Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

That would be an incorrect assumption.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Don't stir the pot Todd! The elders don't like it.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

I can see why your discussion with Pat was....."lively".

"THEY" are running them because they are allowed to. The cars would be fast even if they weren't allowed to run the bars.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

If you slow down the front end travel on a small tired Stocker you always run the risk of spinning the tires.

So you run the front end loose and if you have a car that is prone to doing wheelstands in good air and traction conditions you might find your up too high on the launch......If you lift you will probably cause some damage.....oil pan.....front end.....If you don't you could unload one tire when the rear sheet metal contacts the ground and wind up hitting something........like the guardrail or even the tree or the car in the other lane....

You have a 3 speed trans with a fairly steep rear gear and that makes a very low starting line ratio....and anyone whoever raced a Stocker knows the biggest ET gains are in the first 100 feet or so.....

If all this wasn't true all the cars that had powerglides and are now allowed 3 speeds would not have bothered to make the change.,....

I drove my old car a couple years ago when the present owner offered it to me for a couple races. It was doing some pretty high wheelies......I asked for the wheelie bars and put them on as I really did not want to hurt the car. It did a very high wheelie at the Dutch with the bars on and might have been a problem without them on for that run.....

Late model F-bodied Stockers are well known for doing big wheelstands and I recall one set of pictures form E-Town of a car that popped the hatch open when the rear bodywork dragged the ground....NO BARS....and it was pretty sideways when it came down......

I think it is rediculous to say a high class Stocker can be adjusted so it does not need bars.....If it is a wheelsatnd prone car like many it needs the bars.....and it is for safety....

Oh and the present owner of the car I was driving told me the reason he BLEW the Tires off at the E-Town Nationals in his other car was because he went a little to tight on the front end.....and that the only way to insure the car would hook was to do exactly what I told him two years ago .....leave the front end loose and use the bars......

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Fast is relative. You are really very quick with the assumptions. They run the bars because they make the cars safer not because they are allowed.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here a little.

My own car is a heads up, N/A car. Car weighs 2960 with driver and has 54% of the weight on the nose. It's got a conventional headed BBC that makes between 1100 and 1200 hp. The converter flashes to 7000 rpm, 4.57 rear gear on a 275/60 DOT drag radial tire which is 28" tall and has 10" of tread.

The car runs 5.0's at 137 mph and has 60'd a best of 1.129.

I'm just sharing this as there has been some misinformation when the heads up stuff was brought up.

I have used bars for several years, but when I started running this new class they are illegal, so I was forced to figure out how to run the car without them and keep the front end down. No it's not easy and if you make a bad tuning call it will go up (much quicker and more violent than a stocker).

Now, last I knew stockers weren't allowed travel limiters, but S/S was correct?

I'll also concede that lower HP cars need some weight transfer to get up on the tire where a higher HP car can plant it with power.

I will say this, I'm glad I no longer use the bars. They were a PITA as far as I'm concerned. It also makes you work harder to find the right setup for the days track/weather conditions as well as the tuneup you have in the car. That to me is a fun challenge even if I fail to get it right.

I would ask this. If bars were suddenly made illegal on stockers, would those who run just park their cars, or would you buckle down and figure out a way to make it work without them?

Stock and S/S are great classes, some of my favorites by far. I kinda treat mine as if I was running S/S on small tires & stock suspension as far as running as hard as possible to the 60 & 330.

And I do understand you can't easily compare low & high HP cars when it comes to some of this stuff.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

If wheellie bars were illegal in stock i'd buy some 205/70/15 radials,a powerglide, and run the dog squat nationals! And go 10.90's and 310 mph lol!

I really can't believe these guys are worried about a notch in the valance panel with all the other stuff that is legal in stock lol.

That's my .08 cents worth lol!

