rules, or why someone would use a quadrajet or thermoquad carb to race.

Originally Posted by Michael Beard (Post 387317)

I've been hearing the doom and gloom "there's no new young racers" since *I* was a kid.

Brandon Peterson
Charles Myers
Cody Phillips
Corey Taylor
Travis Womble, Jr.
Joel Warren
CJ Perry
Tabitha Draughon
Hillarey Sloan
Jamie Southards
Lee Norton
Michael Crumpler
Jake Sealey
Amanda Manuel
Courtney Young
Tyler Bell
Kevin Riner
Cameron Collins
Curtis Smith, Jr.
Jamie Holston
Mike Longhaney
Jeff Longhaney
Eddie Longhaney
Corey Lucas
Cam Tingen

...and that's just in the Carolinas, off the top of my head.

Originally Posted by Michael Beard (Post 387317)

I've been hearing the doom and gloom "there's no new young racers" since *I* was a kid.

Brandon Peterson
Charles Myers
Cody Phillips
Corey Taylor
Travis Womble, Jr.
Joel Warren
CJ Perry
Tabitha Draughon
Hillarey Sloan
Jamie Southards
Lee Norton
Michael Crumpler
Jake Sealey
Amanda Manuel
Courtney Young
Tyler Bell
Kevin Riner
Cameron Collins
Curtis Smith, Jr.
Jamie Holston
Mike Longhaney
Jeff Longhaney
Eddie Longhaney
Corey Lucas
Cam Tingen

...and that's just in the Carolinas, off the top of my head.

Originally Posted by Bobby Fazio (Post 387331)

How many of them know how to finance/build/maintain a class car after their father's or grandfather's pass away? I'll be the first to admit that I won't be able to.

Originally Posted by Michael Colaluca (Post 387335)

I was talking about this the other day with my wife and some others.

There are hardly any more cars trailered on an open trailer and a pick up, or even a small motor home. What do we see when we go to the track? We see stacker trailers and toterhomes as the regular.

What 20-30 year old person can afford that? Surely you can do it cheaper. I go to the track in a 1986 fleetwood and an enclosed trailer. On top of that, you have the cost of the stocker. A stocker engine will easily run you 10+ depending on the combo of course. Then you add fuel and entry, it makes it quite difficult. This isnt the 1960s and 70s where they run stock and super stock at your local track every weekend. It seems that if you want to run your car on the weekends, you can go bracket racing. (Thanks, but I would rather save the engine that I saved up for.)

If you want the younger crowd to bring their own cars, if seems that a whole different eliminator will need to be created. I enjoy this class as much as anyone, and will probably race in it until I cant anymore. I just don't see a 28 yr old buying a 20-30-or 40 thousand dollar stocker, when he can get a 275 or a 10.5 car.

If I am wrong, please let me know.

Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 387315)

I've been saying this to deaf, SELFISH ears to years. Decrease the amount of classes which will push towards more heads-up runs, make those that try, try harder and sponsors will be happier all at the same time. I know that the two out of two OEM's I've spoken to whole heartedly agree with me and I've not communicated with the 3rd OEM representative.
How to do this? Simple. Combine classes like Top Stock; I.e., A-B-C race together on B weight, D-E-F race together on E weight, and so on down the line. At the same time, combine sticks and autos.
This gets shot down due to those trying to protect their turfs, plain and simple. But I'd rather loose a small turf than the whole turf.
I'm at Boy Scout camp this entire week. It's a lot more rewarding than drag racing but I see the politicos here too. Damn, everybody's got an agenda and turf to protect!

Originally Posted by Gary Smith (Post 387348)

Unfortunately the very reason I got so obsessed with class racing may be the very reason of it's impeding doom - over complexity to the average spectator. When you count the number of designations, confusing rules, unexplainable slower cars, bracket-index-breakouts, it's no wonder the average fan ends up walking away from the stands. And as I've said before, lack of self-marketing from most racers to non-traditional outlets (car-shows, seminars, other varying non-motorsport venue solicitation) and less than desirable engagement with spectators continues to seal the fate of Stock & Super Stock. It is no longer up to the "HRAs" to sustain its future, but the participants and supporters.

Originally Posted by partsbob67 (Post 387421)

do you think this would help or hurt? cut the classes and also go to a spec type engine program where you use edelbrock heads for your engine and a 750 or 850 holley carb. now I realize this doesn't work for the 6 cyl guys and some other combos, but it could cut some of the cost of building and maintaining a combo. it's seems like that is what they are doing with the new cars, why not spread the wealth?

Originally Posted by partsbob67 (Post 387421)

do you think this would help or hurt? cut the classes and also go to a spec type engine program where you use edelbrock heads for your engine and a 750 or 850 holley carb. now I realize this doesn't work for the 6 cyl guys and some other combos, but it could cut some of the cost of building and maintaining a combo. it's seems like that is what they are doing with the new cars, why not spread the wealth?

Originally Posted by Ken Miele (Post 387489)

With all do respect to RJ, this subject comes up every so often. Stock and Super Stock are doing just fine. Its not coming to the end, its just changing. Life is dynamic as is racing. The class has been changing ever since it was created. Currently there are more competition numbers in stock then ever before.

Granted there are things that need to be addressed, but for the most part racers still have fun and look forward to going racing. Just look at the entry's for Chicago and Norwalk, there are close to a 1000 cars entered.

As Michael listed there are new young racers in stock and super stock and it looks about right compared to when I was young. Back in the seventy’s when I got into racing, I did not know anyone that was interested in Class Racing. Everyone in the neighborhood had hot rods, mostly muscle cars. We went to the track every once in awhile, but most of our racing was on the street. Most of us could not afford a truck and trailer and a race car. You would need at least $10,000 to $15,000 to have a racing operation. Most of us only made $150-200 a week as a teenager or 20 something.

I think its more affordable today to have a class car. A 80’s 5.0 mustang, truck and trailer could be had for $20,000 to $25,000. Even cheaper if you work at it. Most things today cost 4 times as much as they did in 1975.

I grew up in Queens New York, there were lots of kids who didn’t care about cars or racing, just like today. I don’t see it being much different today. In the mid 80’s when I started class racing the fans would leave the stands after the pro’s ran and would filter through the pits to look at not only the pro’s, but sportsmen also, just like today. I also remember some of the older class racers saying, “there’s no way class racing will be around in the next 20 years, there is not enough young people interested and NHRA does not give a dam about us, we're are only filler”

Guys, Class Racing will be around as long as NHRA is around. The sky is not falling, yes its expensive to race, but it was expensive for a young person back in the seventy's. Heck most racers thought it would be the end of all racing in the seventy’s. Fuel was skyrocketing, very few performance cars were coming out of Detroit. Good jobs were hard to come by. The more things change, the more they stay the same someone once said.... Class racing is changing.... not ending.