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

No doubt the no-notch rule is silly. I guess the NHRA folks had no real reason for the rule other than maybe looks which is why they got flustered with the OP's questions & dialogue.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

I don't even have a notch in the bumper and just think its silly! Some cars need a little notch to make the bars work right in my opinion.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Being the Devil's advocate is cool. You listed several important reasons for the the use of wheelie bars and then implied (knuckle down) that racers were taking the easy way out by using them. The builders and racers use them because they offer substantial protection for driver and race car. Wheelie bars have worked for years and will continue to do so even if there are a few people in the tech department who don't understand their importance. And that is the reason I started this thread - the huge disconnect between the rule book reading tech department staff and the racers.

So your question of either parking the cars or changing them is based on something that will never happen and offers a false premise. No, I don't think you are trying to be tricky. But, the executives at nhra would never ever take away a piece of safety equipment that could result in serious legal exposure for injury or death. Remember this safety equipment was openly supported and approved by nhra personel and then published in the Dragster when accepted..

Another point to remember is that many of us build and work on our own cars and for some the wheelie bars offer a greater amount of protection. The legal folks at nhra know this as well.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

I think using small tire, heads up cars in a comparison of safety is a bit of a bad idea, especially when talking about an item that is primarily for crash avoidance.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Yes, I noticed that. And I might add to that "uneducated, misinformed and inexperienced."

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

I have a red wagon full of shocks both front and rear, two junk "K" members (Newsome has four), two weight boxes in back, an adjustable weight bar in front, several different sets of travel limiters, four wheel scales, adjustable chip for the starting line, and an October 2002 picture of my car on one wheel on DRC. If the wind changes direction or speed to a head wind a high torque car is doomed if it gets "up", because hydraulic pressure will not let it down without wrecking something.

Gosh I hate getting old. I forgot to mention oil pans, four bent 15X4 wheels, and one firewall that got compression bent when I aborted a run. Most of the damage to my car was done without wheelie bars, but some was done learning how to run with bars.

My car makes in the high 5's for power but makes in the 6's for torque just below the flash of the converter.

Is this a manufactures rule for Factory Showdown? The drive by wire cars do not need wheelie bars but the cable cars do?

I will fix my rear panel before the Chicago race and let the bars starting hitting the paint and bending the sheet metal.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Larry,

They sent an email that said the notches must be fixed by Aug. 28, 2013. Sounds like you don't have to make the changes before the Chicago National. I know Bruce Bachelder is skipping a few of the Nationals this year but I would ask for a few minutes of his time if he is in Chicago.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

It's an insane deal that needs fixed. Maybe they can talk to some chassis shop owners for more information. I don't have a Stocker, but do work with Patterson's COPO some, and know what that thing can do at times. I would not want to drive that thing without wheelie bars. The track can just come around a little and it will decide to go straight up. Very touchy deal. So, they need to tear up the rear fascia when it decides to do that? Makes no sense.

A talk with one of the guys at ATI explained why the local big block 10.5" nitrous cars can hook on one stage of nitrous when my 350" SS Firebird would spin on the same track & tires. Stock & SS converters hit much harder than what they sell to bracket racers and small tire heads up cars. He said with my converter those small tire heads up cars would never touch the ground. But, their cars are just like ours, right? LOL

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Don't know who you spoke to but you nor he can make that blanket statement!

My cars equipped with ATI converters have gone 1.28 60 foot at 3880 lbs. and 1.17 60 foot at 3144 lbs. launched of the footbrake and with less gear than a comparable stock/super stocker. Show me one B/SA stocker Chevelle or one GT/AA 4th Gen Firebird that has done the same.

Oh and I agree stockers don't NEED wheelie bars. Plenty of stockers new and old running without them. There are ways to control the front end with shocks and springs. My chevelle launched wheels up for thousands of passes without them too and on small radial slicks...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbKYio6OvKM"]THE PROOF IS IN THE PERFORMANCE - YouTube[/ame]


and this guy don't have them last I saw at ETown...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X91mgz6b7AU"]2012 COPO Camaro Testing - Victor Cagnazzi Racing, Dave Connolly and Brian Macy - YouTube[/ame]

The NHRA screwed up when they allowed you guys to run fuel cells, THAT made running wheelie bars much easier with the removal of the stock gas tank. Now the cry for allowing notches, what's next? These cars are already anything but "stock"!

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Do you really think we are interested in seeing ANOTHER picture of one of your cars???
Nobody cares!

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

a man of your age showing his jealousy is pathetic.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Sir, I can assure you that no one on the board is envious of anything you have or have achieved in your life. It is you that demonstrates envy and frustration on a regular basis.

It's fine with us if you offer your thoughts but they mean nothing since you are not racing in our classes. You can go out to the track and risk flipping over your bracket cars all you want but the majority of us have more sense than you.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Ed,
You are beating a dead horse.
For years on message boards you have shared what worked for you and have gotten the same responses. Your head must hurt beating it against the wall.
From the point of view of class racers, you've never jumped in just ran a couple of cars that may have been stock or super stock legal other than engine and trans. Have some friends who are or have been class racers. Never ran either of those cars at a division or national event to experience the track conditions which are not the same as a bracket race at the same facility.
For credibility sake why not jump in?
Other than that you are stirring the pot, contributing nothing the original OP issue. But it is fun!

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

X2

Really weird how the non Stock racers (including NHRA management) have one opinion, and pretty much everyone racing a Stocker has a different. Have we heard from 1 single C and up stocker that says they don't need them for safety? I know for a fact that you need to get big block first gen Camaros on the bumper for it to hook every time. Wheelie bars are for safely launching a higher class stocker. Not bracket junk like the 1320 experts. These guys have zero clue about a stocker but hey, they know everything about racing, down to every foot of the drag strip.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Ed 1320 using wheelie bars that are not NEEDED?

http://classracer.com/classforum/alb...pictureid=5265

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

I think some of you are missing the point here. The argument is not whether stockers can control wheel stands without wheelie bars, the argument is whether or not it is safer, more cost friendly, and damage preventative to have wheelie bars?

I don't think anyone here believes that you can't control wheelstands without wheelie bars but most want to protect themselves from the risk of damaging there cars. With the drag racing community already being down, why would anyone want to risk damaging their cars by not running wheelie bars. We had our first uncontrollable wheelstand in our bracket car a few weeks ago and with us being on a budget, we are already considering wheelie bars for safety and to help control the car in unpredictable circumstances. Replacing parts is expensive and I don't see how anyone could suggest running without them with the only justification being "Its more stock appearing" or "saying their sissy sticks". Notches should be allowed to accommodate that in my opinion.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Because I want to race every week. Because I'm not going to take 3-4 days off from work to be told I have to park 1/2 mile away in some muddy field that I'll need to be towed out of if it rains while I sit waiting to run at a moments notice on a track that is either too cold or not prepped properly. Because I do/can race for more $ every week. Because I'm not going to spend $100K+ on a state of the art purpose built class car to run on tracks that are worse then one would find on a test/tune day. Because I refuse to be treated like the filler and also ran that you class racers are. Because I'm not going to tear my junk down so they can look for some minor infraction while the NHRA KNOWS most every stock eliminator competitor is running with heads/manifolds that have been ported. Because I'm not going to sticker my car up only to have to beg some manufactures for contingency money. Because you and some of your competitors think what you do is special while WE know you too are bracket racing and just paying more for the nhra class racing experience. :D

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Certainly all good points ..........But then explain why you are hanging out here with diehard class racers who in your opinion must be nuts .If you're just here trying to pee on our Wheaties it won't be long till you suffer the same fate as you did on other boards ...........

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

every time i take the wheelie bars off i do DAMAGE! costley damage.and it is a safety factor end of story. if i did not need them i would not have them cuz i don't want to carry the weight.and yes i could make my car not stand up BUT with the bad starting lines i dont want to take that chance.one time at a IHRA race at red river raceway Larry and Patsey hill can back me up on this one.i went 288ft on the rear wheels and had to get out of it cuz it was about to blow over.so no i don't need notches (but) they need to allow them.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

jack, belive it or not, not everyone that posts and lurks here is a stock/super stock racer. I post here offering first hand advice where I can and my opinion on other subjects no different than anyone else. No where did I see in the rules for this forum that it was required that all posters must be an active stock/super stock racers.

That said, this is ken's playground and if he wants to stop me from posting 1st hand advice and as well my opinion on various commentaries because it doesn't conform to what those with higher posts counts feel, that's his choice.

The truth and the facts are what they are despite those that refuse to believe or agree!

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

http://www.looserocker.com/fff/2011/begley.jpg

Should've taken the bars off at Coastal Plains. Might've given Alan Farmer's Dart a run for his money. 'Course Alan hurt the car after coming down from a massive wheelstand.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Jumped right on that like a bass on a June Bug :eek: Didn't Ya!
The Bracket Finals is run like a points race and you would not miss that!

Much of what you state is only partially true.
Just point of view and experience. How ever limited.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

EVERYTHING I stated is TRUE and some of your competitors have told me so, competitors that have been doing this far longer than you. Since you don't compete at every divisional or national event, your experience is limitied!

Without question the bracket final is another nhra circus event that I and many others have grown tired of too.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

If this were the 80's maybe.

Wheelie Bars took some of the Stock out of Stock.

But they are definitely cool, in fact modernized upper Stock Classes.

Since the 80's 9.99 was the hot lap.
Today 8.90's are the hot laps.

It is what it has to be !
NHRA cannot go back on it because it is about safety.

D

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

It is not about safety, it's all about wheelies are cool, exciting to do and watch.


Michael, any damage to that car is the result of Alan's decision to run it that way. There was no good reason for him to be on the bumper every pass!

BTW, I've broken my wheelie bars twice to date. Removed them, tightened up my front shock extension and went from a wheelie in the photo to none at all

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Because something is your opinion it doesn't make it fact or the truth .........That and you have absolutely no first hand advise not being a Stock / SuperStock racer as most of us are .

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

it's advice jack and again, everything I have stated about the NHRA class racing experience is true and fact, based on what I have seen with my own eyes, what I have read here on this forum and elsewhere and what I have been told by friends that are stock/super stock, super gas, super comp and super street racers for a long time.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

1320 said:
Don't know who you spoke to but you nor he can make that blanket statement!

I don't guess I was clear. ATI builds converters for the other kinds of cars I mentioned, he said they don't build the SAME converter for all the different kinds of cars I mentioned. He said if you put my SS converter in a "10.5 shoot out" car they would just blow the tires off. I used to run local et brackets, I could set the shocks and limiters and it was fine all day. At national events we have the fuel cars, etc, running also. The track changes all weekend. The starting line "is like a box of chocolates".
I'm sure lower powered cars don't have as much a problem with as a blown CJ or COPO. Your cars and your racing is more different from ours than you appear to think.

Am I jealous of you? Really? Not real sure why you would think so.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

If bars were solely for safety reasons, then why are they not made mandatory by NHRA instead of optional as they are now?

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Jeez, that's so obvious. They are not mandatory because not all cars need them.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

I think this is a VERY good question!

No one wants to see anyone's car damaged as a result of a wheelie. With the cars that have notched the rear valance, is there another wheelie bar design that would work without having to notch anything? Something similar to what John Calvert had on his Thunderbolt? I would hate to see a situation like Larry stated where the bars would crunch up the rear of a car because of this ruling to not allow the notches.

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

I guess its time for me to chime in again. Ed(1320racer), I have received numerous emails to have you banned. While you are not breaking any rules at the moment, your constant ego driven responses are just getting old. Can you not just give it a rest. Knowing everything about everything must make hanging out at the track with you a nightmare. Thankfully you have chose not to run NHRA Div, and Nat. events.

I'm sure many here will agree that banning someone for an opinion is wrong. I get enough heat from some members thinking I ban members because I don't agree with them. I have been accused of hating bracket racers, super classes, and any other class that has nothing to do with stock and super stock.

My suggestion to all is to ignore Ed, he will eventually go away. Even if he does not, he will be irrelevant.

If everyone feels he should be removed in spite of my suggestion, either post here or email or pm me.


Ken

Re: Wheelie Bars are not needed for Safety on Stockers!
 

Ken,

This assclown has been irrelevant for as long as I can remember. I choose to ignore it. Remember, as our good friend Larry once said, You cant fix stupid.

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